Andy Dalton Sucks!

[HoosierCat]

I see where mem is coming from. And the stats make the comparison not unreasonable. But I'm not sure about the taking risks/gunslinger mentality piece. Coley Harvey, quoting Jay Gruden, suggested an alternative explanation in a blog post on espn, that we have seen a third Andy, Greedy Andy. That indeed suggests a guy prone to taking risks, but when I read what they meant by Greedy Andy, it struck me that something like Lazy Andy would be more accurate. The crux of the issue is that when the offense gets rolling, Dalton tends to lose some of his attention to detail. So his throws are a little off or his reads not quite right and he plays himself into trouble. Anyhow, here's the story. It seems dead on to me.

/>http://espn.go.com/blog/cincinnati-bengals/post/_/id/4433/bengals-andy-dalton-nfl-playoffs-afc-ravens

[gregcook68]

Andy Dalton = Brett Favre? Holy crap my head is about to explode. I know this is a fan site. I know we love to win, and were starved for years. But Andy Dalton falls on his face in almost every big, nationally televised game. Why is everyone in here acting like this isn't the case? All the stuff you say is true, he's resilient, doesn't mope, is physically and mentally tough. I won't detail his inconsistency because at this point it'll probably get me banned, but there is a lot more to Andy's performance yesterday than "he threw 4 picks and we still won." Like a league leading defense, a receiver who got 8 yards past the safety for our first score, running backs and linemen who delivered the ground and pound when we needed it, 2nd year corner who finally did something (pick 6), etc. The Bengals won that game. Quarterback is the most important player on the modern offense. And our quarterback is the weakest link on our team. It just shows you how strong the Bengals are overall that they an overcome 4 picks and still walk away from the defending Super Bowl champs.

I'm not advocating dumping Andy, I see no point in spending the years trying to develop a new qb when we've got a servicable guy in there. But I'm not going to fret when the national media points out the obvious. Andy Dalton is Brett Favre? Seriously?

You have the pre-2004 Boston Red Sox

mentality! WE CAN'T WIN THE BIG GAME AND HOW ARE WE GOING TO BLOW IT THIS YEAR!

You are also comparing a retired Brett Favre to a 3rd year Andy Dalton!

I am comparing a 3rd year Andy Dalton to a 3rd year Brett Favre!

The comparison was the interception and TD ratio, because they were both gamblers!

Don't let the media and the past dictate your thinking!

Believe that our 2004 is on the horizon!

[redsbengalsbucks]

Andy Dalton = Brett Favre? Holy crap my head is about to explode. I know this is a fan site. I know we love to win, and were starved for years. But Andy Dalton falls on his face in almost every big, nationally televised game. Why is everyone in here acting like this isn't the case? All the stuff you say is true, he's resilient, doesn't mope, is physically and mentally tough. I won't detail his inconsistency because at this point it'll probably get me banned, but there is a lot more to Andy's performance yesterday than "he threw 4 picks and we still won." Like a league leading defense, a receiver who got 8 yards past the safety for our first score, running backs and linemen who delivered the ground and pound when we needed it, 2nd year corner who finally did something (pick 6), etc. The Bengals won that game. Quarterback is the most important player on the modern offense. And our quarterback is the weakest link on our team. It just shows you how strong the Bengals are overall that they an overcome 4 picks and still walk away from the defending Super Bowl champs.

I'm not advocating dumping Andy, I see no point in spending the years trying to develop a new qb when we've got a servicable guy in there. But I'm not going to fret when the national media points out the obvious. Andy Dalton is Brett Favre? Seriously?

Servicable, come on man he just set franchise records for TD's and yardage. Time to get of the hate train. He may not be Manning or Brady but he is the best the Bengals have had in a long time, probably Kenny.

[ArmyBengal]

COB, I think (correct me if i'm wrong Mem) that he was just trying to think about who Dalton reminded him of at this point in his career.

It wasn't an outright declaration that Dalton is Favre and will have the same results in his career.

I don't like those stat comparisons much either, but they do give you something to base expectations upon.

Such as seeing a guy like Manning not being so "Manning-esque" in his first few seasons, but going on to a great career.

There's nothing to say Dalton will go on to have a Manning career, but there's nothing stat wise to say he won't.

