Official Lockout Thread

[HairOnFire]

This one stinks a bit of agents deliberately lying about the amount of interest teams are showing towards the undrafted free agents they represent. Or if you prefer, another demonstration of agents making up rumors they hope will spur more interest and higher bidding by using the names of whatever NFL teams are thought most likely to need post-draft help at a certain position.

I'm guessing he only difference between this year and last is how quickly observers will investigate the unfounded rumors due to the lockout.

[membengal]

The ruling from the 8th circuit today on the stay could NOT have gone worse for the players.

Leverage back with the owners now. In a big big way.

[membengal]

sportsline.com with helpful reading:

Freeman:

/>http://www.cbssports.com/#!/nfl/story/15070798/nfl-players-need-to-accept-reality-and-admit-defeat

A taste:

The former union isn't stupid. They see the same thing. While reports of a mediation breakthrough in Minneapolis are extremely optimistic the union now has to be in a better mood to listen because the 8th circuit has given the owners the biggest hammer to date. It's a hammer that would make Thor envious.

I'm told that, contrary to a report by ESPN, there has been no meaningful progress in mediation. The players need to cut a deal now. This doesn't mean they take scraps from the owners. Thank you sir, may I have another. No, not like that. Take the best possible deal and get back to work because the courts have sent a message. Ignoring that message would be foolhardy and cost the players both money and the loyalty of fans that so far have mostly backed the players.

The players lost and while owners shouldn't be doing any touchdown dances the signal sent by the 8th is clear.

It's probably over.

Question seems to be how long players will drag their feet in engaging in meaningful negotiations. Even if Doty tries to hand them damages on the TV money issue, the owners will just appeal that...right back to the same 8th Circuit.

Clark Judge also at sportsline:

/>http://www.cbssports.com/#!/nfl/story/15070964/ruling-gives-nfl-a-win-leaves-players-with-little-leverage

A taste:

Once upon a time, a June 3 hearing in a St. Louis courtroom was supposed to determine what happens with the NFL lockout, but not anymore. The 8th Circuit Court of Appeals on Monday all but guaranteed it will favor the league when it hears from the two sides next month.

Meaning? Meaning the NFL just pulled a rabbit out of its hat. I know, a decision won't be forthcoming until mid-to-late June, but the drama that was supposed to exist then won't -- not after what the court just did. And what it did was not only grant the league its motion to continue a two-month lockout; it delivered the NFL a triumph so decisive it could force players into retreat.

Until now, they believed -- and with good reason -- that their best interests rested with the courts, and until now they had the record to prove it. But Monday's ruling wasn't just a defeat for players; it was Gettysburg, with the 8th Circuit turning back players by telling us that it doesn't buy the argument that they're suffering "irreparable harm."

So what? So it means the players' cause just went into reverse. The appellate court almost surely will overrule Judge Susan Nelson's injunction, keeping the lockout in place, preventing players from collecting checks and giving the NFL the momentum it lacked until now.

What that means in the short run is that nothing changes as far as the league is concerned. The lockout that is there this month will be there next month. What it means from a larger perspective is more intriguing, with players forced to re-evaluate a strategy that, until now, worked and worked effectively.

For weeks, NFL lawyers argued that the dispute with players was a labor issue, not an antitrust case, and that it should be treated as one. But Judge Nelson disagreed, causing some observers to infer that the NFL was fighting a losing battle and calling on it to surrender.

But listen to what the appellate court said Monday, and tell me who's backpedaling now.

...

All I know is that Monday's decision is a welcome victory for a league that desperately needed one and a potentially crippling blow to its players. As you might expect, the NFL followed the decision by calling on players to negotiate, not litigate, and this time I suggest they listen because this time it's the NFL, not the players, who hold the leverage.

Only this time, it looks like more than just leverage. It looks like game, set and match.

[membengal]

Mods, I didn't start a new thread with this as this seemed a good place for it, altho it doesn't match the header now. Might be it needs its own thread.

[ArmyBengal]

Mods, I didn't start a new thread with this as this seemed a good place for it, altho it doesn't match the header now. Might be it needs its own thread.

Got it, I just changed the title to a catch all thread for the lockout.

Thanks Mem.

[membengal]

Mods, I didn't start a new thread with this as this seemed a good place for it, altho it doesn't match the header now. Might be it needs its own thread.

