Week 9: Bills @ Bengals Game Thread

[HoosierCat]

Baby:

Bengals RB Joe Mixon was limited at today's practice with a chest injury, according to the team's injury report.
 

Ugh. Most of the offense runs through Mixon and Chase atm. Hope it’s not serious.

[AMPHAR]

2 hours ago, Stripes said:

Having a competent receiving threat at TE expands the playbook, makes the Bengals less predictable, opens otherwise narrowed route trees, and provides insurance if one of the three receivers is injured. It isn't the most important thing in the world, but it's certainly valuable.

Its just not that important with this current group of skill guys.    The last two games, 8/9 guys are getting targets/receptions.  They currently running various formations and route combo because they have so much talent and versatility in the WR core.

Hayden Hurst who was very competent usually got 60-70% snaps in games he was active.   Mostly because Sample got hurt then Irwin emerged late October and pushed more and more for snaps.    In the games Hayden played in he averaged 5 targets, 31 yards.    Irv Smith was right around that vs. SF and they have Sample for blocking, Irwin and Iosivas a considerable reduced snap count.    Irv missed out on two big plays this year that stunt his numbers.  1st was vs. Ravens were he didn't get the 2nd toe down.  2nd was vs. Seattle were he was wide open and Joe couldn't throw to him because the interior allowed pressure.

  This offense is going to be back on track and eventually a week will come up were the offense runs 70+ plays or the  TE will be a factor based on match up and opportunity.   I would take Hayden Hurst back but he'd be facing the same numbers crunch as any other TE.   If he was back he would not walk into his last year snap count number and doubtful he'd be more productive than last year.  

Eventually Chase Brown and Jones will be back and could even make crunch more competitive.  

 

[ArmyBengal]

I think Hurst and Uzomah both were known threats to make plays. Even if they weren’t involved they had to be accounted for. No one really cares what Smith or any other TE is doing for the most part. They are no threat to the defense. Just my take.

[COB]

Agreed.  Hurst and Uzomah both made big plays and could be counted on.  The current crop = drops and fumbles.  Which is why they got Hudson on the roster.  Smith shows promise but needs to develop.  
 

Drew Sample - on a one year deal that pays him one million.  23 tight ends in the league make an average of $5 million.  He’s compensated fairly, a blocking tight end who’s ok.  Pretty much any catches he makes are a bonus.  We seriously need Irv Smith to develop and stay healthy.  

[ArmyBengal]

Honestly, I was excited when they added Irv Smith.  Both Burrow and Chase seemed really excited and he was at 100% health wise.
I even gave a pass for the fact that Burrow's calf was bothering him far longer than most would admit to.
However, once back on course and the Bengals started their current 3 game win streak, Smith has had 5 catches for 30 yards, no TD's and a fumble.
Another aspect to consider is that while Hurst wasn't breaking receiving TD records, he was making plays for first downs.
26 of Hurst's 52 catches were for first downs.  Smith has managed 2 first downs in his 10 catches.
CJ's last season with us?  Yep, 24 of 49 receptions went for first downs.

It's not to say Burrow and Smith can't get things going from here on out, I'm just not placing my bet on it happening.
I will rooting for it, cheering Smith on, but something tells me there will be more cussing than cheering.

Side note:
Drew Sample as a 2nd round pick still irritates the hell out of me.
I should really let that go.  Maybe a therapist could help me work that out.
Hokie, where you at brother ??

[AMPHAR]

Can't play more than 11 on offense and there's only 1 ball.   The offense struggled early and people are on a witch hunt.   Bengals continue to churn out first downs and run 60+ plays eventually the TE group will eat in one or more these games. 

Irv Smith is more athletic than Hayden or CJ (which were very athletic).   It will come.   Volson/Karras don't give up pressure and Irv would have had a 60+ yard play and this isn't even a target.   

If your favorite team is going to AFC Champ games.  The 2nd round pick is playing and has a role even as a blocking TE,  Let it go they obviously know what they are doing. 

 

[HoosierCat]

31 minutes ago, AMPHAR said:

Bengals continue to churn out first downs

Chase and Mixon do. Everyone else? Eh, not so much.

Of the 82 firsts the offense has generated through the air, 40 have come from Chase. The next closest guy is Tee with...13. On the ground, Mixon has 26 of 36 firsts (and 7 of the rest belong to Burrow).

