Palmer in the no-huddle vs. ball control offense

[cincyhokie]

I think alot of us have forgotten how much the Bengals struggled after that second win against Baltimore. Save the win in Pittsburgh, the team looked flat on offense the second half of the season and really did not run the ball well at all...except for teams such as Oakland, Cleveland, and Kansas City.

The current version of of the Bengals probably can't beat any of those teams....except for Baltimore.

Sooooooo.......what were stuck with is an offense that overachieved admirably with the overachieving offensive line.

No, what we're stuck with is a new offense desperately attempting to become something it's not built to be. All of the previously mentioned overachieving stuff was tossed in the trash months ago.

Sorry, there it is.

Don't apologize. I know Smashball is self limiting in some ways. But by the same token I'm not going to apologize for a sweep of the division and a playoff berth...which was achieved even though the Bengals had one of the lowest ranked passing attacks in the NFL. Because that's the standard we're trying to match or better, right?

Point blank, if you want to justify the switch to pass first then a good place to start might be by demonstrating how a more wide open attack results in more wins. Or failing that, how about demonstrating how the more wide open scheme produces more points or better success on 3rd down. Yet we've seen none of that to date. Just improved passing stats and flashes of something better in the future. Meanwhile, lowly Cleveland physically whips this team from start to finish.

Please tell me you don't think that last year's built team could beat the Colts, Patriots, or Jets? Because these are the teams that will be in the playoffs.

How likely it is that the Ravens and Steelers both finish at or below 9-7.

Then with this year's schedule loaded with teams that pass and score quickly, how could this team possibly hang with the likes of the Colts, Saints, Falcons, Chargers, and Jets? The Bengals of last year or this year would not finish at 10-6. Even if they did, how likely is it that they would make the playoffs or get past the first round?

The Bengals CAN move the ball on the ground and in the air.

[HairOnFire]

I don't think that last year's play is going to cut it this year. I also don't think that this year's play will cut it either, passing or running. But this offense has MORE than enough talent to figure out something with the talent of this defense to be a 10-6 team.

Well, either way they better get it in gear immediately because they just lost to a team they should have beaten.

[cincyhokie]

I don't think that last year's play is going to cut it this year. I also don't think that this year's play will cut it either, passing or running. But this offense has MORE than enough talent to figure out something with the talent of this defense to be a 10-6 team.

Well, either way they better get it in gear immediately because they just lost to a team they should have beaten.

Agreed.

[HairOnFire]

Please tell me you don't think that last year's built team could beat the Colts, Patriots, or Jets? Because these are the teams that will be in the playoffs.

The playoffs are 3 months away and they weren't playing against Peyton Manning. They were playing against, and losing to, the likes of Cleveland and Seneca Wallace. Worse, the were never in the lead, and never in control despite a mostly oustanding performance by Carson Palmer.

Maybe I'm just high, but it seems to me if your plan works yet you still lose to an inferior opponent maybe your plan isn't really working at all.

[ArmyBengal]

I'm not saying that either Iupati or Pouncey were there when we picked in the draft. I'm saying I viewed either of them as a more important part of what the Bengals needed heading into this season and should they have looked at, could have put greater emphasis on the position. Hell, Bryan Bulaga was still there when they picked and many had him going in the top 10. Go one further and Vladimir Ducasse was available when they picked in the 2nd.

The only point I'm making is the Bengals put more stock on a part time player that (while I like him) won't make as big an impact that another player for the interior of our o-line would have. I'm sure some may disagree, but that's where I was prior to the draft and where I remain today.

[cincyhokie]

Please tell me you don't think that last year's built team could beat the Colts, Patriots, or Jets? Because these are the teams that will be in the playoffs.

The playoffs are 3 months away and they weren't playing against Peyton Manning. They were playing against, and losing to, the likes of Cleveland and Seneca Wallace. Worse, the were never in the lead, and never in control despite a mostly oustanding performance by Carson Palmer.

