What to do for 2017 and beyond!

[TJJackson]

1 hour ago, HoosierCat said:

Absolutely. I'll get the silkscreen shop on it asap.

Is that the one where Nugent works?

[ArmyBengal]

8 hours ago, cincyhokie said:

One of three things HAS to happen, IMO, if this team has any semblance of a chance for next year.

It starts on the O Line.  I don't care who they draft in April or retain in FA, if they don't significantly get more production out of the offensive line, then nothing matters.

1.  Alexander has to go.  Unlikely.

2.  Bodine has to be replaced as the starting center.  

3.  RT has to be upgraded and the guard play has to be upgraded.  RT and guard in the draft or FA.

If this line comes back looking the same, forget 2017.  And I will be more than comfortable picking them to do jack shit in the upcoming season as early as post draft if this team hasn't gotten their head out of their ass on the offensive line front.

I certainly agree with the thought of needing more from the o-line, but here's where I am.  100% serious.

LT- Whitworth
LG- Boling
C- Bodine
RG- Westerman (Zeitler is allowed to walk away)
RT Fisher

Call me completely uninspired with that lineup.  They would need to get large improvement from Fisher (possible).
They would also need their 5th round, 2nd year guy in Westerman to play at least at Zeitler's level to replicate last season (not unlikely).
Then there's Bodine, who the coaches love.  Regardless of the majority of us seeing the warts, they love him so he stays.

While I could be wrong in that Westerman may surprise and Fisher may improve greatly with RT reps from jump, I'm greatly skeptical.

[AMPHAR]

11 hours ago, HoosierCat said:

Absolutely. I'll get the silkscreen shop on it asap.

WE ARE ALL READY!  - on the front

AND THIS TIME WE MEAN IT!  - on the back

[AMPHAR]

1 hour ago, ArmyBengal said:

I certainly agree with the thought of needing more from the o-line, but here's where I am.  100% serious.

LT- Whitworth
LG- Boling
C- Bodine
RG- Westerman (Zeitler is allowed to walk away)
RT Fisher

Call me completely uninspired with that lineup.  They would need to get large improvement from Fisher (possible).
They would also need their 5th round, 2nd year guy in Westerman to play at least at Zeitler's level to replicate last season (not unlikely).
Then there's Bodine, who the coaches love.  Regardless of the majority of us seeing the warts, they love him so he stays.

While I could be wrong in that Westerman may surprise and Fisher may improve greatly with RT reps from jump, I'm greatly skeptical.

My o-line musings:

First -  Back to the Future.   Gresham and Andre Smith.  You know them.  They've blocked well in your system.   The parts replacing them have performed at a lower level in blocking.     Bengals must entertain cheap insurance policies on edge blocking before anything else.   Their young TEs don't block so good and their young Tackles are definitely the biggest question mark heading into the season.

If Bengal fans can't get over the names of Gresh and Moobs.   Fine.   Basically you need to find a blocking TE and a better vet RT option over Winston. 

Second - Because you have to do this since Fisher and Oooogie Boogie are completely unknowns as starters.   You must soften your cap and pay Z and Whit.

Bodine is a whipping boy and often for good reason.  He improved this past year it's gone unnoticed.   You must make sure that Bodine remains the whipping boy even if he's average.

Boling has to heal which is more argument for bringing Whit back.   IF oooogie boogie improves drastically then you can entertain Whit at LG, Boling at C

Basically the Bengals are going to have to risk some CAP Dollars and overstock the O-line.       This could change if a Franchise Tackle becomes apparent in the draft but it better be a Willie Anderson or Ogden type tackle.

 

[AMPHAR]

Basically if you are building through the draft and that plan hits a rough  patch you have to be willing to patch that gap with FA dollars.   They kinda did this in 2008 after losing so many picks to injury and arrests. 

It often goes unnoticed but the catalyst for 6 playoff season in 8 years was jumped started by more reliance on players they did draft to get it started.  That was necessary because they lost so many players to injury/arrests.

 

[HoosierCat]

Given the state of linemen in the draft, the idea of bringing back Moobs does hold some appeal. Coming off surgery he shouldn't be expensive. Question is whether he would want to come back here.

[COB]

4 minutes ago, HoosierCat said:

Given the state of linemen in the draft, the idea of bringing back Moobs does hold some appeal. Coming off surgery he shouldn't be expensive. Question is whether he would want to come back here.

