Post-Draft Chatter

[membengal]

I wasn't attacking you , but responding to your strawman rejoinder. Bengals CLEARLY didn't want to trade up and reach for a TE. They wanted to accumulate a draft pick(s) not relinquish them. Just noting, for all of the consternation from bengals world over the TE room - this is NOT an offense that is TE highlighted in any manner in terms of the passing game. If a dynamic pass-catcher came into the room, they would actually have to adjust their approach - which, I am sure, they can - but a guy like Mayer clearly was not valued as such a guy by the coaches. Maybe Kincaid might have been, but he was gone. Maybe LaPorta but no way in hades they were gonna burn picks to move from 60 to the high 30s to secure him.

 

[HoosierCat]

Show me where I said they should have reached for a TE. Spoiler: I didn’t. I said they could have been more proactive and accumulated picks to take one, which is exactly what Potts said they hoped to do going into the draft. They had multiple opportunities to do so, but decided not to each time. Well, we’re going to find out if it was the right call soon enough.

[AMPHAR]

I think its completely fair to ding the Bengals draft for not landing a TE.  A LITTLE.  I wouldn't go overboard in doing so.  

Like anything with the draft we'll see.    Irv Smith has 15 starts in 4 seasons and more alarming played 8 games the last 2.   There's a good chance a TE they could have gotten in this draft will out produce Irv IF he gets injured, maybe even if he stays healthy. 

Then again Myles Murphy grabs you 8 sacks, put Mahomes down in the 4th quarter of AFC Champ game and Irv gives them a healthy season and grabs a TD in the AFC Champ.   Nobody is going to give a hoot about not drafting a TE.

I think they traded an opportunity in getting pass rush for solving TE.  They've been good at finding productive TEs.   No problem with what they did.   There will always be "what ifs"

 

 

[HoosierCat]

Lol so true…

 

[ArmyBengal]

It's funny.  I've never really given much thought to how young these guys are.
Pretty much all football players are in their 20's with a smaller amount in their 30's.
Almost all are an afterthought when they hit 40.

The Military isn't far off that either when it comes to the enlisted side of things.
Most of us join early and are done.  By the time I was 40, I had 21 years in and my body couldn't keep it up.
Now that I'm 53, I have to stretch in the morning just to be able to walk right and there's a level of pain that just comes with the territory, which I don't even complain about.  I have to get above a 5 for it to be worthy mentioning.

Running backs, linebackers and those positions that take most of the hits must feel 80 by the time they are 30.

[HoosierCat]

Years ago there was a “life after football” thing done, I don’t remember if it was nfl or ESPN or someone else, featuring Jerome Bettis. If I recall correctly it was only a couple years after he retired. They had a scene of him getting out of bed and it was like watching an 80 year old move. Every joint in his lower body was just shot. I think that was the first time the extent to which these guys were literally destroying themselves for my entertainment hit me. I will never blame anybody who chooses an “early” retirement from this sport.

[membengal]

Literal LouA teaching videos - he really is a clear communicator…

 

 

[membengal]

 

[COB]

How did we forget about Ben Brown?  We all have a mental block when it comes to that last name, that’s how.  (Zing!  JK, I am one of Mike’s biggest supporters).

[ArmyBengal]

I have a good friend who is a die hard Raiders fan and we were talking about their draft picks.
Then I went and took a look at their recent draft history and good Lord.

Since 2019, the last year of suck before Burrow, the Raiders have had 7 first round picks.  SEVEN !!
Of those 7 first rounders that you would expect to be a large part of what they are doing now, only 2 are still with the team.  RB Josh Jacobs and this year's first rounder Tyree Wilson.  Jacobs got the tag this year, isn't happy about it and isn't showing for practices.  He will no doubt be a Raider for at least the season, but good God.  Couple that with getting rid of their QB, Carr, their franchise passing leader, and there's little reason to be optimistic in Vegas.  

My point to all of this you may ask ??  Probably not...
It is so nice seeing our organization put together one solid draft after another and competing for Super Bowls.
These are good times my friends.  Good times !!

[HoosierCat]

It really, really, really helps that the organization has become much more willing to sign quality outside FAs to address needs. Case in point is the oline, where they’ve doled out nine figures worth of deals in the last 14 or so months. That gives them so much more opportunity to prioritize athleticism and talent in the draft, as opposed to having to draft a bunch of positions to fill holes. Ultimately, this is what “building through the draft” looks like, not the old strategy of tossing a bunch of rookies in to start year after year.

[ArmyBengal]

Agree with all of that Hoosier.  Long gone are the days of completely dismissing free agency as something other teams do, while we watch.  Something happened, probably a combination of somethings, when they fired Marvin, brought in Zac and started the rebuild the next year with Burrow.  Of course Burrow is a HUGE part of that something, but it was everything else that came along with it.  I wish my dad was still alive to see how much the team has turned the corner.  He was a fan from the start and is the one I credit for my love of football.  Much like I have been with my son.

