Week 5: Bengals @ Cardinals Game Thread

[ArmyBengal]

Here's something to think about and honestly it blows my mind:

Through the first 4 games this season, Joshua freakin' Dobbs has thrown for more yards, has a much better completion rate, throws for almost 2 yards further per attempt, has twice the amount of TD's and not a single interception in comparison to what Burrow has produced to this point.  Certainly no one is about to say that Dobbs is a better QB than Burrow, but something is the cause for that and it's not because we have played the toughest part of the schedule.

[AMPHAR]

Fans want a singular source of blame so they easily craft their world view.     Its not a matter of Zac making the call or even Burrow saying something one way or the other.

I'm pretty confident that this has always been based on medical FACTS or Expert Medical Opinions.   Then there is a group of decision makers working from the same set of data to make a decision.    Any disagreement Mike Brown or a Brown family member will make the call.   Their track record has always been to favor the long term benefit to the player. 

Rest may not get them anything because there may not be anything to actually heal.   It could be a strength issue, mental issue combination of whatever.

What I'm confident in saying is Joe Burrow can't go to Zac and say medical advice be damned I'm playing OR Zac can't go against medical advice and say Joe's playing.  It is unlikely anyone is working off blind faith and sticking Burrow out there not knowing what the risk/benefit is. 

If a medical opinion was saying Joe Burrow needs to rest.   Then he would be resting regardless of what Zac or Burrow wanted.    I would be shocked if Mike Brown or anyone in that family went the opposite way.    

Based on my trust in Mike Brown not going the way of evil owner there's probably no medical risk at all.  Its a question of who can perform better and give them the best chance to win.   They've selected Burrow over Browning.     Burrow hasn't played well in 2 of losses.   He played well enough to win vs. Ravens.

 

 

 

[volcom69]

Yea I agree with that. If they were told to rest him because it would heal they would be doing that already. I also agree it may be all about strengthening the calf muscle back up how he goes about doing that I have no clue.

Thats why I still think some of the things that are wrong is mental. So maybe he is worried about getting it hurt again, so he does not push off the foot, or run around like he used to. 

[AMPHAR]

IMO, rest solution from fans is more about their sensibilities in handling their disappointment of a season not working out they hoped.      If there was something to be gained from resting then they would be doing it.    I refuse to believe there is medical advice suggesting rest is the best solution and the Brown family is putting Burrow at risk and then Burrow's camp not leaking that info. 

Quite frankly, I believe if there was not medical advice of resting and Burrow's camp wanted to rest anyway then he would be resting.     Conspiracy theories are great for message board conjecture, but the Brown family being evil owners treating their players as raw meat putting them through a grinder is something I've never heard of from them.

There is a recent example of AJ Green wanting to play and Mike Brown saying no and then sending him home for Christmas.     I doubt there is someone in that building with medical facts/opinion saying "rest" and the entire building is going against it. 

 

 

 

 

[ArmyBengal]

I'm not painting the ownership as anything.  Haven't mentioned them in this equation a single time.
There is no conspiracy theory being pushed.  Something is wrong and it doesn't need to be a single source either.
I am just trying to figure out what it is, because there are literally no other reasons why this team and Burrow are underperforming so badly.
 

[AMPHAR]

Joe Burrow has simply sucked.   The suggestion of "rest" is something to explain the unknown reason as to why.   Then of course you need a "fall guy" to explain why "rest" isn't being done.

"Rest" to me means "Injured".    That is what happens after an injury.   They throw in a boot, cast, brace, walk around on crutches or a scooter.   Isolate it and heal it.   Then there is a battery of exercises once healed enough used to make it functional.    My guess Burrow passed all that stuff a while ago, but that doesn't mean you are 100% NFL level.

"Rest" could be counter productive.   Sure it would gives us a reason to explain a miserable season so far and allow us to wash away the reasons of losing to a singular failure point.    But Burrow's comments after the Rams game and the fact they've said he's starting vs. Arizona and the history of this organization lean me towards believing there is nothing to be gained by "resting".  

There are similar thinking but different theories to explain Joe Burrow sucking.   If there was some magical play call or offensive scheme to overcome a league worse QB play, then team's would not be spending $250m+ on QBs.   QBs would be getting the RB treatment which most NFL front offices have made it clear RBs are a dime a dozen. 

