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THE CHANGES THREAD...Marvin to return

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Please do not resign Marvin. Marvin has no game management, cannot control his players and fails to identify talent or get the most out of his players. Even if we forget about Simpson, look at players like Ahmad Brooks or Matt Toeaiana. The guys were drafted here, never amounted to much and were lost to either being cut or being snatched from the practice squad. A good coach can identify talent or potential and coach that player up enough to get something out of them.

There was an article on Espn today regarding diamonds in the rough or players who were not drafted but turned out to be good players. I believe that there was one or two players from the bengals. Most teams had 4 or 5, and some like the patriots had 10-12. My point is, even if Mike Brown is ruining the drafts, Marvin isnt doing much to get the most out of his players while they are here.

Goodbye Marvin. Give me Zimmer, at least I wont have to listen to a stupid nervous laugh and smart ass comments during the post game.

So true, and not only do i blame Marvin, but i blame the rest of this no good coaching staff. Im sorry but your telling me that the Hayes brothers are so great, really if you ask me they are both horrible coaches!

Alexander is even worse, who the hell starts Nate Livings...really he flat out sucks! I have been wanting to see more and more of Mathis all year, but no something about Livings that must get Alexander going. Cook also needs to go, or go back to being a back up, he is getting thrown around like nothing.

Time for big changes with this coaching staff, the fact that talent is just sitting on the bench, even when the season is over they are still sitting there just shows what a joke these guys really are. Knowing this org. there will be hardly any changes, and next year will suck just as bad!

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Predictions:

What are your thoughts on these questions?

1. Will Marvin be back as our HC? I think he will. Other coaches (from other teams) have been fired already but there is no evidence of the Bengals letting him go. He was the coach of the year last year and we’re now winning, which indicates improvement to management. What are your thoughts?

2. Will Chad be back in a Bengal uniform after this Sunday’s game against the Ravens? I say no, I think he’s proven with his lack of focus that he doesn’t belong here anymore. Chad is too concerned with Twitter and face book to be playing football. I wish him the best of luck but the Bengals have proven that they can win without him. What are your thoughts on Chad?

3. Will we resign TO? This is a tough one. TO actually performed for us and didn’t cause any trouble. Now there were a few plays that he quit on us, but the Bengals might overlook that and resign him for his experience. What are your thoughts?

4. Will there be coaching changes/ will Brat be back? I think he'll be back because once again, the Bengals showed improvement at the end of the season by winning a few games. I hope we go in a different direction with a different guy, but I’m not so sure it’ll happen.

5. Palmer will be back! The Bengals love the golden boy and won’t entertain a trade!

I’m like you guys, I want to win, but winning now is not helping us for the future. The more we win the less we have in a draft pick. Like I said before, we can draft a QB, OL or whatever we think we need with a top 5 pick or we can trade if for more picks. By winning these meaningless games at the end of the season only lets the Bengals know that we’re improving and there is no need for change. It’s happened before and it’ll happen again this year.

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I shall resist the urge to respond to the specific questions you ask and your particular takes on those questions, opting merely to answer the question posed in the title thread...

What will we see the Bengals do?

I envision it has something to do with Mike Brown, his thumbs, and his a$$.

Configure those elements however you see fit.

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First my personal opinion, followed by my prediction of what will happen.

1. Will Marvin be back as our HC?

Make me the boss and I would have fired him after the loss to Tampa Bay in week 5. But I'm not the boss and if forced to guess what the Bengals will do I lean towards them bringing him back after he signs a short term contract that includes none of the things he was said to be holding out for.

2. Will Chad be back in a Bengal uniform after this Sunday’s game against the Ravens?

Make the boss and I would have traded Chad, both this season before the trade deadline passed and last season as well. I loudly advocated both. That said, after Sunday I'd cut the guy loose without a second thought given to trade or financial concerns. As for what the Bengals will do, I say they junk him, as deserved.

3. Will we resign TO? This is a tough one.

Actually, because of his age this one is easier for me than the Chad example. I say hell no. Best, I think the Bengals will feel the same.

4. Will there be coaching changes/ will Brat be back?

If it were up to me I'd fire Brat immediately after the Raven game, then fire him again when he walked out of the building, then fire him again when he reached the parking lot. And as soon as his car disappeared from sight I'd pull out my cell and fire him by phone. Propably leave an unpleasant message on his answering machine if he didn't pick up. As for what the Bengals will do? I'd put his odds of staying at 51%.

