Palmer in the no-huddle vs. ball control offense

[cincyhokie]

I was listening to Bengals Breakdown on Monday night with Brad and Lapham. Andrew Witworth was on and made a comment on how comfortable Palmer is in the no-huddle offense.

Not only does Palmer seem more comfortable in the no-huddle but he also seemed more comfortable in a more up-tempo offense. The Bengals, up until 2008 used to run a more up-tempo style of offense as opposed to now where Palmer slows the clock down and snaps the ball at the .000001 mark.

Does anyone have any way to break down games with ball control offense, since 2008 or 2009, with the no-huddle or higher tempo offense they used to run more consistently? Recent examples would be Chicago and San Diego games of last year.

Something changed with this offense about a year or 2 ago and Palmer's performance seems to correlate with it.

[Stripes]

I can't help with your primary request, but regarding one small point: I recall Palmer and the offense waiting until the very last millisecond to snap the ball even when they employed the no-huddle frequently.

[cincyhokie]

I can't help with your primary request, but regarding one small point: I recall Palmer and the offense waiting until the very last millisecond to snap the ball even when they employed the no-huddle frequently.

Yeah, you're probably right. Something's different, though and I think it's affecting Palmer's style of play. For example some relief pitchers can't start and some starters can't do relief.

I don't think it's the injuries or that his play has gone down "just because". He's played some very solid games last season. I don't think that it just comes and goes that easy. I am willing to bet the next time the Bengals go up-tempo he does very well.

[Wraith]

I have no statistics but I do have a story.

1981, Indiana Basketball Head Coach Bobby Knight was fed up with his team, they were constantly complaining that the game wasn't up tempo enough but Bob Knight knew how to coach basketball and they were going to learn that his way (a minimum of three passes before a shot attempt) was the right way to play the game, so he challenged his headstrong point guard (Isiah Thomas). The Hoosiers had squeaked into the NCAA Touney with a 21-9 record and he was going to use the experience of being blown out in the NCAAs to teach the kids a lesson. So he let Isiah run the offense his way, fast break basketball, the result.....Indiana blew everyone out of the tournament on the way to winning the NCAA Championship...true story and I believe it fits with this team. I think this team needs to run fast break football and coaches should let them do what they do best or risk letting the season get away from them.

[TJJackson]

So if I followed that right, I, uhm, think Bobby Knight = Hair.

Yeah, I probably didnt follow that right

[COB]

Bobby Knight blew Isiah Thomas, did I follow that right?

[cincyhokie]

And there's this...I think Hair touched on it in another thread. This makes sense. Speed up the game play.

/>http://www.bengals.com/news/article-1/Offense-looks-to-shed-flags-with-fast-play/8f7051c4-ceef-4822-9399-3515fc5abd1d

Bengals quarterback Carson Palmer can sense the move this week to simplicity as the offense looks to combat the slew of pre-snap penalties that nearly buried its effort against the Ravens last Sunday.

And he’s all for it after one illegal substitution penalty, one illegal formation penalty, four false starts, one delay of game that was prevented only by blowing a timeout as the play clock neared zero, and a couple of mistimed snaps.

“Probably not a bad idea,” Palmer said Wednesday. “Try to cut the mental hoops you have to jump through with all the changing personnel groups. Pulling four guys off the field and putting four new ones on, so it might be a good change for us.”

Offensive coordinator Bob Bratkowski is anxious to see the fruits of his offseason additions to the playbook. But he doesn’t want the mechanics to overburden the execution and so he said after Wednesday’s practice changes are on the way.

“We’ve condensed some of the things. Not using nearly many of the things maybe we’ve had issues with to try and make it go a little a smoother and little cleaner so there’s not much thinking at the line,” Bratkowski said. “Just approaching some of the things a little differently. It changes some of the rules the quarterback has. It changes how we have to operate at the line of scrimmage a little bit. It’s not out of the norm. Things that would have been handled one way are handled a different way now."

[COB]

Bob Bratkowski is anxious to see the fruits of his offseason additions to the playbook. But he doesn’t want the mechanics to overburden the execution

I like the image of Bratkowski as some type of mad scientist, coming up with brilliant plays so sophisticated that even veteran NFL players can't execute them.

The reality is more like one of those old movies with Jerry Lewis in a lab coat with smoke rolling out of a beaker while he yells for help.