The hard part is simply Joe Burrow needs to play better and yes he was dealt a bad hand again in training camp.   An equally harder part to accept is even if Joe Burrow was average the best they probably would be is 2-2.    As they weren't beating the Ravens or Titans with those defensive performances.   An average Burrow may have beaten the Browns given the number of defensive stops.   A below average Burrow did beat the Rams thanks to the defense.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[volcom69]

My guess and like I said just my guess right now is just mental in his head. I’m sure every time he goes back to pass he is just worried about re injuring the calf. Like I said even with time his accuracy has been so bad his mechanics throwing are just off. I’m sure the calf bothers him enough that it’s in his head all the time when playing. It’s probably a soft tissue issue that needs to strengthen over time. 
 

I do blame the coaching though big time, they know Joe is not right now but still asking him to throw it 40 times is just stupid. You have Mixon running hard having a great season, but refuse to run the ball even 30 times a game. Zac has been terrible thus far calling plays and I wish someone would take it over.

Hopefully somehow someway Joe starts looking like his old self again.

Hopefully the defense learns to tackle again, just like Joe this defense is lost as well half the the time. I know the offense is not helping, but they need to play better as well

[HoosierCat]

Kendric Pryor back. No surprise, WR getting thin.

[AMPHAR]

Run/Pass ratio is predicated on the amount of RPOs they insert into the game plan and call through out the game.   That puts the end result of that ratio partly on Burrow's post snap decisions.    Burrow enjoys RPOs based on some previous post game comments.   Draft a franchise QB.  Pay a franchise QB.   Expect a franchise QB to deliver results.  He gets a tremendous amount of credit showing up at Jeff Ruby's with a Free Agent.  Great amount of credit in a sub-par performance that results in a win.   No blame.    He hasn't played well in 3 of the 4 games.  The 2nd game vs. Ravens is decent.

Zac is accountable for never having an elite offense.  Zac is accountable for the way this team enters the season.  IMO.

Suggesting the Bengals treat Burrow like Hue did Dalton in 2014, might work.  But that offense was just mid pack and the defense was the catalyst for a playoff run.

Zac Taylor pundits once criticized him for running against SF in OT even though Burrow was getting pounded.   How dare he take the ball out his hands!  Now there a vocal loud radio show filled with opinions blaming Zac for Burrow being on the field and not taking the ball out of his hands.   Just shows the low level logic, IMO.

Burrow would not be on the field if there was greater risk injury.   Running the ball ala 2014 to save an under performing QB, might work.   But how many people are willing to point out the under performing QB?  Do the Bengals have the defense to get the job done?   I still say revert to 2014 running the ball is only getting them 2-2 at best.  Defense has only put a winning performance on the board twice this year.

 

Jane's and Joe's matter more that X's and O's.   Always.   Teams would pay another position group if they could scheme their way past poor QB play.

 

 

 

[ArmyBengal]

Burrow has already acknowledged that going back on the field could risk further injury regarding his calf, so not sure where that came from in thinking not.

Further, if there was nothing wrong with the calf, you wouldn’t have had the coaches and players commenting about how he toughed it out and played through it when his status was unknown until right before the start of the Rams game.

Even after the Titans game Zac eluded to a continued issue with the calf in saying that he’s playing through it and there are still limitations.

I just feel those noted issues are impacting his play. If those same issues are fucking with him mentally, that’s something else. Again, if you can identify the concern, take action. What they are doing now clearly is not working.

[volcom69]

2 hours ago, ArmyBengal said:

Burrow has already acknowledged that going back on the field could risk further injury regarding his calf, so not sure where that came from in thinking not.

Further, if there was nothing wrong with the calf, you wouldn’t have had the coaches and players commenting about how he toughed it out and played through it when his status was unknown until right before the start of the Rams game.

Even after the Titans game Zac eluded to a continued issue with the calf in saying that he’s playing through it and there are still limitations.

I just feel those noted issues are impacting his play. If those same issues are fucking with him mentally, that’s something else. Again, if you can identify the concern, take action. What they are doing now clearly is not working.

I have no doubt the calf is messing with him, and still think it’s messing with his mind as well. With that said if he is worse then what they are saying then this is very irresponsible of Burrow and the coaches for leaving him out there, not to mention not fair to his teammates. Once again I don’t know what to think, all I know is this is very frustrating knowing the talent on this team and how shitty they look.

[AMPHAR]

Quote

There is risk to go out there and potentially re-injure it,” Joe Burrow told reporters, “But there’s also a risk to go out there and be 0-3. So I wanted to be out there for my guys, and I was confident I was going to be able to do what I needed to do to get the win.”

That's not acknowledging anything about further injury.   That actually states he'd have to suffer another injury.   He's healed.  He's played like crap as he tries to make up for missed practice time and regaining what ever physical abilities he lost while healing in training camp.