Got it, I just changed the title to a catch all thread for the lockout.

Thanks Mem.

Thanks Army. At this point, the players union is bordering on being the chicken whose head has just been removed. The question is when they will realize it and lie down. Time and attrition is on the owners' side, and it will only get worse from here for the players. Even if Doty tries to give the players some money, another appeal will immediately be forthcoming, to a panel that appears to be owner friendly. Unless one of the two judges who just upheld the stay has a major change in thought process, the outcome of the June 3 arguments doesn't look to be in doubt.

Not sure what players can do from here but posture and, in the end, cut whatever deal they can.

[Sea Ray]

As a fan I'm greatly disappointed in how the media, and let's face it, in sports the media is ESPN, has reported on this. Us fans don't know how to sort out this legal mumbo jumbo so we rely on so called experts like Lester Munsun to make some sense of it. Just a few weeks ago he was reporting that the owners had little chance of overturning Judge Nelson's decision because she wrote such a thorough 89 page report that essentially made it appeal proof.

/>http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/commentary/news/story?page=munson/110428

Now all ESPN seems to have forgotten all that and they're now leading us to believe the 8th Circuit court is in the bag for the owners.

I have no legal training by I found it odd that a Judge could make an employer open his doors. It seems that the 8th Circuit agrees with me. Who needs guys like Munson if they can't give us better insight than that?

[membengal]

I have legal training, and, yes, ESPN probably overdid the initial ruling. This whole game was at the appellate level and the 8th Circuit is indeed a conservative court, and I think I said so somewhere on these boards a time or two.

I was critical of the players decertifying and heading to court for just this reason. The players believed they had the high ground but there are very few certainties when it comes to legal arguments and outcomes. Even with their previous successes in court, nothing was assured once the 8th Circuit got involved. And now the players have boxed themselves in a bit. I will be curious how Smith and his players deal with this. If they keep relying on arguing in court to resolve this, the 2011 season is lost. Bottom line. Even with an expedited hearing and decision, it is going to be mid-to-late June before the judges rule. And if the players lose that, and looking at the verbiage from yesterdays ruling on the stay, the players look to be starting from behind, they can try an En Banc appeal to the entire 8th circuit judges. But THAT takes time, and is no more certain of changing things. And even if they win that, the owners can still appeal to the US Supreme Court, and it takes MORE time for the US Supreme Court to decide whether they would hear such an appeal and ever MORE time to brief it and have oral argument. And, by the way, the Supreme Court "gang of five" (Roberts, Scalia, Kennedy, Alito and Thomas) are highly UNLIKELY to see things for the players. Highly unlikely.

At some point in there, around the En Banc appeal process, too much time passes and the season goes boom. That's why this was such a dicey road from the jump...

Look, I am a lawyer, and I am sure my brothers and sisters in the profession appreciate the business and billable hours, but this thing is NOT going to get done anytime soon with it being argued in court.

The players need to get to the table and work hard to cut a deal. Bottom line.

ETA: Not sure if COB (he's a lawyer, right? or am I mixing him up with someone else) or Greg see it the same way, but that's my take at this point in time...

ETA Part II: From this post and quote at PFT from Drew Brees, it appears the players are still in denial or their lawyers are more optimistic than they have any right to be... http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/05/17/pash-reiterates-that-the-time-is-now-to-get-a-deal-done/

[ct_bengal]

I don't think this decision ruling is a bad move for fans, if anything it's a slap in the face to the players whom i.ve felt are really the ones costing us the season. To me they never really took the negotiation process seriously in the first place and were planning to drag this out. Now It forces them to negotiate where ultimately things will have to be decided anyways. If the NFLPA doens.t recognize it's cooked, it's going to be a long offseason...

[HoosierCat]

The players need to get to the table and work hard to cut a deal. Bottom line.

Not going to happen until the TV money case gets resolved.

FWIW, I've already written off the 2011 season. My bet is that it's either not going to happen at all, or it's going to be a half-assed fiasco featuring fewer games and a bunch of unprepared teams and out-of-shape players.

[membengal]

The players need to get to the table and work hard to cut a deal. Bottom line.

Not going to happen until the TV money case gets resolved.

FWIW, I've already written off the 2011 season. My bet is that it's either not going to happen at all, or it's going to be a half-assed fiasco featuring fewer games and a bunch of unprepared teams and out-of-shape players.