As for the TEs eating, well, if they're going to catch up to last year (and the Bengals were hardly devoid of WR talent in 2022) they're going to have to make like a hot dog eating contest. Haden and Wilcox combined for 32 first downs last year. This year, through seven games Irv and Tanner have 2 apiece.

Last year, the Bengals had eight players who generated double-digit first downs rushing or receiving (or in Mixon and Perine's cases, both). This year so far they have four. At his current pace, Irwin will make it five by the end of the year.

Bottom line, the offense isn't as versatile as it was last year, and the missing production from Hurst (and Perine) is clearly part of the reason why. Sure, as seen in SF they can still move the ball and score without them, but you better pray nothing happens to Chase (missed 5 games in 2022) or Mixon (limited with a chest injury this week) because they are in trouble if either one misses time.

[ArmyBengal]

No one is on a witch hunt. 

Merely pointing out that Smith isn't involved to this point, unless someone is arguing that 10 catches in 7 games is productive.
No TD's, a fumble and 2 first downs.  There was only one ball for Hurst and CJ as well, but they made an impact.
Again, I will be cheering for Smith, but he has not made an impact.  One ball is not a good argument.

My argument about Sample isn't that there's a role for a blocking TE or not.  Of course there is.
The problem is the guy was a relative unknown that we just had to have in the second round.
He wasn't a second round talent and his college production was next to zero until his senior year which was average at best.
Hardly the guy you target in the 2nd round of the draft, not to mention other TE's still on the board that year.
Worse is overlooking the other talent still on the board.  The next 7 picks were WR's.  4 have been to the pro bowl.

[AMPHAR]

2 hours ago, HoosierCat said:

Chase and Mixon do. Everyone else? Eh, not so much.

Of the 82 firsts the offense has generated through the air, 40 have come from Chase. The next closest guy is Tee with...13. On the ground, Mixon has 26 of 36 firsts (and 7 of the rest belong to Burrow).

As for the TEs eating, well, if they're going to catch up to last year (and the Bengals were hardly devoid of WR talent in 2022) they're going to have to make like a hot dog eating contest. Haden and Wilcox combined for 32 first downs last year. This year, through seven games Irv and Tanner have 2 apiece.

Last year, the Bengals had eight players who generated double-digit first downs rushing or receiving (or in Mixon and Perine's cases, both). This year so far they have four. At his current pace, Irwin will make it five by the end of the year.

Bottom line, the offense isn't as versatile as it was last year, and the missing production from Hurst (and Perine) is clearly part of the reason why. Sure, as seen in SF they can still move the ball and score without them, but you better pray nothing happens to Chase (missed 5 games in 2022) or Mixon (limited with a chest injury this week) because they are in trouble if either one misses time.

Better start cooking hot dogs

 

[TJJackson]

4 hours ago, ArmyBengal said:

Side note:

Drew Sample as a 2nd round pick still irritates the hell out of me.
I should really let that go.  Maybe a therapist could help me work that out.
Hokie, where you at brother ??

opportunity missed.....we could done a seance on Halloween and had my gramma straighten your ass out

[AMPHAR]

2 hours ago, ArmyBengal said:

No one is on a witch hunt. 

Merely pointing out that Smith isn't involved to this point, unless someone is arguing that 10 catches in 7 games is productive.
No TD's, a fumble and 2 first downs.  There was only one ball for Hurst and CJ as well, but they made an impact.
Again, I will be cheering for Smith, but he has not made an impact.  One ball is not a good argument.

My argument about Sample isn't that there's a role for a blocking TE or not.  Of course there is.
The problem is the guy was a relative unknown that we just had to have in the second round.
He wasn't a second round talent and his college production was next to zero until his senior year which was average at best.
Hardly the guy you target in the 2nd round of the draft, not to mention other TE's still on the board that year.
Worse is overlooking the other talent still on the board.  The next 7 picks were WR's.  4 have been to the pro bowl.

Yeah but side stepping the point, I think.    CJ or Hayden would not have saved this offense from Burrow's issues weeks 1-6.   Anyone with an honest bone will admit there were not catches to be made or yards to be gained in those first 6 because he simply wasn't accurate.   They got completely shut down in 2 games.  A 3rd the Ravens played keep away.   4th/5th/6th they absolutely left points on the board and many of that stemming from player error.