He doesn't know what he wants.  I never could figure that dude out.  Very appealing prospect - bringing him back.  He's basically not all there in the head sometimes, but not in a destructive or negative way.  Watch Fisher and Obueghi get their asses in gear and improve once they sign Smith.  It would be a win in several different way.  

PS - this is another example of a FA not playing as well in his 2nd home as he did in the program that drafted, trained, and raised him into an NFL player.  Mike did this with Michael Johnson as well.  Let someone else overpay for deal number two on a guy, then swoop back in and pick him up when he's exposed to be, as almost all players are, a product of the system he's in.

 

 

[AMPHAR]

Andre Smith's play decline after signing his last deal with Cincinnati.  He was never the turnstile we saw this year.   Health and motivation would be my biggest questions with him but I think he could lock that spot down better than Winston.

Fisher and Ooogie Boogie have shown 0 reasons they should be given anything and IF they can beat a vet out then that's probably the best thing for them.

[HoosierCat]

1 hour ago, COB said:

He doesn't know what he wants.  I never could figure that dude out.  Very appealing prospect - bringing him back.  He's basically not all there in the head sometimes, but not in a destructive or negative way.  

I've always wondered if it doesn't go back to combine and then his rookie holdout. At the combine you have the shirtless run that inspired my nickname for him. Then, like every other rookie before the new CBA, he got into a standoff with the FO and missed part of camp. The Bengals were on Hard Knocks that year and I remember that segment with the team laughing at the "workout video" he sent to show he was still getting ready even though he wasn't in camp. Bottom line, it's hard to imagine that he felt very respected or appreciated (and I'm not saying he deserved either thing). Then came the string of early career injuries, and then his first foray into FA when he drew basically no interest and had to come back to Cincy, and when he finally leaves all he gets is a one-year deal and promptly gets hurt. It's just been a weird career, so I guess I'm not surprised it's produced a kind of weird guy. 

[COB]

2 hours ago, HoosierCat said:

I've always wondered if it doesn't go back to combine and then his rookie holdout. 

I'll never forget Alvin Keels taking a limo from his hotel to PBS to meet with Katie and hammer out the deal.  

[AMPHAR]

2 minutes ago, COB said:

I'll never forget Alvin Keels taking a limo from his hotel to PBS to meet with Katie and hammer out the deal.  

Oh, he was hammering out more than a deal, I bet.     Before the street car Cincinnatians took Limo's everywhere.     

[Stripes]

I wonder how many offensive line coaches out there would survive the outright busting of consecutive first and second round picks on the line.

[AMPHAR]

32 minutes ago, Stripes said:

I wonder how many offensive line coaches out there would survive the outright busting of consecutive first and second round picks on the line.

Doesn't matter.   Bengals march to their own tune.   How many coaches survive 0-7 in the playoffs? 

The Bengals blend the line between Talent Evaluation/Performance.    

Many good things have happened under Marvin.   A clear weakness there is a level of comfort throughout the organization.

That comfort level exists because they are dependent on these functions to get performed.   Two, it takes more time to prove out the source of the error.   Three, an individual that has given opinions on potential talent is automatically going to protect that opinion when evaluating performance.

Then where do draw the line in an environment of comfort?  What becomes acceptable and what doesn't? 

They've had fights in the locker at halftime in playoff games.   Did you fire a RB coach or player when they fumble away a playoff game?   Fire coach/player when penalties cost them games?   Do you fire players when contracts pay them greater than their current ability?

So it would be hard to find plentiful examples of first and 2nd round o-line picks.  Even more confusing try to judge them as busts.  Then it's the BENGALS.

I will say this.  One of the best o-line coaches had Remington, Blados, and Childress bust BIG time and that's 2 1st and 1 2nd from different drafts.   So there is also a level of inherent risk.

 

If you fire Alexander for the bust of Ooogie and Fisher, fine.  It's justified IMO.   Why aren't firing the guy that told you Nugent could come out of his funk? 

They blend talent evaluation with performance evaluation.   It's human nature to still see the potential and talent vs. the performance.

 

 

 

[HoosierCat]

33 minutes ago, Stripes said:

I wonder how many offensive line coaches out there would survive the outright busting of consecutive first and second round picks on the line.

Not many, I'm sure. But accountability has long been a punchline in Cincy.