Maybe I'm just high, but it seems to me if your plan works yet you still lose to an inferior opponent maybe your plan isn't really working at all.

Yeah, but I also think that....wait for this...the Browns defense has improved. I wonder if the Bengals knew that before they gameplanned.

[cincyhokie]

I'm not saying that either Iupati or Pouncey were there when we picked in the draft. I'm saying I viewed either of them as a more important part of what the Bengals needed heading into this season and should they have looked at, could have put greater emphasis on the position. Hell, Bryan Bulaga was still there when they picked and many had him going in the top 10. Go one further and Vladimir Ducasse was available when they picked in the 2nd.

The only point I'm making is the Bengals put more stock on a part time player that (while I like him) won't make as big an impact that another player for the interior of our o-line would have. I'm sure some may disagree, but that's where I was prior to the draft and where I remain today.

I'm sorry man but if you take Bulaga over Gresham, you're nuts. Gresham is a freaking stud and would not suprise me if he's an all-pro very soon.

In the second, they could have targeted OL, but I don't like Vladamir "Stacy Andrews" Duccasse. They could have also potentially gone for OL in the 3rd.

[Sea Ray]

Frankly, both claims are crap since the Bengals routinely beat Cleveland in the recent past by running the ball, and if they can't win the division this year it's likely due to a change in strategy that you've supported at every turn despite your admission that the O-line isn't talented enough to be a pass first group.

Routinely? You have a strange definition of routinely. In my world routinely does not include a three pt victory in OT which is exactly how it went last year in Cleveland.

Let's compare the two because the facts don't support your claim that the Bengals' philosophy has changed a great deal. In both years the game was played in week 4. The final score was 23-20. Last year Palmer threw the ball 44 times while Cedric ran it 18 times. This yr Carson threw it 36 times while Cedric ran it 15 times. Benson averaged about 4 yds per carry in both games.

Now I would argue that there's not much difference in the two games. In fact the games are remarkably similar. But I do see that we lost the turnover battle this year 2-1 whereas it was 2-2 last year and we commited 8 penalties for 79 yds this yr as opposed to only 46 yds on 6 penalties last year.

There are your facts. So much for your hollow accusations thrown my way. The facts show that the Bengals were more pass happy last year by an small margin. I stand by my comment that the problem lies with execution (penalties, turnovers) not falling in love with the pass

[Sea Ray]

Why not? Because right now the Bengals are a pass happy team that can't produce on 3rd down, can't produce in the RedZone, and with the exception of field goals can barely score at all. In fact, they're suddenly vulnerable to opposing teams who can grind them down using many of the same Smashball trappings now discarded by the Error-Bengal passing attack.

Another "hollow" claim by HoF. The facts contradict your statement as I've shown previously

[HairOnFire]

Routinely? You have a strange definition of routinely. In my world routinely does not include a three pt victory in OT which is exactly how it went last year in Cleveland.

So you're going to dispute what qualifies as routine by limiting your comparison to one game? Any chance you can show off further by showing the Bengal's won/loss record against Cleveland under Lewis? Or how about in the last two years? Last 5? Because all you've proven so far is your ability to count to one while still ignoring the end result.

The facts show that the Bengals were more pass happy last year by an small margin.

Enjoy your fictional free cigar from Hoosier. Nobody loves a good crap stat more than him so the two of you should get along famously.

[HairOnFire]

There are your facts. So much for your hollow accusations thrown my way. The facts show that the Bengals were more pass happy last year by an small margin. I stand by my comment that the problem lies with execution (penalties, turnovers) not falling in love with the pass

Dear sir,

It is with a great deal of regret that I must cancel my subscription to your newsletter. The quality of your paper is terrible, your inks run and fade, and the analysis contained within is so stupid that I fear it has damaged my eyes. Please close my account immediately.

[HoosierCat]

You can't counter my post with the post my post was countering in the first place! This violates the law of the internet.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psTUiQzNoxw

[Sea Ray]

HoF:

Since you've decided not to add anything to your argument, care to say what you want to see the Bengals do? Do you want to see more of Dan Coats and less of Jermaine Gresham? I clearly compared two very similar games. If you don't like the game I chose, feel free to break down another and we'll discuss.