Hayden averaged 4 catches and 32 yards in his first 7 games.   Irv Smith hasn't even played 7 games and vs. SF he was about as involved as Hayden with 4 catches 25 yards while losing snaps to Sample, Irwin, Iosivas.

With a Healthy Burrow this offense is going to continue to Churn out first downs, run more plays and eventually some TE on the team or a combo will put the witch hunt to bed.  There's no way in hell with a healthy Burrow they are only going to gain 260 yards per game the rest of the way.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ArmyBengal]

Cool, I will be standing by waiting on Smith to do something other than fumble.
Like I said, I will be cheering him on.

Go Irv !!

[HoosierCat]

It seems like it ought to be noted that opportunities for the tight ends don't appear to be limited much this year versus last season. TEs averaged 5.4 targets a game in 2022 compared to 4.1 so far this season. The problem is that half those targets this year have been at Irv, who sucks.

OTOH, Hudson's few targets (6) have resulted in 4 catches for 48 yards, a 12-yard average that atm leads the team. (And yes, I fully expect that will drop with more receptions.)

This is why I fully support Anybody But Irv at TE.

[HoosierCat]

Hendrickson back at practice today.

[Stripes]

I suggested at some point that I think Hudson can be Trenton Irwin as a tight end. I have a strange and unfounded confidence in him, and I didn't even think he should make the roster in the first place. I saw a little something against the Rams that made me rethink that. We'll see if 1) he gets any actual opportunities, and 2) if so, if my confidence is appropriate.

[AMPHAR]

20 hours ago, ArmyBengal said:

I think Hurst and Uzomah both were known threats to make plays. Even if they weren’t involved they had to be accounted for. No one really cares what Smith or any other TE is doing for the most part. They are no threat to the defense. Just my take.

Iosivas scored his 2nd career TD,  while 4 defenders surrounded Sample, lol    

Boyd scored his TD after motion into a bunch formation with Smith and Higgins.   9ers elected man coverage on that bunch which left Boyd open versus a better match up.

Go look for yourself its on JTO's, Caskey and Lap's film review.

 

 

[TJJackson]

Looking forward to seeing Hudson play vs Bills

[ArmyBengal]

35 minutes ago, AMPHAR said:

Iosivas scored his 2nd career TD,  while 4 defenders surrounded Sample, lol    

Boyd scored his TD after motion into a bunch formation with Smith and Higgins.   9ers elected man coverage on that bunch which left Boyd open versus a better match up.

Go look for yourself its on JTO's, Caskey and Lap's film review.

So now your argument is that Sample is so dominating that defenses are covering him with 4 players?

Couldn't the same be said for any player on the field?  Meaning that the better matchup is going to get the ball most of the time?
When has the skill of our TE's been so on point that they created the better matchup?

Still not sure why you are so hell bent on this?  I'm going to root for your boy regardless of how much I think he sucks.

[HoosierCat]

Mixon full today, good news.

[HoosierCat]

5 hours ago, Stripes said:

I suggested at some point that I think Hudson can be Trenton Irwin as a tight end. I have a strange and unfounded confidence in him, and I didn't even think he should make the roster in the first place. I saw a little something against the Rams that made me rethink that. We'll see if 1) he gets any actual opportunities, and 2) if so, if my confidence is appropriate.

The weird thing about Hudson is that his career history is one of getting very few opportunities yet being quite effective on the rare occasions he appears.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HudsTa00.htm
 

For example he has a total of 19 career receptions, almost all of which, 14, were first downs.

Last year he was 10/15 for 132 yards and 8 first downs.

Currently Irv is 10/15 for 57 yards and 2 first downs.

And before we talk about how Burrow was hampered in September, remember Hudson’s QB last year was Daniel Jones.

[COB]

Watching this Steeler Titans game on Prime.  Al Michaels sounds like he’s watching his neighbor pull their car into the garage.  Dude’s just plain tuckered out.

[COB]

Still in the first quarter.  There have been 9 penalties already.

[COB]

Will Levis makes great throw under intense pressure, Al Michaels doesn’t even notice.  

[Stripes]

Al Michaels sounds like he just took an Ambien while reading a 24 year old issue of Reader’s Digest on the toilet.

[COB]

Yay Derek Henry!  He’s bullying the Steelers.