[COB]

2 hours ago, ArmyBengal said:

Something happened, probably a combination of somethings, 

Included -  in the depths of our suckage I ate 4 heads of cabbage in one sitting to try to use the paranormal power of cabbage to influence Mike to spend some money for once.  I’m not bragging or anything, but if you think you can eat a lot of cabbage, I’m right here.

[AMPHAR]

I think the organization has clearly tweeked their FA approach from Marvin days.       But Marvin Lewis had talent.   His rosters from 2012-2015 were loaded.  

I think its important to recognize that.    Too much of the organizations changes since 2003 are overlooked mostly because Marvin couldn't deliver in prime time.     I think losing that first playoff game to the Steelers had a lot to do with it.  The pressure just grew.

Burrow has been huge for Zac.   They were able to rip that Bo Jackson curse off against the Raiders.   Burrow had a huge TD rolling to the sideline that is overlooked because a stupid ref blew his whistle early and that became the focus and takes the focus of how great that play truly was.   That's the "IT" factor that people are trying to define.

Then Pratt's Int saves the game from being stolen washing out the worse roughing the passer call EVER.

But IF that playoff game gets stolen from Zac.  The pressure and narrative of the history build.  Instead its changed forever.

I think it could have been different for Marvin, maybe if he doesn't lose Palmer and Henry on the first pass play of his first playoff game.     He had talent to have multiple playoff wins in his 16 year reign.

 

[Earendil]

19 hours ago, COB said:

Included -  in the depths of our suckage I ate 4 heads of cabbage in one sitting to try to use the paranormal power of cabbage to influence Mike to spend some money for once.  I’m not bragging or anything, but if you think you can eat a lot of cabbage, I’m right here.

Amateur. I ate 8 heads of cabbage every Sunday hoping the team wouldn't suck. The only thing I got out of it was a squeaky clean colon, which I promptly ruined by eating Arby's potato cakes.

[ArmyBengal]

Oh Marvin had talent, but the approach the organization took to bring in talent, was far different.  They brought in problem characters, thinking they could help and change them.  Henry, Pac-Man, Thurman, Burfict, the list goes on.  I loved those guys to be honest, but that chemistry is just a different mixture which never worked with an organization which was openly ridiculed for being cheap.  The whole thing was crazy toxic.

Marvin doesn't get much credit for getting the team out of the debacle of the 90's and getting them even back to 8-8, let alone getting to the playoffs.  Him not being able to win in the playoffs was his demise.  Kept losing playoff games, but was continually brought back.

I don't really care at this point, because like they always say, winning cures all.
I'm happy to be able to be a part of what's happening now !!

[HoosierCat]

All love to Marvin. I will be forever grateful for how he pulled the franchise out of the Lost Decade. That he never won a championship is a crying shame. But he had flaws as a head coach, the organization was still mired in the past, and plain old dumb luck — all of it bad — all factored into that. Still, if I’m ever in a restaurant someplace and I see him at another table, he’s not paying for dinner that night.

[HoosierCat]

RIP Jim Brown.

https://www.bengals.com/news/mike-brown-remembers-jim-brown-the-best-runner-i-ever-saw

[ArmyBengal]

I have a group of friends from grade school that have kept up with each other through the years and we met up last night. Turns out an old high school friend in our class is the father of Notre Dame TE, Michael Mayer. Really cool and was happy for him. Super proud dad !!

[membengal]

Today's Bengals mailbag from Dehner in the Athletic - gonna paste it here in honor of the spectacularly great opening question in the mailbag from someone who is clearly excellent at all things and devastatingly good looking- 

https://theathletic.com/4597755/2023/06/12/bengals-mailbag-otas-irv-smith/
 

Quote

 

The practices might be light for the Bengals right now, but the responses to a request for mailbag questions were not. So many of you fired off questions about Trey Hendrickson, DJ Reader and the veterans in the final year of their deals I opted to dedicate an entire story to it.

Here’s a collection of the 10 best of the rest as we approach minicamp this week, the final three days before everyone disappears for a break prior to training camp starting at the end of the July and, more importantly, clear the runway for Taylor Swift and the Swifties (and myself, my wife and my daughter) to take over the city in two weeks.

Here we go.

How well is Irv Smith moving/his fluidity etc.? Does he appear to be as good a mover on the field as Hayden Hurst was? More? Less? — Aaron Parker

If there can be a takeaway to an otherwise mundane, boring collection of practices thus far, it was that Smith moves quite well. You can spot the difference between him and Hurst, specifically, in running the seam. Smith made two nice receptions on Tuesday, twisting his body while running up the numbers for catches.

