Andy Dalton Sucks!

[volcom69]

I agree Hoosier, a lot of talent on paper, but that talent is not producing when called upon.

Dalton did struggle yesterday there is no question, but AJ dropping balls again, Gio dropping balls, o-line couldn't pass block or run block, and when they did Gruden stopped running.

I think for me anymore it's just frustrating getting your hopes up for these games, only for the bengals to come out and lay an egg. I'm still wondering about Gruden and I'm really hoping Hue takes over, I really think he is the to light a fire under these guys!

Either way its over what happened happened, and nothing we can do to stop it.

[kingwilly]

You simply can't compare the QB spot with another position either.

How many times does another position have such direct impact on each play ??

Center maybe ??

It's a valid point but that also begs for the scrutiny that more more intense.

If it's the position that has the most direct impact on each play, the expectation must be higher, and the implications of failing that much more dire.

Dalton has been unchallenged since his arrival. I think that must change. Be it a vet FA to push and mentor, and maybe step in when Bad Andy shows up, or a quality rookie to wait in the wings, there has to be something else. This has been the "all eggs in the Andy basket" show for three years, with some progress and success. That I think everyone can agree on.

[ArmyBengal]

Here's where I am to catch up with the thread.

How many other teams have Dalton and are hanging onto hope ??

Not many, because how many other teams have had a QB take them to the playoffs the past three seasons in a row ??

Other teams have strong armed QB's and can't even get to the playoffs, let alone win a game.

I wouldn't mind seeing what Mallett may bring, but no, I wouldn't go all in with him either.

I would prefer a better vet backup that could step in and push if needed as mentioned

Dalton has never had that type of leadership behind him to mentor and it might help.

The expectation must be higher for the QB, yes, but it's simply not so simple to run out and find another even average QB.

How many average QB's do we think there really are in the league right now ??

I simply can't stand people continuing to say that Dalton needs to be more like Manning, Brady, Rodgers, or Brees.

Well hell yeah, who doesn't want your QB to be like one of the best that's EVER played the freaking game ??

Problem is, how often do those types just fall into your lap. Lets run out and get one of those guys.

Dalton is not Manning, Brady, Rodgers, or even Brees, but how many are ??

Roethlisberger has two rings, but isn't all that either. Eli has two. Every QB has ups and downs.

Dalton irritates me to no end and he may not have a long term career here, but lets not confuse him for Ryan Leaf.

That sh*t is just stupid and no amount of frustration puts Dalton in that category.

[kingwilly]

I look at it like this: if another position turned in the relative performance that Dalton did, say a CB. And by that I mean giving up two or three big plays, there would be rightful calls for the guy to get the bench and be replaced, not be given a year 4 to "see" if he can progress. Why are some folks treating this situation so differently?

Which brings up a point related to my comment about the offense's talent level. Say what you will about Andy but he has been working to improve for three years and has made strides. We have seen the same on defense, where guys like Atkins, Maualuga and Taylor Mays have put in the time and effort and reaped results.

But aside from Dalton, who on offense is busting their tail to get better? Green is the exact same player he was his rookie year. Immense physical talents, but still runs poor routes, doesn't always fight for the ball and continues to have communications issues with his QB. Gresham? Well, he's a better blocker but otherwise same guy he's always been, prone to drops, fumbles and penalties. Jones looks to be stepping up, Sanu not so much. Really, the only guy I can point to on the offense who has clearly dedicated himself to becoming a better player is...Moobs.

Maybe it's because so many of the defensive players were cast offs and later round picks. I think I read earlier this year about how Zim had used that as motivation. Gruden needs to take that age from Zim's book.

Maybe it is a Gruden issue? Playcalling yesterday was downright bad. How much was on Andy, how much on Gruden, who knows. But its Gruden's scheme. Dalton plays inside the scheme. Does the scheme fit the talent, again maybe. I certainly think they could do more to exploit Eifert and Gresham. Even the playcalls for Gio were weird, running so many inside runs for nothing.

What I saw was very little check down to outlets, especially under blitz. I saw very few changes, meaning sending a guy in motion or moving before snap, especially when the safeties were up. I mean, there was no outwardly visible adjustments happening. And that is reflected by the SD comments, knowing what the Bengals were doing the whole time. Don't even get me started about giving up the run.