[cincyhokie]

Bob Bratkowski is anxious to see the fruits of his offseason additions to the playbook. But he doesn’t want the mechanics to overburden the execution

I like the image of Bratkowski as some type of mad scientist, coming up with brilliant plays so sophisticated that even veteran NFL players can't execute them.

The reality is more like one of those old movies with Jerry Lewis in a lab coat with smoke rolling out of a beaker while he yells for help.

I think we've beat into the ground how inept some of the coaching staff can be. The point is that we should want them to be the best inept coaching staff there is. Reach for the stars and never give up hope. There's always room for improvements.

[cincyhokie]

I was listening to Bengals Breakdown on Monday night with Brad and Lapham. Andrew Witworth was on and made a comment on how comfortable Palmer is in the no-huddle offense.

Not only does Palmer seem more comfortable in the no-huddle but he also seemed more comfortable in a more up-tempo offense. The Bengals, up until 2008 used to run a more up-tempo style of offense as opposed to now where Palmer slows the clock down and snaps the ball at the .000001 mark.

Does anyone have any way to break down games with ball control offense, since 2008 or 2009, with the no-huddle or higher tempo offense they used to run more consistently? Recent examples would be Chicago and San Diego games of last year.

Something changed with this offense about a year or 2 ago and Palmer's performance seems to correlate with it.

Palmer played very well today vs. Cleveland with the up-tempo offense. Turnovers, blocked FG, no running game, and spotty defense did them in.

25/36 346 yards and 2 TDs. QB rating of 121.4

Hopefully, Brat can keep the playcalling such so the opposing defenses can't dig in. Palmer playing more up-tempo fits him better. Evidence again shown today.

[cincy9275]

when the bengals throw the ball twice as much as they run they lose. when the bengals are successful in the running game we win. we have a crazy record when ced runs more than 27 times 9-0 to be exact. then palmer is 20-5 when he has a 100 yard rusher. i understand games like the pats game. we have no choice but to throw, because we where down by so many points. but the stats speak for themselves. palmer has 2 300 passing yard games this season and we lost both. the bengals also have 2 game where we ran over 30 times and we won both. so it is no big secret or million dollar question. we run the damn ball and we win more than we lose.

it seems that when we try to force the passing game it fails. we make mistakes penalties and turn overs, wrong routes etc. it also puts the defense in a bad spot because we are not giving them time to rest. just look at the game before half time today. bengals ran 3 plays in like 15 seconds. so if you not getting first down you are killing your defense. 1st thing get a real fb, kelly and coats suck at it and cannot play the position. lets line up in a big set and just run the ball down peoples throat's like we did last year. then when we do wear down the other defense and their looking run, then attack them with the passing game.

the bad part is along as brat is calling the plays, we will continue to struggle. brat abandons the run way to early, today game is a example. down by 3 in the first half and we get pass happy. brat has no clue on how set defenses up or to take advantage of the other teams defensive weaknesses. no half time adjustment other than have carson throw it 50 times. no clue of what a game plan or being consistent on offense is. he has no clue on how to get him team in to a good flow. or when to mix the pass with the run to keep the defense guessing. to many times have i seen other defenses know exactly what we were running. to me this is just gone on for to long and a change would be welcome. but not likely to happen. just complete frustration.

[HoosierCat]

Sigh.

The Bengals did not lose today because they passed the ball more.

They lost because they turned the ball. Over. Three. Times.

Once while trying to pass, once while trying to get a handoff to Benson and once trying to kick a field goal.

[cincy9275]

Sigh.

The Bengals did not lose today because they passed the ball more.

They lost because they turned the ball. Over. Three. Times.

Once while trying to pass, once while trying to get a handoff to Benson and once trying to kick a field goal.

true, but good things happen for us when we commit to the run game that all.

[cincyhokie]

Sigh.

The Bengals did not lose today because they passed the ball more.

They lost because they turned the ball. Over. Three. Times.

Once while trying to pass, once while trying to get a handoff to Benson and once trying to kick a field goal.

true, but good things happen for us when we commit to the run game that all.

I think that might be true but the point I am trying to make is Palmer's performance in an up-tempo offense. You can still run the ball from the no huddle or hurry up.

The Bengals were down most of the game today and did not have much success running the ball until late in the game.

If the Bengals were to come out up-tempo and be aggressive through the air they may be even more successful running the ball. Especially in the second half. Let Palmer play up-tempo grab the lead, take shots down the field to soften up the defense...THEN proceed to pund Benson. I think they could be successful in doing that.

[COB]

Sigh.