Then again, that's my whole thing with this. Everyone wants to compare Dalton to some of the all-time greats.

There simply aren't many Manning's, Brady's, and Favre's to come through a sport that often.

Brees and Rodgers seem close to that conversation as well, but we are talking about 5 guys ??

I don't think many are saying Dalton is without his share of "improvement needs", but I think people need to give him his due as well.

Someone has to throw the ball to those wide open receivers right ??

How is it no one is talking about how wide open Randall Cobb was yesterday ??

All you here is how Rodgers made the throw of the season and willed his team into the playoffs. Akili Smith could have made that throw.

Dalton has his areas to improve, but I am more than happy to give him the chance at improving them.

[gregcook68]

I see where mem is coming from. And the stats make the comparison not unreasonable. But I'm not sure about the taking risks/gunslinger mentality piece. Coley Harvey, quoting Jay Gruden, suggested an alternative explanation in a blog post on espn, that we have seen a third Andy, Greedy Andy. That indeed suggests a guy prone to taking risks, but when I read what they meant by Greedy Andy, it struck me that something like Lazy Andy would be more accurate. The crux of the issue is that when the offense gets rolling, Dalton tends to lose some of his attention to detail. So his throws are a little off or his reads not quite right and he plays himself into trouble. Anyhow, here's the story. It seems dead on to me.

/>http://espn.go.com/blog/cincinnati-bengals/post/_/id/4433/bengals-andy-dalton-nfl-playoffs-afc-ravens

I'm not saying I KNOW for sure how true this is or not HoosierCat, but I pay little attention on analysis, especially coming from someone who's NOT privy to practices, game and sideline strategy, play calling, audible changes.

I rarely listen to the talking heads for that very reason. Last night was an exception!

[HoosierCat]

It just struck me as something that seemed reasonable because I know I do it myself. And I doubt I'm alone. When things aren't going well that's when I tend to obsess over details, come in early and stay late, and do everything I can think of to make things work. When things are going well, I've been known to slack off. It's not an unfixable issue by any means. All Jay has to do is repeat Han Solo's classic line.

"Don't get cocky, kid!"

[membengal]

Hoosier, it was actually the cole piece that helped put it in my mind, as "greedy" marked much of favre's decision making throughout his career. For better or worse.

COB, I wasn't saying he is as good as Favre, just that his approach to risk- taking is putting me in the mind of remembering Favre. Did you follow the link? Lines up in terms of rating, Td rate and INt rate with dalton so far.

Your beef seems to be with Favre being perceived as a "big game" qb. And he was. At times. He also gambled to some awful results in big games as well.

Just saying, the "takes chances" part of dalton looks kinda familiar to me.

As for the rest of your screed, I yield to your hate. Have at it.

[COB]

I didn't follow the link. What about anything I've said puts me in the "hate" category. I think in just being realistic.

[101Airborne]

Andy Dalton = Brett Favre? Holy crap my head is about to explode. I know this is a fan site. I know we love to win, and were starved for years. But Andy Dalton falls on his face in almost every big, nationally televised game. Why is everyone in here acting like this isn't the case? All the stuff you say is true, he's resilient, doesn't mope, is physically and mentally tough. I won't detail his inconsistency because at this point it'll probably get me banned, but there is a lot more to Andy's performance yesterday than "he threw 4 picks and we still won." Like a league leading defense, a receiver who got 8 yards past the safety for our first score, running backs and linemen who delivered the ground and pound when we needed it, 2nd year corner who finally did something (pick 6), etc. The Bengals won that game. Quarterback is the most important player on the modern offense. And our quarterback is the weakest link on our team. It just shows you how strong the Bengals are overall that they an overcome 4 picks and still walk away from the defending Super Bowl champs.

I'm not advocating dumping Andy, I see no point in spending the years trying to develop a new qb when we've got a servicable guy in there. But I'm not going to fret when the national media points out the obvious. Andy Dalton is Brett Favre? Seriously?

My issue with the media is that they don't just "point out the obvious", they make stupid, inept "analysis" while flinging around as many cliches and buzz-words as possible. We can sit here and detail every one of Andy's inconsistencies, talk about his bad throws that lead to INTs, how he over throws wide open guys, how he forces balls into tight coverages when no one's open, how he takes bad sacks at crucial points in games. But you know what other quarterback does those things? Everyone, absolutely everyone.