As for Green, I can't judge if he runs sloppy routes. Frankly, I don't see any evidence of it, or others mentioning it. I agree with the fighting for the ball observation. But when you have to come back on almost every ball past 30 yards, or try to jump for a ball 5 yards over your head, I'm not that eager to load him up. I do think he has trouble holding on to passes from time to time, and that's on him for sure.

[ArmyBengal]

Green having to come back for a ball is nothing unique for this team alone.

Many teams have QB's that simply throw balls up for grabs in the hopes their guy either comes down with it or draws a flag.

We don't test that theory enough. Green is a playmaker and they don't go to him enough to give him a shot.

Green has acknowledged his issues and while I love him as a player, he had his concerns this season and played into more than a handful of INT's.

That being said, they need to extend him because I don't want to see this team move on from Dalton without Green locked up.

Give the new guy WR like Green to throw to if Dalton fails and they move on.

[Sea Ray]

Dalton is not Manning, Brady, Rodgers, or even Brees, but how many are ??

Roethlisberger has two rings, but isn't all that either. Eli has two. Every QB has ups and downs.

Dalton irritates me to no end and he may not have a long term career here, but lets not confuse him for Ryan Leaf.

That sh*t is just stupid and no amount of frustration puts Dalton in that category.

I understand where you're coming from but I'll also add a comment on what you wrote above. Sure Dalton isn't those QBs but is he equal to or better than any of the QBs who made the post season this year? Arguably, the answer's no and that's a problem

[kingwilly]

Ok I'll bite.

Here's where I am to catch up with the thread.

How many other teams have Dalton and are hanging onto hope ??

Not many, because how many other teams have had a QB take them to the playoffs the past three seasons in a row ??

Other teams have strong armed QB's and can't even get to the playoffs, let alone win a game.

I think the best comparison is Kaepernick and WIlson. Kaepernick didn't start as a rookie, like Dalton, but has gotten to, and won, playoffs games both years starting and losing in the SB last year.

Wilson won the job and then quickly established himself. Also, playoff bound, maybe SB bound.

I cite those as they have talent levels similar to the Bengals, and are winning because of their QB play, not in spite of it, or losing because of it.

The other teams with strong armed QBs, like Stafford, Newton, or maybe Tanehill don't have the talent or teams like Cincy, SF or Seattle. Carolina does this year but is still on the way up.

I wouldn't mind seeing what Mallett may bring, but no, I wouldn't go all in with him either.

I would prefer a better vet backup that could step in and push if needed as mentioned

Dalton has never had that type of leadership behind him to mentor and it might help.

I agree and think the "all in" attitude sets up for failure. Whether its Dalton, Mallett or whoever.

I would also prefer a veteran to push Dalton, and maybe mentor him along. If Dalton really struggles, at least there is a legit plan B. I agree it could help.

The expectation must be higher for the QB, yes, but it's simply not so simple to run out and find another even average QB.

How many average QB's do we think there really are in the league right now ??

I simply can't stand people continuing to say that Dalton needs to be more like Manning, Brady, Rodgers, or Brees.

Well hell yeah, who doesn't want your QB to be like one of the best that's EVER played the freaking game ??

Problem is, how often do those types just fall into your lap. Lets run out and get one of those guys.

I for one think there are some options coming up. Vick will be available.

I don't really hear anyone saying Dalton eeds to be more like Manning or Brady. I think most folks just want him to be "Good Andy" and not make the rookie style mistakes. Point is, just be the best Andy he can be, cause we all know he's not Brady or Manning (either one).

I think some of the sting is seeing a guy taken just a few spots later being simply dominant yesterday for SF. Would Kaepernick have taken the bengals to the playoffs year 1? maybe not. Andy was projected as the most "Pro" ready guy. But ceiling is crucially important, as we all now know very well.

Dalton is not Manning, Brady, Rodgers, or even Brees, but how many are ??

Roethlisberger has two rings, but isn't all that either. Eli has two. Every QB has ups and downs.

Dalton irritates me to no end and he may not have a long term career here, but lets not confuse him for Ryan Leaf.

That sh*t is just stupid and no amount of frustration puts Dalton in that category.