The Bengals did not lose today because they passed the ball more.

They lost because they turned the ball. Over. Three. Times.

Once while trying to pass, once while trying to get a handoff to Benson and once trying to kick a field goal.

I disagree.

For example, Cleveland ran the ball 30 times, Cinn. ran it 17 times.

Cleveland passed for 184 yards. Cinn. passed for 371 yards.

Cleveland won the game.

Who's glad Brat and Mike listened to all the experts say you can't win in the NFL running the ball? Watching Cleveland run again and again on us reminded me of one thing - us last year, the year we went to the playoffs.

And the years we've tried to reproduce the '05 passing spectacular? '06,'07, '08, and now '10, all passing offense years and we haven't won s**t with it.

Since '05 we haven't won anything passing. The one year we ran the ball we swept and won the division.

[cincyhokie]

Sigh.

The Bengals did not lose today because they passed the ball more.

They lost because they turned the ball. Over. Three. Times.

Once while trying to pass, once while trying to get a handoff to Benson and once trying to kick a field goal.

I disagree.

For example, Cleveland ran the ball 30 times, Cinn. ran it 17 times.

Cleveland passed for 184 yards. Cinn. passed for 371 yards.

Cleveland won the game.

Who's glad Brat and Mike listened to all the experts say you can't win in the NFL running the ball? Watching Cleveland run again and again on us reminded me of one thing - us last year, the year we went to the playoffs.

And the years we've tried to reproduce the '05 passing spectacular? '06,'07, '08, and now '10, all passing offense years and we haven't won s**t with it.

Since '05 we haven't won anything passing. The one year we ran the ball we swept and won the division.

That works alot better when you're not down 10-0, 20-10, and 23-10.

There's alot more to the playcalling than "just run the ball" a certain amount of times (I know you know this, just speaking to the masses). I would guess without looking at the stats that the best running teams run the ball because they have the lead more often. Many of those teams get the lead often because they can score quickly by passing.

Also, the Browns are hard to run on this year. Their defense is improved.

The years we "didn't win passing" we lost because of our sh*tty defense. The reason we lost today was the turnovers. When the Bengals lose the turnover differential they're something like 6-51 under Marvin Lewis.

[volcom69]

Sigh.

The Bengals did not lose today because they passed the ball more.

They lost because they turned the ball. Over. Three. Times.

Once while trying to pass, once while trying to get a handoff to Benson and once trying to kick a field goal.

I disagree.

For example, Cleveland ran the ball 30 times, Cinn. ran it 17 times.

Cleveland passed for 184 yards. Cinn. passed for 371 yards.

Cleveland won the game.

Who's glad Brat and Mike listened to all the experts say you can't win in the NFL running the ball? Watching Cleveland run again and again on us reminded me of one thing - us last year, the year we went to the playoffs.

And the years we've tried to reproduce the '05 passing spectacular? '06,'07, '08, and now '10, all passing offense years and we haven't won s**t with it.

Since '05 we haven't won anything passing. The one year we ran the ball we swept and won the division.

I agree with this statement! Only thing is right now run blocking really sucks. This team is built to run the ball, and play good defense thats how they won the division last year. They needed some playmakers so that when Palmer had to throw he could. For some reason it seems like they are trying to make the o-linemen pass blocks now instead of run blockers.

Another thing is right now this defense is overrated, and not that great. They are still not getting great pressure, Senenca looked like a probowl QB, and when asked to stop the run when you know they are going to run...they cant.

So i think right now they have no idenity, and they are slowly getting away from what won them a bunch of games last year. They added pieces to get them over the top, but right now i dont think they know what way they are going.

[HoosierCat]

The one year we ran the ball we swept and won the division.

What everyone seems to forget is that running the ball last year would have gotten us a record of, oh, about 4-12 or maybe 6-10 without all the last-minute heroics of Palmer and the passing game.

[cincyhokie]

Ahem. The point of the thread was to look at reasons for Palmer's inconsistencies. Primarily because people (including me) were not ok with the way they were winning. Running, ball control, etc. There's alot of worry that when needed Palmer can't be the passer we all of the sudden want him to be.

Here's the "rub". Can't have it all. Palmer's a good QB, not a great one. He apparently needs to be in a throwing, high tempo, fast moving offense. He doesn't look like he can sustain any consistency in an offense commited to controling the clock and depending on short to intermediate timing routes.