I addressed that somewhere above in the quoted stuff from Freeman and Judge. IF the players are waiting on Doty to rule on that, it will simply put things off further, as any decision from Doty will be appealed right back to...the 8th Circuit.

Again, bottom line, leverage is gone-zo for the players in terms of court stuff, and even if they think they can ultimately prevail there (far from a certainty), the season will be lost in the meantime.

[membengal]

I don't think this decision ruling is a bad move for fans, if anything it's a slap in the face to the players whom i.ve felt are really the ones costing us the season. To me they never really took the negotiation process seriously in the first place and were planning to drag this out. Now It forces them to negotiate where ultimately things will have to be decided anyways. If the NFLPA doens.t recognize it's cooked, it's going to be a long offseason...

That's pretty much it. Hence my chicken-with-head-cut-off-and-needing-to-acknowledge-that-and-laydown analogy. The longer this players litigation chicken carcass runs around missing its head, the more jeapordy for the season.

[ArmyBengal]

My lawn is going to look really good this year !!!

Maybe even get that retaining wall up...

[COB]

ESPN acts like the players should just fold their tent now. The owners didn't just quit when they got some bad court rulings a month or so ago.

All this, "it's over, the players must capitulate"!", is based on the false premise that the whole thing is based on who wins in court, but it's not. The court rulings in question are all related to the lockout and the players' requested injuction to lift that lockout. The players can totally lose this, and all it means is that the owners get their way regarding this season. They opted out of the CBA that had two years left, then locked the players out. The players want a CBA that has revenue sharing similar to the last one. The court rulings in no way have said, "No, you may not have a new CBA with terms you like".

The players would like the court system to do their heavy lifting, but that may not come to pass.

The owners are prepared for one year without football. If the players want to win, they need the resolve and backbone to sit two seasons. The owners will, in my opinion, give them whatever they want once they've gone two years without revenue.

The players likely don't have the staying power to last two seasons, at least that's what the owners are banking on.

The players' options are:

1. Win such huge damages in court (this is an issue being litigated separately from the lockout injunction) on the tv money issue that the owners will be forced to the table by the prospect of giving the players a deal they like in exchange for dropping the money damages. The players asked for 700 million plus in compensatory damages and triple that in punitive damages.

2. Option 1 fails and you do it the old fashioned way, ie get Boomer Esiason to lay down in front of a truck for 2 years.

I agree with Mem that both sides are probably using big name NYC law firms, so they'll both probably be bled so dry in a few months that the original issues will go away and both sides will want to end it just to get away from their own lawyers.

[membengal]

My premise is that court isn't really helping either of them at this point. Which, weirdly, sounds like an owner position, but in this case, the owners are not wrong. They need to hammer out a deal, and that needs to be done with honest and hard-bargained negotiations. Legal maneuvering just isn't helpful to either side, frankly. So much uncertainty at this point. Even with the players loving them some Judge Doty, all is appeallable, and the playing field changes on appeal.

[HoosierCat]

IF the players are waiting on Doty to rule on that, it will simply put things off further, as any decision from Doty will be appealed right back to...the 8th Circuit.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Doty already did rule, in the players' favor. All we're waiting to hear is if they get big damages or mondo-mega-pimped-out damages. And of course that will be appealed, but it's always seemed to me that the TV $$$ case was a lot stronger for the players than the lockout case. In any event, though, it seems to me that the stage is set for a long siege, with the owners allowed to lock out the players while the courts also give players the cash to withstand a lost season.

[membengal]

IF the players are waiting on Doty to rule on that, it will simply put things off further, as any decision from Doty will be appealed right back to...the 8th Circuit.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Doty already did rule, in the players' favor. All we're waiting to hear is if they get big damages or mondo-mega-pimped-out damages. And of course that will be appealed, but it's always seemed to me that the TV $$$ case was a lot stronger for the players than the lockout case. In any event, though, it seems to me that the stage is set for a long siege, with the owners allowed to lock out the players while the courts also give players the cash to withstand a lost season.

And when he assigns the damages...the appeal will follow. By "rule", I am talking about him putting a dollar figure with it.