I can't honestly say anyone is simply saying he is like Ryan Leaf. I think there is quite a lot of level headed thinking about Dalton. I think a central issue is he does not do any one thing really well. One writer tagged him as the demarcation line between good and bad, implying he is the eternally average guy. I tend to agree, and think on one of the bad teams (a low talent place like Jax, STL, NYJ, BUF) Dalton would be starting a year or two and then be out of the league.

[ArmyBengal]

I don't know Sea.

Kaepernick went 16 of 30 with one TD and one INT.

Alex Smith ??

Foles is about on par.

It's certainly a topic that's not so clear cut as it may appear.

After those above you are left with Manning, Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Rivers, Newton, Wilson, Luck.

While Newton may have some serious athletic ability, why has he gotten absolutely ZERO sh*t about his performances ??

How many times has the great #1 overall pick taken his team to the playoffs ??

I mean isn't he expected to put the team on his shoulders like everyone wants Dalton to do ??

F*CK Cam Newton.

[kingwilly]

Green having to come back for a ball is nothing unique for this team alone.

Many teams have QB's that simply throw balls up for grabs in the hopes their guy either comes down with it or draws a flag.

We don't test that theory enough. Green is a playmaker and they don't go to him enough to give him a shot.

Green has acknowledged his issues and while I love him as a player, he had his concerns this season and played into more than a handful of INT's.

That being said, they need to extend him because I don't want to see this team move on from Dalton without Green locked up.

Give the new guy WR like Green to throw to if Dalton fails and they move on.

This is bologna and not true at all.

Saying other teams QBs underthrow their deep passes is a red herring.

We are talking about Dalton. to Green. MOST deep balls are underthrown (completed or not) or with poor touch (completed or not).

They predominantly target Green. the highest percentage of balls go his way.

Now, when they get to spots and ignore Green, its because they double him up. When Andy tries to go there, he has thrown lots of INTs.

[COB]

I don't know Sea.

Kaepernick went 16 of 30 with one TD and one INT.

Alex Smith ??

Foles is about on par.

It's certainly a topic that's not so clear cut as it may appear.

After those above you are left with Manning, Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Rivers, Newton, Wilson, Luck.

While Newton may have some serious athletic ability, why has he gotten absolutely ZERO sh*t about his performances ??

How many times has the great #1 overall pick taken his team to the playoffs ??

I mean isn't he expected to put the team on his shoulders like everyone wants Dalton to do ??

F*CK Cam Newton.

Is Dalton expected to put his team on his shoulders? No. Just do your job competently. And he hasn't when it counts. Cam Newton? I'd trade Andy for Cam Newton in about one second. Kaepernick? Did you watch that game? What that guy did with his feet was pretty incredible. And his arm is about twice as good as Andy's. The NFL has reworked the rules to make it a quarterback league. Our team, other than QB, is as good as any in the playoffs. QB spot is a killer if you don't have a top flight guy. And moaning, "they don't grow on trees", like I heard Trent Dilfer say this morning, doesn't get you any closer to getting that guy. The Niners and the Seahawks have 2nd round guys and are killing with them. Our guy just didn't turn out to be good enough, so the organization should try again. Dalton is still under contract, so bring in new guy and let the competition begin.

[gregcook68]

I don't know Sea.

Kaepernick went 16 of 30 with one TD and one INT.

Alex Smith ??

Foles is about on par.

It's certainly a topic that's not so clear cut as it may appear.

After those above you are left with Manning, Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Rivers, Newton, Wilson, Luck.

While Newton may have some serious athletic ability, why has he gotten absolutely ZERO sh*t about his performances ??

How many times has the great #1 overall pick taken his team to the playoffs ??

I mean isn't he expected to put the team on his shoulders like everyone wants Dalton to do ??

F*CK Cam Newton.

Is Dalton expected to put his team on his shoulders? No. Just do your job competently. And he hasn't when it counts. Cam Newton? I'd trade Andy for Cam Newton in about one second. Kaepernick? Did you watch that game? What that guy did with his feet was pretty incredible. And his arm is about twice as good as Andy's. The NFL has reworked the rules to make it a quarterback league. Our team, other than QB, is as good as any in the playoffs. QB spot is a killer if you don't have a top flight guy.