So how DO we assess a QB if they all make bone-headed decisions and play without consistency at times? Well, we look at their over-all record and their stats. And if we do that with Andy, instead of just regurgitating ESPN's cliche du jour, what we find is a QB with a winning record who just broke our franchise records for yards and TDs. And to any who would quickly point out that he did this because he has a good team around him, so freaking what? It's not like this game is played in a vacuum. You know who else has a really talented team around him with an all-pro receiver and a solid defense? Matty Stafford, the guy who personally led his talented franchise right out of the playoffs.

EDIT: Just want to be clear, I'm not trying to be antagonistic with what I say here. I don't see any reason to label you a hater. I just want to counter the idea that Andy is somehow a problem and liability instead of an asset. The only point you made that I'd say I straight out don't agree with is that Andy is the weakest link. If he is the weakest link, he's a record setting one.

[membengal]

If you are not going to look at favre's stats, including his rather high int totals, and his passer rartings in his career, then you miss the point I was making with respect to favre's in game mentality and Dalton's.

As for the rest of it, I know you hate dalton, part of why I took a hiatus from the board was not warning to fight over it. Fact is , dalton just set franchise records for TD passes and yards. That has some meaning, I would submit. And did so against one of the toughest schedules in the league.

He's more than serviceable, I would think.

But again, I yield to your hate. The narrative around dalton continues to be a bit disconnected from reality.

[HoosierCat]

The narrative around dalton continues to be a bit disconnected from reality.

I chalk it up to proximity. Most Bengals fans see and read and hear much more about Andy than any other QB. And since they are fans, the celebrate his highs and agonize over his lows more deeply than any other QB. And there's nothing wrong with that; it's part of what being a fan is all about.

Not being local, I think you and I get a bit of a different perspective. We are in other NFL markets where it's another QB who gets the 24/7 coverage. I can't imagine what's been said and written about Flacco's season in Baltimore this year but I bet it isn't good. Me, I get the joy that is Jay Cutler. If I had a nickle for every time I've heard about his bad decision-making, habit of throwing picks, not seeing open guys on the field, overthrowing/underthrowing receivers etc. and whether the Bears should give him a big-bucks extension even though he's won just 1 playoff game in 8 seasons...I'd have a lot of nickels.

Now, just because the criticisms of Dalton are commonly made of other QBs as well doesn't mean that Dalton doesn't have issues. He might even really be the weak link. (You can sure make that argument about Cutler after what McCown showed in Chicago!) I don't think that's the case, but it could be. The only thing that will tell the tale is time. Step one: beat San Diego. To repeat a mantra from the Bad Old Days: Win and it all goes away.

[gregcook68]

I don't think, as a whole, the monkey will be off his back if they win Sunday.

It took Matt Ryan 4 tries (years) to win a playoff game, despite the fact that in those 4 years, the Falcons had the best combined season record in the NFL. Do you think the monkey is off his back by finally winning a playoff game last year, despite the dismal 4-12 season this year due to injuries and lack of depth?

[101Airborne]

The narrative around dalton continues to be a bit disconnected from reality.

I chalk it up to proximity. Most Bengals fans see and read and hear much more about Andy than any other QB. And since they are fans, the celebrate his highs and agonize over his lows more deeply than any other QB. And there's nothing wrong with that; it's part of what being a fan is all about.

Not being local, I think you and I get a bit of a different perspective. We are in other NFL markets where it's another QB who gets the 24/7 coverage. I can't imagine what's been said and written about Flacco's season in Baltimore this year but I bet it isn't good. Me, I get the joy that is Jay Cutler. If I had a nickle for every time I've heard about his bad decision-making, habit of throwing picks, not seeing open guys on the field, overthrowing/underthrowing receivers etc. and whether the Bears should give him a big-bucks extension even though he's won just 1 playoff game in 8 seasons...I'd have a lot of nickels.

Now, just because the criticisms of Dalton are commonly made of other QBs as well doesn't mean that Dalton doesn't have issues. He might even really be the weak link. (You can sure make that argument about Cutler after what McCown showed in Chicago!) I don't think that's the case, but it could be. The only thing that will tell the tale is time. Step one: beat San Diego. To repeat a mantra from the Bad Old Days: Win and it all goes away.