5. Palmer will be back! The Bengals love the golden boy and won’t entertain a trade!

Never doubted it seriously, especially when it became clear they wouldn't have the 1st overall pick.

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If it were up to me I'd fire Brat immediately after the Raven game, then fire him again when he walked out of the building, then fire him again when he reached the parking lot. And as soon as his car disappeared from sight I'd pull out my cell and fire him by phone. Propably leave an unpleasant message on his answering machine if he didn't pick up. As for what the Bengals will do? I'd put his odds of staying at 51%.

Can Alexander join him?

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I'm really hoping the Bengals surprise us all with some balls, the way they did when they cut Brian Simmons. I have a feeling though that if Marvin returns, they'll all return. The only one I want is Palmer.

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From Pfffffttttttt......

Marvin Lewis expects to know his fate by Tuesday

Posted by Gregg Rosenthal on December 29, 2010, 5:46 PM EST

Despite some recent optimistic quotes, Bengals coach Marvin Lewis is expected to become a coaching free agent after the season. He doesn’t expect a long delay before learning about his future in Cincinnati.

“I think we’ll know something there by Monday or Tuesday,” Lewis told Thomas George of Fanhouse.com. “We [bengals owner Mike Brown and Lewis] talk every day about the future. About the football team, the players and the personnel.

“We’ve got to decide how it is going to be. His vision of the football team and mine. There are certain things he wants to emphasize with me. Things that are important to him. I expect to hear those.”

Lewis owned leverage after winning Coach of the Year last season. He hinted at possible structural changes in the organization that held up a possible deal back in February. Since then, he has generally stayed tight-lipped about his status. After a deeply disappointing campaign, the leverage is gone.

Lewis doesn’t expect to simply be told he’s not welcome back. Rather, he believes that he’ll discuss his vision with Brown and see if the two men can come to an understanding. The odds seem against that happening.

“We planned to talk more about the future after the season was over and that’s what’s next,” Lewis said. “I think we all know when you get in this business, there is going to be an end at some point and time. It doesn’t have to be negative.”

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From Pfffffttttttt......

Marvin Lewis expects to know his fate by Tuesday

Posted by Gregg Rosenthal on December 29, 2010, 5:46 PM EST

Despite some recent optimistic quotes, Bengals coach Marvin Lewis is expected to become a coaching free agent after the season. He doesn’t expect a long delay before learning about his future in Cincinnati.

“I think we’ll know something there by Monday or Tuesday,” Lewis told Thomas George of Fanhouse.com. “We [bengals owner Mike Brown and Lewis] talk every day about the future. About the football team, the players and the personnel.

“We’ve got to decide how it is going to be. His vision of the football team and mine. There are certain things he wants to emphasize with me. Things that are important to him. I expect to hear those.”

Lewis owned leverage after winning Coach of the Year last season. He hinted at possible structural changes in the organization that held up a possible deal back in February. Since then, he has generally stayed tight-lipped about his status. After a deeply disappointing campaign, the leverage is gone.

Lewis doesn’t expect to simply be told he’s not welcome back. Rather, he believes that he’ll discuss his vision with Brown and see if the two men can come to an understanding. The odds seem against that happening.

“We planned to talk more about the future after the season was over and that’s what’s next,” Lewis said. “I think we all know when you get in this business, there is going to be an end at some point and time. It doesn’t have to be negative.”

There it is right there. The words used are not coaching staff changes, they read "structural changes in the organization"... We all know that nepotism rules the Brown Family house, so such changes mean a departure from hiring the sons, daughters, husbands, in-laws, and political allies. It means changing that. If that is what held up a deal, maybe Marvin is letting the string play out and then standing firm on his points, thus prompting either a change or his own unemployment.

What is clear is that the "Brown" family values may make for pretty Christmas cards but make for sub-500 football, no matter the players, or the coach. It simply does not work.

So, this spells the end of the Lewis era to me. I don't seriously think SoP will consider an overhaul to the family place of business any more than I would expect Marvin to subject himself to another year of the T.Ocho sideshow.

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Damn, Marvin flat-out doesn't give a f**k. After this crap season, to still be holding the line on various changes have to be made or I'm out of here, takes sizeable gonads.