I'm just asking a question here so don't bombard me here, IF I use your logic above, how can teams like Baltimore and Tampa Bay, not just make it to, but win the SB with great 'teams' and average QBs?

[kingwilly]

I don't know Sea.

Kaepernick went 16 of 30 with one TD and one INT.

Alex Smith ??

Foles is about on par.

It's certainly a topic that's not so clear cut as it may appear.

After those above you are left with Manning, Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Rivers, Newton, Wilson, Luck.

While Newton may have some serious athletic ability, why has he gotten absolutely ZERO sh*t about his performances ??

How many times has the great #1 overall pick taken his team to the playoffs ??

I mean isn't he expected to put the team on his shoulders like everyone wants Dalton to do ??

F*CK Cam Newton.

Is Dalton expected to put his team on his shoulders? No. Just do your job competently. And he hasn't when it counts. Cam Newton? I'd trade Andy for Cam Newton in about one second. Kaepernick? Did you watch that game? What that guy did with his feet was pretty incredible. And his arm is about twice as good as Andy's. The NFL has reworked the rules to make it a quarterback league. Our team, other than QB, is as good as any in the playoffs. QB spot is a killer if you don't have a top flight guy.

I'm just asking a question here so don't bombard me here, IF I use your logic above, how can teams like Baltimore and Tampa Bay, not just make it to, but win the SB with great 'teams' and average QBs?

QB execution and world class defense.

this team did not have QB execution, and had a depleted (albeit solid) defense.

[cincyhokie]

I doubt we'll see another TB or Baltimore. The game has changed that much.

[gregcook68]

I doubt we'll see another TB or Baltimore. The game has changed that much.

Assuming you are referring to more of a passing offense cincy?

[kingwilly]

Anybody who would like to cling to some notion that an "average" game manager QB is gonna win the SB is wrong. Look at who's left: Rivers, Luck, Manning, Brady, Kaepernick, Brees and Wilson.

Any "game managers" there? No, just stone cold killers.

Anyone rather have Dalton than anyone on the list above?

Anyone believe that Dalton will join that group next year?

Luck came back from down a million points. Brady is playing with UDFA scrubs. Even Rivers has a seriously deficient WR group.

Can Dalton do any of that?

Let's be really honest. Its all window dressing, the 33 TDs, the improvement from 2011 to now. He's not on the level of these guys, and to win the big show you need to be.

[cincyhokie]

Saying that type of basic offense/dominant defense has become almost impossible to go far with considering the evolution of the rules favoring the offense.

Put TB and Baltimore in the playoffs in this time and date and their chances are diminished.

[gregcook68]

Anybody who would like to cling to some notion that an "average" game manager QB is gonna win the SB is wrong. Look at who's left: Rivers, Luck, Manning, Brady, Kaepernick, Brees and Wilson.

Any "game managers" there? No, just stone cold killers.

Anyone rather have Dalton than anyone on the list above?

Anyone believe that Dalton will join that group next year?

Luck came back from down a million points. Brady is playing with UDFA scrubs. Even Rivers has a seriously deficient WR group.

Can Dalton do any of that?

Let's be really honest. Its all window dressing, the 33 TDs, the improvement from 2011 to now. He's not on the level of these guys, and to win the big show you need to be.

Because the game has changed so much like cincy alluded to?

Those type of QBs have been part of SB wins but not since 2002.

[HoosierCat]

As for Green, I can't judge if he runs sloppy routes. Frankly, I don't see any evidence of it, or others mentioning it.

Not sure where you've been, then, it's been a subject of conversation for more than a season. Jay just called Green out for needing to run better routes on Lance's show tonight.

The popular theory is that AJ is half-assing it because he knows Dalton sucks, can't get him the ball, and he plans to bolt for a team with a real QB as soon as he can. I've seen nothing to suggest that's the case, but I don't know.

Me, I think back to Hard Knocks and Gruden's conversation with Harrison about not hitting AJ in practice. It just doesn't seem like they push AJ, or anyone on offense, frankly, very much.

In other things Jay said, he explained that Eifert didn't block well enough to see the field more this season. Because, you know, we drafted him in the first to block...

[gregcook68]

As for Green, I can't judge if he runs sloppy routes. Frankly, I don't see any evidence of it, or others mentioning it.