What I have to continuously wonder is by what measure we judge Dalton a failure. I don't buy the weak link argument because it seems to me people are engaged in one of the most tried and true fallacies in football; they give the team the credit when they win and give Andy the credit when they lose. Every touchdown he throws is because his receivers are great, while every INT he throws, even if his receiver bobbled it or ran the wrong route, or he got hit as he threw, is on him. We give AJ tons of credit, but no one was riding his ass last year when he lead the whole AFC in drops. People talk about how bad Andy played in the playoffs, and he did, but hardly a whisper about Gresham's paddle-hands.

In my eyes, Dalton has improved in every way, every year, save this year's interception problem. He is on an incline as far as maturity and ability and he's doing it while the team maintains a level of success we've not seen possibly ever. I get why people don't think he's a great QB, because he's not. He's a good QB who might become great. What I do know though, is that Andy Dalton isn't a s**tty QB, and is getting better and not worse. The stats back this up and so do the wins, so I just don't get the hate.

[essexjohnson]

The number that has to change is 20 interceptions, let's hope that ends up being his career high

If anyone can't see that he's improved every year overall, they are crazy

[HoosierCat]

What I have to continuously wonder is by what measure we judge Dalton a failure. I don't buy the weak link argument because it seems to me people are engaged in one of the most tried and true fallacies in football; they give the team the credit when they win and give Andy the credit when they lose. Every touchdown he throws is because his receivers are great, while every INT he throws, even if his receiver bobbled it or ran the wrong route, or he got hit as he threw, is on him. We give AJ tons of credit, but no one was riding his ass last year when he lead the whole AFC in drops. People talk about how bad Andy played in the playoffs, and he did, but hardly a whisper about Gresham's paddle-hands.

I chalk a lot of that up to the sports media, which has for years now pushed an "it's all about the QB" narrative. It's simplistic, lazy and mostly wrong -- but also probably about what the casual fan is prepared to digest. I don't mean that to sound elitist or arrogant, just that I don't think the average fan spends much, if any, time looking at frame-by-frame breakdowns of plays, reading in-depth analysis or most of the kind of stuff we like to do here. In other words, we're the outliers.

Just as an example, take footballoutsiders.com. Been around for years. Charts every play in every game. Feeds it into a complicated system to produce "DVOA" and "DYAR" rankings for teams and players and all sorts of other metrics. But they have remained a niche product.

Now look at Pro Football Focus. Popped up a couple of years ago. Also charts every play in every game. However, they just use a simple points-based grading system to produce a plus or minus grade for every player. EVERYBODY cites them, so much so that Marvin was compelled to call them a "dumb ass web site" when reporters kept throwing Maualuga's poor numbers in his face after they re-signed Rey.

Again, I don't want this to sound elitist or insulting. The crazy people in this case are us. The average sports fan just wants to cheer for wins and to have someone to blame for losses. In football, that lucky ducky is the QB.

[101Airborne]

What I have to continuously wonder is by what measure we judge Dalton a failure. I don't buy the weak link argument because it seems to me people are engaged in one of the most tried and true fallacies in football; they give the team the credit when they win and give Andy the credit when they lose. Every touchdown he throws is because his receivers are great, while every INT he throws, even if his receiver bobbled it or ran the wrong route, or he got hit as he threw, is on him. We give AJ tons of credit, but no one was riding his ass last year when he lead the whole AFC in drops. People talk about how bad Andy played in the playoffs, and he did, but hardly a whisper about Gresham's paddle-hands.

I chalk a lot of that up to the sports media, which has for years now pushed an "it's all about the QB" narrative. It's simplistic, lazy and mostly wrong -- but also probably about what the casual fan is prepared to digest. I don't mean that to sound elitist or arrogant, just that I don't think the average fan spends much, if any, time looking at frame-by-frame breakdowns of plays, reading in-depth analysis or most of the kind of stuff we like to do here. In other words, we're the outliers.

Just as an example, take footballoutsiders.com. Been around for years. Charts every play in every game. Feeds it into a complicated system to produce "DVOA" and "DYAR" rankings for teams and players and all sorts of other metrics. But they have remained a niche product.