You offered nothing to rebut, so what is your point specifically?

[HairOnFire]

I clearly compared two very similar games. If you don't like the game I chose, feel free to break down another and we'll discuss.

If you ask me any debate based on crap stats is about the same as any other so all I'll add is this. After four games the Bengals have attempted 21 more pass attempts than attempted in last seasons first four games, and the difference might have been even greater had it not included last seasons 44 pass attempts against Cleveland in the game you pointed to. So against Cleveland specifically the Bengals just continued their downward spiraling trend of passing more and enjoying it less. But it ain't just Cleveland, right?

You offered nothing to rebut, so what is your point specifically?

That this team has cast off an identity that resulted in a playoff berth just last season in favor of a more familiar identity that hasn't actually gotten them s**t for longer than either of us would care to think of. And if it's crap stats you need then consider this one. Last season the Bengals attempted 35 or more passes in a game only four times out of the 16 games played. So far this season they've topped that total in every single game.

[Sea Ray]

I clearly compared two very similar games. If you don't like the game I chose, feel free to break down another and we'll discuss.

If you ask me any debate based on crap stats is about the same as any other so all I'll add is this. After four games the Bengals have attempted 21 more pass attempts than attempted in last seasons first four games, and the difference might have been even greater had it not included last seasons 44 pass attempts against Cleveland in the game you pointed to. So against Cleveland specifically the Bengals just continued their downward spiraling trend of passing more and enjoying it less. But it ain't just Cleveland, right?

You offered nothing to rebut, so what is your point specifically?

That this team has cast off an identity that resulted in a playoff berth just last season in favor of a more familiar identity that hasn't actually gotten them s**t for longer than either of us would care to think of. And if it's crap stats you need then consider this one. Last season the Bengals attempted 35 or more passes in a game only four times out of the 16 games played. So far this season they've topped that total in every single game.

Why give me crap stats if you have better ones to offer?

The specificity I requested from you was not granted.

I still don't know wat you want. I take it you want to trade the 78 yard bomb to TO for ten more handoffs to Benson. Or do you want more of Andre Smith reporting "eligible"? Or do you want more of Coats and Kelly and less of Gresham and Shipley?

I think it's still up for debate whether this O-line is good enough to get this team to the playoffs two years in a row regardless of what offense they run. Whatever they run, they've got to cut down on their mistakes.

[membengal]

It's pretty simple from where I sit:

1. The Bengals' "success on offense" last year was not that. Success. They kept games close and were bailed out by Palmer late. What was a 10-6 record should easily have been 6-10.

2. The offense left bad teams in games with them that should not have been. Oakland. Detroit. Denver. KC. Losses or near losses ensued.

3. A team approach built on luck is not sustainable.

4. The defense's margin for error was too slim.

5. When they played the good teams late with that offense, beatings ensued. Minny. Jets. SD. Only SD was really close, and that thanks to Carson having a game.

6. I think all of the above went into the coaching staff's thinking that the pass offense had to be a factor again.

In short, the coaches were not wrong in identifying the issue if the Bengals were going to have a chance to compete against vastly improved Steelers and Ravens teams. The question is whether the coaches can actually coach what they've got in a manner that will yield wins. There I am not certain, but they were not wrong in addressing a weakness. What I am dead certain of is 40 line plunges from Benson/Scott for 100 yards rushing is going to result in a s**tload of losses as this team gets overwhelmed by teams that can move the ball offensively. Like what happened late last year. This line simply does not block well enough to win with the mantra of "run the ball more". Not even close.

Bottom line is, this line probably doesn't block well enough to win no matter the style, making most of what is typed on this topic more meaningless than usual.

[ArmyBengal]

I don't honestly think there is ANYTHING the Bengals can do this season to address what the concern is.