As for the long siege stuff...that's where it tilts against the players. They will, at some point, as game checks are threatened, start to cave. I don't think they are going to be able to hold off long into the fall. And even if a Doty ruling on the cash damages over the TV money dealie is a carrot, the appeal will keep them from the carrot for awhile. And, depending on the ruling, could be quite awhile. My understanding is a Doty ruling would NOT be immediate cash, if it were appealed. And it will with 100% certainty be appealed.

Again, bottom line, the way to "save face" for Smith and the players association is to negotiate. And that, frankly, is something they have not had a lot of zeal for up to now. And when they were winning every legal battle, I guess I get that position. But now that there is some uncertainty with regard to how the legal battles will play out, it may provide some incentive for them to pay a little more attention to mediation.

[HoosierCat]

And that's it for negotiations until June as all eyes turn to judge Doty. Sigh.

Apropos of nothing...

/>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HfMUGsniJ8

[TJJackson]

The Trunk Monkey is always appropriate

[Sea Ray]

The owners are prepared for one year without football. If the players want to win, they need the resolve and backbone to sit two seasons. The owners will, in my opinion, give them whatever they want once they've gone two years without revenue.

The players likely don't have the staying power to last two seasons, at least that's what the owners are banking on.

The players' options are:

1. Win such huge damages in court (this is an issue being litigated separately from the lockout injunction) on the tv money issue that the owners will be forced to the table by the prospect of giving the players a deal they like in exchange for dropping the money damages. The players asked for 700 million plus in compensatory damages and triple that in punitive damages.

2. Option 1 fails and you do it the old fashioned way, ie get Boomer Esiason to lay down in front of a truck for 2 years.

I agree with Mem that both sides are probably using big name NYC law firms, so they'll both probably be bled so dry in a few months that the original issues will go away and both sides will want to end it just to get away from their own lawyers.

If it comes down to staying power the owners win. Football player careers are too short. If they stay out two years or three off seasons, half the players wouldn't have jobs to come back to. That's too high a price to pay

I agree with you that ESPN is burying the players too quickly. At this point they might as well see what comes of the June hearing

[BengalPimp]

My lawn is going to look really good this year !!!

Maybe even get that retaining wall up...

My prediction?

---A lot of people's lawns will look nicer from Sept-Dec

---You will actually see men in a Shopping Mall on Sundays (dragged there by their wives/girlfriends)

---Attendances at Church will spike drastically in Sept-Dec

---Baseball ratings go THROUGH THE ROOF in Sept, Oct as it will be just about the only real sport in Season.

---Gone will be Super Bowl pools, replaced by "when will the lockout end" pools

---Bookie's start taking action on Dodgeball, Kickball, Ping Pong, and Professional Lawn Darts to make up for the loss of Football action.

[BengalszoneBilly]

---Baseball ratings go THROUGH THE ROOF in Sept, Oct as it will be just about the only real sport in Season.

The Nascar fan in me hates you for those words.

[ArmyBengal]

My lawn is going to look really good this year !!!

Maybe even get that retaining wall up...

My prediction?

---A lot of people's lawns will look nicer from Sept-Dec

---You will actually see men in a Shopping Mall on Sundays (dragged there by their wives/girlfriends)

---Attendances at Church will spike drastically in Sept-Dec

---Baseball ratings go THROUGH THE ROOF in Sept, Oct as it will be just about the only real sport in Season.

---Gone will be Super Bowl pools, replaced by "when will the lockout end" pools

---Bookie's start taking action on Dodgeball, Kickball, Ping Pong, and Professional Lawn Darts to make up for the loss of Football action.

And to top it all off, NO FANTASY FOOTBALL !!!

AAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH !!!

After back to back championships at my office, this was going to be the first time doing a Bengalszone team.

SH*T !!!

[BengalszoneBilly]

And to top it all off, NO FANTASY FOOTBALL !!!

AAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH !!!

After back to back championships at my office, this was going to be the first time doing a Bengalszone team.

SH*T !!!

After my performance in fantasy football the last few seasons, maybe a year off would do me good.

[Sea Ray]

One of the "experts" at ESPN, Lester Munson, originally said Judge Nelson's 89 page ruling was nearly appeal proof and now he's saying that the owners will likely prevail on June 3rd. He now says what he should have said all along and that's that opinions can differ. Here's a site that lists both of his articles:

/>http://search.espn.go.com/lester-munson/

The bottomline is that this is in the legal battleground now and not a Boardroom. Thus it looks to be a long, drawnout mess which we kinda figured all along