Now look at Pro Football Focus. Popped up a couple of years ago. Also charts every play in every game. However, they just use a simple points-based grading system to produce a plus or minus grade for every player. EVERYBODY cites them, so much so that Marvin was compelled to call them a "dumb ass web site" when reporters kept throwing Maualuga's poor numbers in his face after they re-signed Rey.

Again, I don't want this to sound elitist or insulting. The crazy people in this case are us. The average sports fan just wants to cheer for wins and to have someone to blame for losses. In football, that lucky ducky is the QB.

I buy what you're selling here, and I agree. I've always dogged the sports media pretty badly because they are just about the laziest bunch of "journalists" I've ever seen. While I can excuse them for perhaps simplifying things for fans who have a more casual (and no less important) approach to the game, I can't excuse the blatant idiocy. It's not like you can't write an article that is at once informative, simple and actually meshes with some kind of reality. It's especially problematic because you're right, people read this schlock and buy into it, no matter how ridiculous it is on its face.

I don't mean to sound like if someone doesn't agree with me, they are an idiot. There are legitimate reasons to be concerned with Dalton's play. The issue I have is with the people who act as if he's total, unsalvageable garbage and the team would be better off dumping him and drafting a new QB or going out and grabbing Josh Freeman or Ryan Mallet instead. :frustrated:/>

[gregcook68]

The number that has to change is 20 interceptions, let's hope that ends up being his career high

If anyone can't see that he's improved every year overall, they are crazy

Favre had 6 seasons of 20+ picks:

21

22

23

23

24

29

Is it safe to now say we'd prefer Andy be better than Favre?

[TJJackson]

going out and grabbing Josh Freeman or Ryan Mallet instead.

I wouldn't mind bringing those two in ......as possible backups

[Sea Ray]

The number that has to change is 20 interceptions, let's hope that ends up being his career high

If anyone can't see that he's improved every year overall, they are crazy

Favre had 6 seasons of 20+ picks:

21

22

23

23

24

29

Is it safe to now say we'd prefer Andy be better than Favre?

When you have arm strength like Favre, you tolerate more picks. That said, Favre's penchant for picks is what puts him a notch under the best QBs in NFL history

[essexjohnson]

I've never gotten all the Favre love. Didn't he lose more playoff games with ill advised throws than he ever won? His iron man record is impressive though

[101Airborne]

The number that has to change is 20 interceptions, let's hope that ends up being his career high

If anyone can't see that he's improved every year overall, they are crazy

Favre had 6 seasons of 20+ picks:

21

22

23

23

24

29

Is it safe to now say we'd prefer Andy be better than Favre?

When you have arm strength like Favre, you tolerate more picks. That said, Favre's penchant for picks is what puts him a notch under the best QBs in NFL history

That goes along with that whole bit about expecting QBs with limitations to play consistently. What difference does it make whether a QB has a trebuchet for an arm if he loses games for you? All the physical abilities a player has means jack if he doesn't have the ethic, personality, leadership, decision making ect. to put those physical skills to use. Are Andy's INTs worse than Farve's because Farve had a big arm? I'm not saying Farve didn't have those other traits as well, but I do reject the notion that INTs are okay just so long as you can bomb the ball 80 yards from your knees.

[membengal]

Echo what Airborne just said.

If a hypothetical person was okay with Favre's picks in light of his overall success, then they should be with Andy as well. Because, even with the INTs, Andy was wildly productive running this offense this year.

[Sea Ray]

Echo what Airborne just said.

If a hypothetical person was okay with Favre's picks in light of his overall success, then they should be with Andy as well. Because, even with the INTs, Andy was wildly productive running this offense this year.

A guy with Favre's arm is making plays that Dalton can't. It's like in MLB, you tolerate BBs from guys who miss bats but not so much from soft throwers. As for the NFL, Dalton doesn't make the play that A-Rod did to win the game yesterday for the Packers.. If a guy makes a few of those then you can live with a few of the INTs

[membengal]

Agree to disagree.

[ArmyBengal]

As for the NFL, Dalton doesn't make the play that A-Rod did to win the game yesterday for the Packers.

I mentioned that very play earlier today.

People want to say "If Green weren't so wide open, Dalton doesn't make that throw", but Randall Cobb did the same thing and all you hear is how Rodgers made the throw of the century. It's total bullsh*t. My little sister could have thrown that pass to Randall Cobb yesterday with the same result.