Smith looks (and runs) the part. Hurst did as well, but I do think the Bengals can feature him down the field more than they did Hurst. Last year, Hurst ranked 46th out of 57 qualifying tight ends in air yards per target (5.1).

Smith’s best year with the Vikings was 2020 when he ranked 15th in the league in air yards per target (7.8). Staying healthy continues to be the ominous variable over Smith’s career and the Bengals’ hopes at the position at this moment. For now, Smith looks more than capable of adding stretch to the field while playing in shorts.

Who is someone on the team we are not talking about enough? — Armani

I don’t know who everyone is talking about well enough to answer this question specifically. Maybe at Nine Giant in Pleasant Ridge everyone is talking about Charlie Jones and Sonder in Mason they love Dax Hill and Linnie’s on the West Side they are buzzing over Chase Brown. I’ve got ears to the ground at Fifty West and Madtree, but I’m only one man.

That said, one player I think everyone should be talking about at breweries across Cincinnati is Zach Carter. His development and potential jump in Year 2 represent a critical variable in assessing the ceiling for this defense. They must rush the passer better, specifically on the interior. They didn’t add a single free agent or draft pick to the interior of the defensive line. Carter needs to become a force and show dominance at times this preseason. Bringing juice to spell B.J. Hill and more dynamic options to get after the passer on early downs will be important. His focus and drive have been noted this offseason now will just be a matter of if he can make good on the work.

Is it safe to assume Ja’Marr Chase is 100 percent healthy following the hip injury last year? Wasn’t it a foregone conclusion that he would need surgery on the torn hip labrum at some point? (Ostensibly, he would’ve undergone such a procedure already.) — Michael Berger

A picture is worth a thousand words and I’m on a self-imposed word count for this mailbag. So, here’s your answer:

 

Quote

 

Appears he’s good (as is Bengals photographer Ryan Meyer).

Do we think the O-line will struggle to sync up at the beginning of this season like they did last year? — Kat Hansen

Summer concern for the effectiveness of the offensive line might be more consistent through the years in Cincinnati than construction on I-75. Much like the orange barrel brigade, the concern areas change from one year to the next.

Overall cohesion played a role last year. There were four new starters alongside Jonah Williams after the free agent frenzy and the first game snap played together came in the opener against Pittsburgh.

Now, the interior combination of Ted Karras, Alex Cappa and Cordell Volson own 15 starts together. Only four-time Pro Bowler Orlando Brown wasn’t in the room last year among the primary starting candidates at tackle. The concern revolves around the right tackle battle, but the options come with years of experience and pre-existing relationships up front.

The style of play the Bengals adjusted to on the fly last year was largely to fit the personality and play style of the offensive line. The staff learned it through trial and error during the first month. That shouldn’t exist this year, certainly not to anywhere near the same degree.

Plus, for now, everyone is healthy. La’el Collins and Alex Cappa were limited last year in camp with injuries and Volson was focused on winning the position battle during his first NFL camp. Everything up front feels much more stable this year. There are still new traffic patterns to deal with, but nothing like the construction project of last year. That should make for an 

Do you think the Bengals will do a best-five strategy for the O-line? Perhaps La’el Collins at left guard? Or is that Volson’s job at this point? — Brian Ramstetter

Simply put, that’s Volson’s job. The Bengals believe the arrow points up on Volson with a solid foundation of a promising rookie year buoying a standard projected improvement in year two.

Take out the first four games of his rookie season and Volson rated middle of the pack in pass-blocking efficiency among all guards, via PFF (39th of 82). Now, he’ll return with a year under his belt and playing next to Brown, a man placing extreme value on chemistry on and off the field with Volson.

For a team currently ranked fourth in the amount of money paid to the offensive line this year, you’d better believe they want to give every shot to a solid rookie starter with a work ethic they believe translates to improvement.

Collins becoming an answer at guard would only come along if injuries do. A move to the interior for him isn’t something they are particularly interested in right now. Collins started there early in his career, but last played guard in 2016.

The Bengals’ third-and-short and goal-line running seem the weakest part of the offense. Do you think they would benefit from having a fullback or lacking that, who would you move to the backfield to assume that role? — David Tumen

Lorenzo Neal was one of my favorite players at one point in time, but don’t expect any fullbacks returning to stripes in the near future.

The Bengals use the tight end or pull extra linemen if they think an extra big body is necessary. Drew Sample would be a candidate for this role. They won’t waste a roster spot with that style. And while failures in those situations are magnified, the Bengals were actually quite good in the situations you mentioned.

The Bengals were eighth in first down rate when rushing on third-and-short last year (78 percent conversion).

They also were 11th overall in goal-line rushing (quantified as a rush from the 3-yard line and in). They converted 11 touchdowns on 19 rushes.