And it isn't just those two. Last time around they took Westerman and he couldn't even get on the field for a preseason-in-January game against Baltimore. in 2015 it was Ced (bust) and Fisher (maybe salvageable). In 2014 it was Bodine, whose improvement this year can largely be chalked up to them asking him to do less. In 2013 it was Hawkinson, Fragel and TJ Johnson, and only the latter has panned out as a career backup. So basically out of the last four drafts they've drafted OL seven times (a 1st, a 2nd, a 4th, two 5ths, two 7ths) and Alexander has developed precisely one (1) sub-par starter (Bodine).

[COB]

31 minutes ago, HoosierCat said:

So basically out of the last four drafts they've drafted OL seven times (a 1st, a 2nd, a 4th, two 5ths, two 7ths) and Alexander has developed precisely one (1) sub-par starter (Bodine).

Perhaps you need to read Paul Alexander's book.  He is an adult piano student at the University of Cincinnati’s College Conservatory of Music.  He's a special person who rejects the conventional, thinks outside the box, innovates when others imitate, and just generally is a lot smarter than you are, motherfucker.  

Paul's book isn't just another self help load of crapola.  It will introduce you to a level of consciousness you didn't know existed, it is an inspiring glimpse into the infinite reservoir of human potential that exists in each of us.  Paul's book, "Perform: A Journey for Athletes, Musicians, Coaches, and Teachers" will teach you how to think like a smart person, and is available on Amazon.  

 

 

[ArmyBengal]

I f*cking hate this team.  That is all.

[volcom69]

Still here, and still saying how the hell is nobody let go after this horrible season! 

No coaches fired? How is nobody on the offensive side of the ball not gone! Not even a damn water boy!

Must be nice knowing you can suck for so long but go to bed knowing your job is safe! Hell I think Zampesse and Alexander have been here for like 20 years now, what do they have to worry about.

Man this team pisses me off, so I guess more of the same boring shit next year! 

[HoosierCat]

Ken Zampese:

Quote

That’s our challenge. To find out what the new cheese is.

I'd say "find out what the new cheese is" is a strong t-shirt slogan contender.

[AMPHAR]

 

PFF O-line ranking for 2016.   I would have thought much lower like in the 20s but I don't follow their rankings very much and do read the weekly individual best/worst performance.

I do believe Bodine improved this past year.  I am surprised PFF give credit to him describing it as "notably"  it seemed most in season write up were harsh or begrudgingly giving credit. 

Boling got beat badly a couple times in pass pro and maybe that's sticks out in my mind.  I am little shocked they think he had a better year pass blocking. 

It seems they were quiet on Whit all year. 

Zeitler not a shock.  I thought he got off to a slow start but some of that can certainly be contributed to the black hole at RT.

Right Tackle - Ooogie.   Not a shock he was horrible from the get go.  9 sacks seems kinda low.  40 pressures, yikes.  No where to go but up, I guess.

 

13. Cincinnati Bengals (4)

Top overall grade: LT Andrew Whitworth, 91.3 (No. 2)

Top pass-blocking grade: LT Andrew Whitworth, 92.5 (No. 2)

Top run-blocking grade: RG Kevin Zeitler, 83.1 (No. 9)

This team looked to have a couple of major holes on paper heading into the season, and while Russell Bodine improved notably at center—at least as a run blocker—RT remained a problem all year, and ultimately resulted in the Bengals sitting Cedric Ogbuehi after he was at fault for nine sacks and 40 total QB pressures in 11 games. Andrew Whitworth remains one of the most consistently-excellent linemen in the game, and allowed only 15 total pressures across 637 snaps of pass protection, even if four of those 15 were sacks. Meanwhile, RG Kevin Zeitler made the PFF All-Pro second team after another fine season. LG Clint Boling has had better years for the Bengals when it comes to run blocking, and will be disappointed in that area, but his pass protection was better than a season ago, surrendering 14 fewer pressures than in 2015.

 

[HoosierCat]

19 minutes ago, AMPHAR said:

PFF O-line ranking for 2016.   I would have thought much lower like in the 20s but I don't follow their rankings very much and do read the weekly individual best/worst performance.

At least in the case of the Bengals oline, I think PFF's individual grades mask a mediocre-to-poor overall unit. No line whose QB goes down 41 times should be ranked as high as 13.