Guys will generally sell their souls to be a head coach in the NFL. Mike Brown should listen when a guy steps up and says I'll sacrifice it because your organization is too messed up for me to bother with anymore.

Mike Brown, wake up.

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http://cincinnati.com/blogs/bengals/2010/12/29/new-week-same-focus-for-palmer/Carson's comments about Marvin's future per Reedy's blog.

“No. No, I mean, there’s definitely a lot of talk about, ‘Is it his last game?’ But we’re playing for ourselves, and guys are playing for jobs,” Palmer said. “We’ve got a lot of free agents, so guys are playing for jobs next year, and Marvin is coaching his butt off to find out what happens to him at the end of the year.

“I have no idea what’s going to happen. All you can really focus on is the next game, and for us, that’s Baltimore, and we’re worried about that. And whatever happens at the end of the year happens.”

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Per Lap's comments this evening, one of the major sticking points is an on-site practice bubble or indoor practice facility which we have heard before. I wonder what contingencies are in place with the county regarding new construction or changes on the stadium grounds. In fairness to Mike, I can't see asking or expecting the county would be willing to foot the bill for a bubble. So that means it's on Mike and the Bengals and I can't see them ponying up the money for such a facility. The field at UC is listed at approximately $11.3M last year. http://www.newsrecor...ility-1.2085546

Lap was non-committal on what he expected to occur but said that Mike and Marvin seem to have a very close relationship. Marvin (and Mike) might feel like Marvin has done all he could in eight seasons winning two division titles and raising the profile of the team and both will agree to part ways amicably. However, he said that maybe Mike is concerned with dwindling attendance and might try to bring in a new coach to spark some interest and "fire" Marvin. However, "firing" Marvin over concessions might make it difficult during negotiations with potential coaching candidates. Basically if you wouldn't do it for Marvin, why should I expect that you would do the same for me?

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Lap was non-committal on what he expected to occur but said that Mike and Marvin seem to have a very close relationship. Marvin (and Mike) might feel like Marvin has done all he could in eight seasons winning two division titles and raising the profile of the team and both will agree to part ways amicably.

If I had to bet on next Tuesday's outcome, it would be on something like this. But IMHO what happens to Marvin is the sideshow; the real question is what, if anything, happens with the rest of the coaching staff. I would much rather see Marvin stay and and a thorough coaching housecleaning occur than a scenario in which Lewis is the only notable departure.

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In fairness to Mike, I can't see asking or expecting the county would be willing to foot the bill for a bubble. So that means it's on Mike and the Bengals and I can't see them ponying up the money for such a facility. The field at UC is listed at approximately $11.3M last year.

Here we have classic Mike Brown. How much money did they blow on Antonio Bryant, for instance? And let us not even speak of the massive rack that's filling out that #71 jersey.

However, "firing" Marvin over concessions might make it difficult during negotiations with potential coaching candidates. Basically if you wouldn't do it for Marvin, why should I expect that you would do the same for me?

I think that ranks among many, many other things that would drive away any qualified coach. Mike's cheapness (aside from player salaries) is already legendary, as is the dysfunctional nepotism and lack of organizational support. And Hard Knocks certainly gave us a peek behind the curtain; I can't imagine any sane coach wanting a piece of that.

Make no mistake, our next coach will be someone who has no offer elsewhere (including, potentially, Marvin). I could even see a 'hot' assistant remaining as a coordinator for one more year vs. taking the Bengals job.

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Herm Edward and Doug Gottlieb were discussing the Bengals situation this morning on Mike and Mike and Herm said that the trump card for the team is that it is one of only 32 jobs like that in the league. If you take the job you hope that you are able to make the best of it and perhaps change things once you get on board.

He also mentioned that he learned you have to get assistants that think like you do and have your same basic philosophy. But because of contracts, etc. you aren't always able to get the guys that you want. An example of that was when Marvin was hired and he wanted Emmitt Thomas as DC, who was not able to get out of his contract with Atlanta. So he hired Les Frazier instead which lasted two seasons, which then became Chuckie Cheese who became Mike Zimmer. Meanwhile Brat has preceded Marvin and may be here after Marvin. I don't know how Marvin really feels about Brat and if he is forced to keep him or if he really believes in what he is trying to do offensively.