A 30,000-foot question about the organization and Mike Brown: What role does the reality of Mike having more sand in the bottom of the hourglass than the top play in the aggressiveness of the team’s moves? Katie Blackburn knew her grandpa and uncle but Mike is the last real connection to the roots. — Joe Inderhees

I don’t think Mike Brown’s age plays one iota of a role in decision-making. To be clear, Mike won’t tolerate it. He believes in making the right decision for the organization no matter any other circumstances and that includes his age. Brown turns 88 in August but still carts over in good spirits for even the most boring of off-season practices.

In fact, he’s been on board with emboldening the younger family members to aggressively go away from the roots and focus on new projects and global ambitions. You can’t change who you are and nobody is worried about Brown’s age when making decisions on how to run the team.

I know we’ve talked a lot about concerns with the revamped safeties but do we have concerns on interior pass rush? Can you talk about our current and future views from that spot? — R. Gutter

Addressed this earlier in the conversation about Carter, but that’s my top concern defensively. Sure, the safeties will take time to acclimate to the level of Vonn Bell and Jessie Bates, but the secondary remains in good hands.

They just have to get more out of the pass rush. I’ll be curious to see how much of solving the problem lands in the versatility of Myles Murphy. Bumping him inside often in passing situations feels like an obvious way for him — and Joseph Ossai, who did this last year — to supplement the interior rush. But there’s no way around the fact that on first and second down they need more disruption from defensive tackles not named DJ Reader.

 

 

[AMPHAR]

Good insight on Irv Smith.   Hurst was an athletic upgrade to CJ and it seems they upped it again.   If he stays healthy Irv will certainly carve out some production to the levels produced by CJ/Hurst.

I wouldn't judge Irv or Hurst on yards per target.  I would on YAC.   This role has been find space underneath and get to the sticks.  

That ability is absolutely first thing they need from TE.   Then of course, big plays down the field would be excellent.  

Reviewing last season you can almost see it click with Burrow to use TE/RB underneath and quit big play hunting.  As soon as he flipped that which was about mid way in Baltimore the offense continued to rise along with a OL getting into gear. 

 

[HoosierCat]

6 hours ago, membengal said:

Today's Bengals mailbag from Dehner in the Athletic - gonna paste it here in honor of the spectacularly great opening question in the mailbag from someone who is clearly excellent at all things and devastatingly good looking- 

https://theathletic.com/4597755/2023/06/12/bengals-mailbag-otas-irv-smith/
 

 

I have it on good authority that Parker guy is a total jerk. Doesn’t pick up after his dog, doesn’t signal left turns at lights until the light turns green and always puts his dirty dishes in the sink and never the dishwasher. :P

[TJJackson]

 

[HoosierCat]

So the investor funding finally ran dry? Surprised it took that long. In any event, that sucks, hope Jay lands on his feet.

ETA ah, I see, the founders cashed out last years and left the NYT on the hook. Lol. Couldn’t have happened to a a better (worse) paper! 

Quote

The Athletic was founded in 2016 and raised some $140 million in venture funding before the New York Times bought it last year for $550 million in cash to buttress its subscription business. The Athletic now has around 3.3 million subscribers, more than double than when it was acquired. But it has been a drag on the company’s bottom line. Last year, it lost $6.8 million in February and March and another $12.6 million in the second quarter, according to public filings by the Times. It lost $7.8 million in the most recent quarter.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2023/06/12/athletic-layoffs-new-york-times/

[COB]

Journalism is an absolutely brutal business.  

it’s downright sad.  And even worse is the way journalism has been bought and sold, commodified, and ultimately downsized for not producing enough money for the capital interests that owned the publications, broadcast outlets, etc.  

 

Journalism safeguards the nation.  It is an institution, not just a business.  Other institutions that safeguard the nation like the 3 branches of government, education, the military, medicine, etc, all have institutional underpinnings that (mostly) protect them from capital.  At the very least they can’t be shut down or massively downsized, they aren’t measured by one metric (profitability) then treated accordingly.  
 

All those other institutions have built in societal structures that protect them.  Journalism was operated on the honor system for decades.  Professors or mentors taught it, instilled journalistic ethics and deified impartiality, and the industry just did its job.  Once the entities grew into attractive targets for acquisition by capital interests, forget it.  They imprinted a business model on newspapers, etc, that really had no business being the driving force behind decisions in journalism.
 

 Newspapers weren’t making orange juice or building widgets, they were performing an incredibly important role in a free society - keeping the people honestly informed as to what it’s government and society were doing.  Well, journalism is pretty well screwed now.  It has failed, destroyed by capital, and replaced by very effective misinformation campaigns and straight up liars on social media.  
 

Jay Morrison will find a new job.  Sports journalism is kind of the one area that has seen expansion and growth.  There are likely a lot of talented people in sports journalism that would be doing hard news if the opportunities existed.