[HairOnFire]

Hopefully, Brat can keep the playcalling such so the opposing defenses can't dig in. Palmer playing more up-tempo fits him better. Evidence again shown today.

Well, f**k Carson Palmer then because I've seen enough of this years version of the Bengals offense. They suck on 3rd down nearly as much as they suck in the Redzone, and their commitment to the passing game has robbed the Bengals of their toughness. Rather, they've become again exactly what they used to be...an error-prone bunch of pu**ies who will make the first and last mistake in every football game they play.

25/36 346 yards and 2 TDs. QB rating of 121.4

I'm not a Palmer basher. Never have been and probably never will be. But he ripped it up against an inferior Cleveland team that never trailed from start to finish. So how much should any of us care about what type of offense best suits Carson Palmer?

[HairOnFire]

Since '05 we haven't won anything passing. The one year we ran the ball we swept and won the division.

I agree with this statement! Only thing is right now run blocking really sucks. This team is built to run the ball, and play good defense thats how they won the division last year.

Actually, LAST years team was built to run the football, but THIS years team isn't. THIS years team is built for passing the ball. Nutshelled, they've gone from runnning behind what was essentially a stripped down 3-TE offense where none of the TE's were a threat to catch the ball to a gimmicky 3-WR offense that may actually be built around the receiving talents of a TE. And because of this change, and others just as bad, this team can no longer run the ball like it once did. And it can't win by passing the ball yet....and that probably won't change until it's too late to matter. In short, this is what BSOPB football looks like.

On the plus side, Marvin Lewis won't have to make another round of insincere aapologies for winning ugly this week.

[volcom69]

Since '05 we haven't won anything passing. The one year we ran the ball we swept and won the division.

I agree with this statement! Only thing is right now run blocking really sucks. This team is built to run the ball, and play good defense thats how they won the division last year.

Actually, LAST years team was built to run the football, but THIS years team isn't. THIS years team is built for passing the ball. Nutshelled, they've gone from runnning behind what was essentially a stripped down 3-TE offense where none of the TE's were a threat to catch the ball to a gimmicky 3-WR offense that may actually be built around the receiving talents of a TE. And because of this change, and others just as bad, this team can no longer run the ball like it once did. And it can't win by passing the ball yet....and that probably won't change until it's too late to matter. In short, this is what BSOPB football looks like.

On the plus side, Marvin Lewis won't have to make another round of insincere aapologies for winning ugly this week.

Well, then i dont get why change what got you where you wanted to go last year. Its like now they are starting over again. Brought back the same team as last year, and they go backwards.....coaching on this team sucks.

[cincyhokie]

Well, then i dont get why change what got you where you wanted to go last year. Its like now they are starting over again. Brought back the same team as last year, and they go backwards.....coaching on this team sucks.

The coaching does suck. If it doesn't then it has at least reached it's potential in Cincinnati.

Marvin sees this too. He wants more control to hire and fire his coaching staff, more than likely. As it stands right now, this will probably be Marvin's last season here. He sees the problems but doesn't have the power to make the changes.

[volcom69]

Well, then i dont get why change what got you where you wanted to go last year. Its like now they are starting over again. Brought back the same team as last year, and they go backwards.....coaching on this team sucks.

The coaching does suck. If it doesn't then it has at least reached it's potential in Cincinnati.

Marvin sees this too. He wants more control to hire and fire his coaching staff, more than likely. As it stands right now, this will probably be Marvin's last season here. He sees the problems but doesn't have the power to make the changes.

Yep i dont see Marvin coming back either, and im not so sure how successful the coach will be without any control. It just bugs me that last year they were so successful with running the ball, all they need was alittle passing and they would have been pretty good down the stretch. Now its like they are changing the way this team plays from week to week. Once again ill say the team is the same as last year, a couple new guys here or there to help out, and the team so far is no better. Wheres the coaching at? Shouldnt they be better from one year to the next? Im starting to feel like its 2006 all over again

[membengal]

I am sure as s**t not seeing any consistent running lanes, nothing like they had last year, and remain unconvinced that running the ball 35 times does anything other than ensure a series of 20-10 losses. That style walked too fine a line last year, and was bailed out by the much maligned Palmer in at least four games with miracle drives late. And it left them no margin for error when the defenses got better. Like against the Jets in the playoffs.

They simply had to improve the passing game. In so doing, that doesn't mean they need to lose any identity. Not if Brat can call a game or put in some plays to take advantage of the myriad of ways the Bengals can move the ball.