At best they are 2-2 but I think you'd still have to work some magic thinking to sell that based on the defenses performance in two of those games.

 

 

 

 

 

[ArmyBengal]

People can interpret it however they like.
If it was no longer a concern, the coaches would not keep addressing it.

Agree to disagree.  Nothing else on that right now.

[AMPHAR]

 Being Concerned and forcing an injured player to play are world's apart.  The concern is driven by his performance in Nashville.   That does not equate to Burrow being injured and needing rest.    I have not been briefed on Burrow's status so my guess is worth a crap.   I have seen the rehab process a bunch of times unfortunately.

Stage 1 - Rest, isolate, immobilize - That 's when you see Boots, Crutches, Scooters, Braces

Stage 2 - Once the injured area has reached a level of repair they stress the area to re gain basic functionality.  You see alot of stretching bands in this stage.

Stage 3 - Cleared to practice and the player is off trying to regain whatever performance attributes they lost.

This is what Burrow addressed after the Rams game.   There is always risk of re-injury but that does not mean Stage 1 gets them anywhere.    If he's truly in Stage 3 taking reps off the calf may delay his return to the fans expectations.   He probably needs reps and work.   This is what it sounded like he was saying post Rams game.  

 

 

 

 

[TJJackson]

its pretty clear he isnt right yet

take a week or three off, let stuff heal, then make a playoff (hopefully) run when it is fully rested and feels good

we have a good shot of winning against a team like Arizona with a backup qb

[COB]

I’ve got eyes in my head.  He’s not anywhere close to right.  Normally he’s very good at moving around to evade the rush.  Right now, not moving around.  

[HoosierCat]

Tee out today. Taylor says day-to-day.

Smith back at practice, not clear if he'll be full or limited.

[volcom69]

Burrow says the calf has not hurt his ability to throw the ball, it has hurt his mobility.

Then damn Joe what happened to your accuracy, where is the long ball at, if the calf has not hurt you throwing then something else is off

The video they showed though he looks good in practice moving around so hopefully that will be a good sign.

[Stripes]

I appreciate his confidence, but I doubt that’s true. He can’t plant and drive. It’s screwed up his entire mechanical approach, and mechanics are critical for him.

[volcom69]

3 minutes ago, Stripes said:

I appreciate his confidence, but I doubt that’s true. He can’t plant and drive. It’s screwed up his entire mechanical approach, and mechanics are critical for him.

QB school on YouTube has a good breakdown on the Bengals offense, and all I have to say is what a Shit Show it is. This O-line coach is the biggest crap and I swear has no clue how to coach these guys, and the whole offense is not on the same page at all. It’s worth a watch if anyone wanted to see the crap they put out there lol

[HoosierCat]

Jones had surgery on the thumb. Apparently successful, says he’ll be back for the Buffalo game.

[AMPHAR]

QB School and Caskey film reviews are awesome for this week.   

My thoughts are:

1. There's so much conjecture from guys that have been in NFL game plan meetings.   PFF grades aren't worth a crap. 

2. Major protection issues vs. Titans.   Caskey goes into more detail trying to explain why.   JT takes it at face value as being bad.   Caskey found fault with RBs chipping or lack there of numerous times.  Bottomline for me no matter what, it was bad.  Caskey shows several deep play concepts that ultimately get undermined by bad pass protection. 

3. Joe Burrow displays good mechanics sometimes. 

4. Most interesting was Caskey/JT opinions on the near Red Zone Int.   JT blames poor design/possible route error.    Caskey basically blames Burrow.   Pre Snap show Titans have 4 to cover 3 on both sides.    That left middle wide open and along with no D-line in middle.   Thought there should have been a check to QB draw up the middle.   Also noted it appeared Irwin darting underneath into the middle was the key concept that Burrow missed/ignored or whatever.   Thought this might be the same concept they used with Mixon in New Orleans to score a TD.     Its interesting because you have two guys still into coaching/ton of NFL game film review experience,  still having different takes on the same data.    No way in hell PFF is accurate in anything.

 

[HoosierCat]

OT: RIP Dick Butkus, bearer of the best football name ever.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/38577860/dick-butkus-hall-fame-linebacker-chicago-bears-dies

[ArmyBengal]

Andrew Billings sighting for the Bears tonight.

[COB]

2 hours ago, HoosierCat said:

OT: RIP Dick Butkus, bearer of the best football name ever.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/38577860/dick-butkus-hall-fame-linebacker-chicago-bears-dies

Bronco Nagurski