I also think part of the underlying discussion will be organizational philosophy. Are we a running team? Are we a passing team? We seem to vacillate between the two. In 2004 Rudi Johnson set the team rushing record (1400 yds) and had over 350 carries. Two years later, Carson set the team passing record with over 4000 yards passing. Last year we were more run oriented and this year we may have gone overboard trying to throw the ball to keep all of the campers happy. Traditionally this team seems to like the big QB and the passing game. Could it be that Mike is not content with a $12M QB that hands off all the time and is the one that is insisting they throw more? After all passing plays make for exciting football and that puts butts in the seats. That's something that his father was instrumental in developing in Cleveland and later in Cincinnati. But I think Mike may have taken that too far. Personally I find the Steelers and Ravens very boring to watch but they are consistent winners and in the end it is what is most important. Maybe it's time to rethink the mission.

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Please do not resign Marvin. Marvin has no game management, cannot control his players and fails to identify talent or get the most out of his players. Even if we forget about Simpson, look at players like Ahmad Brooks or Matt Toeaiana. The guys were drafted here, never amounted to much and were lost to either being cut or being snatched from the practice squad. A good coach can identify talent or potential and coach that player up enough to get something out of them.

There was an article on Espn today regarding diamonds in the rough or players who were not drafted but turned out to be good players. I believe that there was one or two players from the bengals. Most teams had 4 or 5, and some like the patriots had 10-12. My point is, even if Mike Brown is ruining the drafts, Marvin isnt doing much to get the most out of his players while they are here.

Goodbye Marvin. Give me Zimmer, at least I wont have to listen to a stupid nervous laugh and smart ass comments during the post game.

I agree totally about getting rid of smart ass Marvin and his way of trying to make us fans look like we know nothing about football, but i don't want Zimmer. I don't want any promoting from within and keeping half the assistants doesn't work! Who knows what's going on in Mike Brown's thick skull. Here's what the football genuis will do, rehire Marvin and fire Paul Alexander and the LB coach, my prediction. Since they are so secretive and protective of THEIR football team why don't Mike coach and make Katie the quarterback.

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Awwww it's looking like 49ers main focus is jim Harbaugh....><

I think Harbaugh is going to end up in Michigan.

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Awwww it's looking like 49ers main focus is jim Harbaugh....><

I think Harbaugh is going to end up in Michigan.

Supposedly he doesn't get along with the current Michigan AD and has told people he won't go there. At least that was part of the rumor here in WV that included the WVU AD Oliver Luck (Andrew's dad) discussing the WVU job with Harbaugh.

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But IMHO what happens to Marvin is the sideshow; the real question is what, if anything, happens with the rest of the coaching staff. I would much rather see Marvin stay and and a thorough coaching housecleaning occur than a scenario in which Lewis is the only notable departure.

Make me the boss and the housecleaning would be complete on the offensive side of the ball, and tightly controlled on the defensive side.

Or if you prefer, I'd start with a shotgun and finish with a knife.

Despite this seasons near collapse I'm satisfied with defensive coaches like Mike Zimmer, Fitzgerald, and Coyle. I can even make a case for Simmons sticking despite this seasons fall in special teams play. Nutshelled, each of these coaches have proven they can develope players and schemes if given the players they want. I'd make sure that happens more often.

But on offense I find myself asking the same question I repeatedly asked before this season started, and for once I'll leave the Smashball angle out of the discussion. Point blank, is Bob Bratkowski the right person to oversee the rebuilding of the Bengals passing game? Is this the guy you want selecting the pieces? Is this the guy you want developing the schemes those young players will be asked to learn? What was the point of rebuilding the passing game around aging wideouts?

And things don't get better when you move lower on the offensive coaching tree. Despite his elite rookie pedigree Jermaine Gresham has been underwhelming in this offense, and fellow newbie Chase Coffman has been an unqualified bust. Young wideouts have been left to struggle or rot. Drafting replacements for replacements has become an all too familiar theme. Dynamic playmakers like Bernard Scott go begging for playing time. Nobody developes.

Just saying. Again.

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Point blank, is Bob Bratkowski the right person to oversee the rebuilding of the Bengals passing game?