I also don't think they were wrong in addressing a weakness, I take issue with when they addressed it. I was all about getting a TE, but wasn't hell bent on that TE being Gresham in the first. Again, it's not about a dislike for Gresham.

I agree that the Bengals can't win with the mantra of "run the ball more" due to the changes that were made on the o-line and the personnel brought in. When you take another guy off the line and take another blocker out of the mix, it's bound to create problems when the remainder of your line has blocking issues.

I'm not asking them to go back to mostly jumbo packages, because I agree they needed to improve the WR corps and the offense overall. They did that, but have seemed to force the issue this season. I'm not talking about balance between running and passing, I'm more talking about "who" they are forcing feeding the ball. They have the weapons and don't spread it around much.

Where's the playfake ?? Where's the play action pass ?? Can anyone account for how many steps Carson is taking when he drops back ?? I ask because if it's a question of the pocket collapsing, maybe some more quick routes would also help. Again, just spitballing here. I simply want to see this offense figure it out.

[Stripes]

3. A team approach built on luck is not sustainable.

I agree with 95% of your post, mem, and mostly this. The Bengals ability to run the ball last season was enough to end a lot of games in ties or even losses. Palmer had to save the day repeatedly.

Let's also not forget that the two most productive games from the offense this season have also been the two losses. One of the biggest reasons for the team's regression right now has absolutely nothing to do with offense. Check the regressed D.

[COB]

I co-sign COB's posts and will be subscribing to his newsletter.

You're just in time for my big issue on domestic issues. The lead story is, "An Almost Daily Serving of Hamburger Helper: Reasonable Nutrition, or The Basis for a Justifiable Homocide Defense?"

[HairOnFire]

It's pretty simple from where I sit:

Would that be upon Hoosier's lap?

The Bengals' "success on offense" last year was not that. Success. They kept games close and were bailed out by Palmer late. What was a 10-6 record should easily have been 6-10.

The Bengals success last season was largely limited to running the football, right? In fact, the passing game was mostly inept. So changes were made and upgrades are everywhere. But identifying the teams biggest problem, the need for better passing, doesn't justify taking the teams greatest weakness and converting it into it's primary focus. And finally, there's no reason to look at last years 10-6 record as if it didn't happen and coudn't be repeated if tried, which so many of you are claiming.

3. A team approach built on luck is not sustainable.

So it's just dumb luck when the 2-minute offense actually works as intended? Well then, what should we call it if the Bengals actually attempt what so many of you advocate, basically running the 2-minute offense for the entire game?

I'd call it surrender.

4. The defense's margin for error was too slim.

It's smaller now.

5. When they played the good teams late with that offense, beatings ensued. Minny. Jets. SD. Only SD was really close, and that thanks to Carson having a game.

Your rant would make more sense if you could show how passing the ball more actually resulted in wins instead of close losses that are easier for you to swallow simply because they played a different style of football. In fact, of the teams you just mentioned how many do you imagine the Benagsls could beat right now using the same record breaking passing attack that just lost to Cleveland? None of them, right?

6. I think all of the above went into the coaching staff's thinking that the pass offense had to be a factor again.

Of course it did. Last seasons passing attack was practically inept and had to be improved. But why take something that was inept and after making a few changes make it your new identity?

In short, the coaches were not wrong in identifying the issue if the Bengals were going to have a chance to compete against vastly improved Steelers and Ravens teams.

The Steelers are tied for 1st place thanks in large measure to a power running game and strong defense. All this despite trading away their most explosive WR during the offseason and being forced to use 2nd, 3rd, and 4th string QB's.

Just saying.

What I am dead certain of is 40 line plunges from Benson/Scott for 100 yards rushing is going to result in a s**tload of losses as this team gets overwhelmed by teams that can move the ball offensively.

And I'm dead certain that a strategy of 18 rushing attempts a game will result in this team losing to nearly every team they face, including previously winless teams like Cleveland. Because what you're advocating is a perfect recipe for 6-10, not 10-6.