[AMPHAR]

1 hour ago, HoosierCat said:

At least in the case of the Bengals oline, I think PFF's individual grades mask a mediocre-to-poor overall unit. No line whose QB goes down 41 times should be ranked as high as 13.

I would agree it's out of place.    Unless they put some sacks on Dalton and TE/RBs.    I would say the RB and TEs contributed but lost in the 41 sack number there seemed to be a ton of pressure that would only appear on the stat sheet as an incompletion or quick completion. 

Reading the individual grades for the Bengals throughout the year,  I would have thought low 20s.   They appeared more critical than positive. 

[HoosierCat]

Enquirer guys give their take on what the team should do personnel-wise:

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/nfl/bengals/2017/01/12/analysis-personnel-moves-bengals-should-make/96490430/

It's pretty dead on IMHO. So you can probably use it as a checklist of things they won't do...

[COB]

5 hours ago, AMPHAR said:

 

PFF O-line ranking for 2016.   I would have thought much lower like in the 20s but I don't follow their rankings very much and do read the weekly individual best/worst performance.

I do believe Bodine improved this past year.  I am surprised PFF give credit to him describing it as "notably"  it seemed most in season write up were harsh or begrudgingly giving credit. 

Boling got beat badly a couple times in pass pro and maybe that's sticks out in my mind.  I am little shocked they think he had a better year pass blocking. 

It seems they were quiet on Whit all year. 

Zeitler not a shock.  I thought he got off to a slow start but some of that can certainly be contributed to the black hole at RT.

Right Tackle - Ooogie.   Not a shock he was horrible from the get go.  9 sacks seems kinda low.  40 pressures, yikes.  No where to go but up, I guess.

 

13. Cincinnati Bengals (4)

Top overall grade: LT Andrew Whitworth, 91.3 (No. 2)

Top pass-blocking grade: LT Andrew Whitworth, 92.5 (No. 2)

Top run-blocking grade: RG Kevin Zeitler, 83.1 (No. 9)

This team looked to have a couple of major holes on paper heading into the season, and while Russell Bodine improved notably at center—at least as a run blocker—RT remained a problem all year, and ultimately resulted in the Bengals sitting Cedric Ogbuehi after he was at fault for nine sacks and 40 total QB pressures in 11 games. Andrew Whitworth remains one of the most consistently-excellent linemen in the game, and allowed only 15 total pressures across 637 snaps of pass protection, even if four of those 15 were sacks. Meanwhile, RG Kevin Zeitler made the PFF All-Pro second team after another fine season. LG Clint Boling has had better years for the Bengals when it comes to run blocking, and will be disappointed in that area, but his pass protection was better than a season ago, surrendering 14 fewer pressures than in 2015.

 

Those grades do not square with what I saw.  I saw a qb who had almost no time, he'd get his first look and that was it.  And run blocking?  I just didn't see much positive.

[cincyhokie]

3 hours ago, HoosierCat said:

Enquirer guys give their take on what the team should do personnel-wise:

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/nfl/bengals/2017/01/12/analysis-personnel-moves-bengals-should-make/96490430/

It's pretty dead on IMHO. So you can probably use it as a checklist of things they won't do...

Very much so.

They CAN make this happen.  They have the cap room and the draft pick currency to do this.  

[AMPHAR]

13 hours ago, COB said:

Those grades do not square with what I saw.  I saw a qb who had almost no time, he'd get his first look and that was it.  And run blocking?  I just didn't see much positive.

I would agree.   However, I rarely pay attention to the other 31 lines.  I typically will watch the up and coming opponent in the All-22.

I've always said PFF probably doesn't get it exact but I doubt they completely miss the mark.   They supposedly evaluate in detail against all other peers in every game.

If you could survey the coaches of the league, it would be interesting how they compared to PFF.    My guess is 13th is the absolute top for the Bengal o-line this past year and I think the bottom could easily be somewhere in the 20s.

 

In the sake of fairness the 13th ranking squares nicely with their actual yardage ranking.  Given they lost a Coordinator, lost 2 WRs, then had multiple games lost by Green, Eifert, and Gio.     We all know Hill wasn't dynamic this past year and seemed to be clearly out played by Rex.   To still be 13th in yards, there probably is some over looked value a long the o-line.   Also 2 of the 5 members will  make most of the top FAs listing of o-line available too.