After the last two weeks I'm not sure exactly how much it needs to be rebuilt. One of the interesting things that popped out at me after last week's win was that the percentage of passes being targeted at the Nos. 1 and 2 wideouts hadn't changed much now that those guys were named Simpson and Caldwell. What had changed was the results of those throws: the two new guys were catching about 80% of balls thrown to them, versus about 50% for the previous occupants of the spots. In other words, the passing game was suddenly working not because the plan had changed, but rather because the execution by the top two targets had improved dramatically.

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Point blank, is Bob Bratkowski the right person to oversee the rebuilding of the Bengals passing game?

After the last two weeks I'm not sure exactly how much it needs to be rebuilt.

Please forgive my lack of suprise concerning your willingness to ignore the first 13 weeks of the season. Nor am I shocked to read yet another weak defense of the beast that Bob has built.

One of the interesting things that popped out at me after last week's win was that the percentage of passes being targeted at the Nos. 1 and 2 wideouts hadn't changed much now that those guys were named Simpson and Caldwell.

So remind me again why prior to the season you declared both players to be junk that simply had to be replaced at all costs? Or why you consistently mocked the idea of Simpson making the roster at all?

What had changed was the results of those throws: the two new guys were catching about 80% of balls thrown to them, versus about 50% for the previous occupants of the spots.

You're starting to scare me now. Where's the fawning defense of all things Ocho that I've grown accustomed to? Regardless, it's not just the percentage of dropped passes that stands out. It's the dramatically reduced/eliminated rate of interceptions.

In other words, the passing game was suddenly working not because the plan had changed, but rather because the execution by the top two targets had improved dramatically.

Absolutely. So can I assume your newly discovered insight means you won't argue in favor of this team exercising the option on Chad's contract?

Regardless of whether or not Chad can still play when he wants to, hasn't the time finally come for all of us to agree about the teams desperate NEED to move on?

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Marvin back to the Ravens?

http://www.baltimore...,7238790.column

Cincinnati coach Marvin Lewis said he won't meet with ownership until after the season to determine his future, but if the Bengals don't re-sign Lewis and he doesn't get another head coaching job, the Ravens should add him to their staff.

Lewis is still highly regarded by Baltimore owner Steve Bisciotti and general manager Ozzie Newsome. He still maintains strong ties to the Baltimore community and visits the city often.

But more importantly, Lewis is one of the NFL's best defensive minds even though the Bengals always seemed to struggle defensively during his eight years in Cincinnati. Those problems, though, can be traced more to owner Mike Brown than Lewis because Brown has always been a strong believer that offense puts fans in the stands.

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I am guessing ML won't be back. But as much as I am tired of him, I could live with him back as long as Brat, at a minimum, is gone. Bottom line, Brat must go.

I think Chad is finally gone. Thank god. Owens won't be back. Fine.

Carson? Back. And I am okay with that as long as Brat is gone.

As for my outlook as a Bengals fan, it's amazing how much more I care about this team now that Chad is out and Owens gone. Hair, I had not realized how much I loathed this crew, but getting them off the field has helped a ton. So much so that I am actually going to wander down to M & T stadium and watch the team live on Sunday, something that I never would have thought of doing even three weeks ago. Simply put, the chance to root on Simpson/Shipley/Caldwell/Dunlap/Atkins is appealing to me in a way that rooting on Chad/Terrell/Odom et al was not.

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Point blank, is Bob Bratkowski the right person to oversee the rebuilding of the Bengals passing game?

After the last two weeks I'm not sure exactly how much it needs to be rebuilt. One of the interesting things that popped out at me after last week's win was that the percentage of passes being targeted at the Nos. 1 and 2 wideouts hadn't changed much now that those guys were named Simpson and Caldwell. What had changed was the results of those throws: the two new guys were catching about 80% of balls thrown to them, versus about 50% for the previous occupants of the spots. In other words, the passing game was suddenly working not because the plan had changed, but rather because the execution by the top two targets had improved dramatically.

This is the thought process that I've been talking about. The Bengals will also see this as improvement and there is no need for change or rebuilding as you put it. Dude, it was one game. You would think after 14 games this season that Palmer would finally come to play! The fact of the matter is if there are little to no changes this off season, we'll see the same type of results next season. Chad and TO had nothing to do with all the delay of games, wasted time outs for not snapping the ball in time, clock management, adjustments to other teams schemes, throwing into tripple coverage, etc. And no it's not all Palmers fault, but he is the commander on the field and he does get paid then all of us put together to win football games!

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