Bottom line is, this line probably doesn't block well enough to win no matter the style, making most of what is typed on this topic more meaningless than usual.

For that to be true the reader would have to ignore facts. For example, how the play of this teams O-line was critical in producing a 10-6 record last season with almost no help whatsoever from the passing game. So what you're saying, without actually saying it, is this line can't block well enough to win this season using the new offensive gameplans they've since adopted. And on that point we agree.

[HairOnFire]

One of the biggest reasons for the team's regression right now has absolutely nothing to do with offense. Check the regressed D.

Running the football and playing good defense go hand in hand. Always have, always will. Just as not running the football and paying the price on defense has always gone hand in hand.

[cincyhokie]

Here's a crazy thought:

Any chance that the opposing teams are scheming for the Bengals to run a certain style of offense? And maybe they've been doing that since the second half of the season?

I don't think that just by establishing the "same type" of offense that they're going to have the same success as the beginning of last season. They're not that good that they can impose their will on other teams no matter who it is or when they want to.

What if their gameplanning HAS been to run the ball and teams are taking that away? The Bengals are then left to be dared to pass the ball in certain situations.

They're 2-2.

Against NE: Defense was bad

Against Baltimore: Defense was great, they tried to run and couldn't after the first half.

Against Carolina: Defense was good

Against Cleveland: Defense was spotty and they tried to run but couldn't

I'd say that in both losses the defense had more to do with losing than the offensive performance. And of course the 2 games that they lose the turnover margin they lose those games as well.

[cincyhokie]

So it's just dumb luck when the 2-minute offense actually works as intended? Well then, what should we call it if the Bengals actually attempt what so many of you advocate, basically running the 2-minute offense for the entire game?

No. What I would like to see is the offense get the lead first. More than likely this would be done by passing the ball. Once with the lead they can open up the running game as well as give the defense a chance to breathe.

No team can run the no-huddle all game. Well, except for the Colts.

[Spor_tees]

So it's just dumb luck when the 2-minute offense actually works as intended? Well then, what should we call it if the Bengals actually attempt what so many of you advocate, basically running the 2-minute offense for the entire game?

No. What I would like to see is the offense get the lead first. More than likely this would be done by passing the ball. Once with the lead they can open up the running game as well as give the defense a chance to breathe.

No team can run the no-huddle all game. Well, except for the Colts.

It takes a well coached, well prepared team to come out of the locker room ready to play and jump out to a lead. The Bengals aren't able to do this very often. You make your own assumptions.

[HairOnFire]

I don't honestly think there is ANYTHING the Bengals can do this season to address what the concern is.

I fear you're right. If the Cleveland game is proof of anything, and I pray it isn't, the Bengals seem to be moving even further towards the Error-Bengal passing attack. Thus, any future salvation, if it's to come at all, probably has to come by way of the pass. And that means the passing game has to stop s**tting on itself immediately, because one more loss to a team they should beat will just about end any remaining talk about the playoffs. And if there's no playoffs you can flush all of that talk about how you need a passing game to beat teams like San Diego and Indy.

I agree that the Bengals can't win with the mantra of "run the ball more" due to the changes that were made on the o-line and the personnel brought in. When you take another guy off the line and take another blocker out of the mix, it's bound to create problems when the remainder of your line has blocking issues.

"This is the life we've chosen and the only thing we know for certain is that none of us will see heaven."

They did that, but have seemed to force the issue this season. I'm not talking about balance between running and passing, I'm more talking about "who" they are forcing feeding the ball. They have the weapons and don't spread it around much.

Forcing the ball is just another way of saying that you're attacking in the way you want to attack rather than in the way you should attack.

Again, just spitballing here. I simply want to see this offense figure it out.

Absolutely. In fact, they could throw the ball 70 times a game and not hear a single complaint from me if doing so resulted in more points and more wins. But that's very clearly not happening when the passing game "explodes" yet still manages to let Cleveland control the game from start to finish.

Bottom Line: Fix it or f**k it.