In other things Jay said, he explained that Eifert didn't block well enough to see the field more this season. Because, you know, we drafted him in the first to block...

Wow! Surely they've seen his college tapes!!

[ArmyBengal]

Green having to come back for a ball is nothing unique for this team alone.

Many teams have QB's that simply throw balls up for grabs in the hopes their guy either comes down with it or draws a flag.

We don't test that theory enough. Green is a playmaker and they don't go to him enough to give him a shot.

Green has acknowledged his issues and while I love him as a player, he had his concerns this season and played into more than a handful of INT's.

That being said, they need to extend him because I don't want to see this team move on from Dalton without Green locked up.

Give the new guy WR like Green to throw to if Dalton fails and they move on.

This is bologna and not true at all.

Saying other teams QBs underthrow their deep passes is a red herring.

We are talking about Dalton. to Green. MOST deep balls are underthrown (completed or not) or with poor touch (completed or not).

They predominantly target Green. the highest percentage of balls go his way.

Now, when they get to spots and ignore Green, its because they double him up. When Andy tries to go there, he has thrown lots of INTs.

It's not true that other teams QB's periodically underthrow the ball making their WR's have to come back for the throw ??

Did you see a single Saints game this season with the beloved Drew Brees ?? Happened all season long with him.

I'm not here arguing about Dalton's accuracy, because I admit that hasn't translated from college to the NFL for him.

I'm saying they don't give it as much of a shot as they should. Targeting him 8 yards downfield hardly counts.

Call it what you like, but Green had 9 targets yesterday behind both Jones and Bernard. Gresham had 8.

The one time they went deep, Green dropped a ball that hit him in the hands. That wasn't a first for him either this season.

[ArmyBengal]

I don't know Sea.

Kaepernick went 16 of 30 with one TD and one INT.

Alex Smith ??

Foles is about on par.

It's certainly a topic that's not so clear cut as it may appear.

After those above you are left with Manning, Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Rivers, Newton, Wilson, Luck.

While Newton may have some serious athletic ability, why has he gotten absolutely ZERO sh*t about his performances ??

How many times has the great #1 overall pick taken his team to the playoffs ??

I mean isn't he expected to put the team on his shoulders like everyone wants Dalton to do ??

F*CK Cam Newton.

Is Dalton expected to put his team on his shoulders? No. Just do your job competently. And he hasn't when it counts. Cam Newton? I'd trade Andy for Cam Newton in about one second. Kaepernick? Did you watch that game? What that guy did with his feet was pretty incredible. And his arm is about twice as good as Andy's. The NFL has reworked the rules to make it a quarterback league. Our team, other than QB, is as good as any in the playoffs. QB spot is a killer if you don't have a top flight guy. And moaning, "they don't grow on trees", like I heard Trent Dilfer say this morning, doesn't get you any closer to getting that guy. The Niners and the Seahawks have 2nd round guys and are killing with them. Our guy just didn't turn out to be good enough, so the organization should try again. Dalton is still under contract, so bring in new guy and let the competition begin.

I didn't ask about trading for Cam Newton, I asked if the almighty #1 pick has had the same success as Dalton.

Follow that with why hasn't he gotten any grief ?? He pouts and wimpers around like a bitch and people don't care that he hasn't shouldered the load.

Kaepernick goes 16 of 30 with a TD and an INT and he's a stone cold killer.

Love what he's capable of doing with his legs, but shut that down and what ??

Can we please stop comparing Dalton to Manning and Brady.

How many QB's have there been as good as those two ?? Ever.

[gregcook68]

I don't know Sea.

Kaepernick went 16 of 30 with one TD and one INT.

Alex Smith ??

Foles is about on par.

It's certainly a topic that's not so clear cut as it may appear.

After those above you are left with Manning, Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Rivers, Newton, Wilson, Luck.

While Newton may have some serious athletic ability, why has he gotten absolutely ZERO sh*t about his performances ??

How many times has the great #1 overall pick taken his team to the playoffs ??

I mean isn't he expected to put the team on his shoulders like everyone wants Dalton to do ??

F*CK Cam Newton.

Is Dalton expected to put his team on his shoulders? No. Just do your job competently. And he hasn't when it counts. Cam Newton? I'd trade Andy for Cam Newton in about one second. Kaepernick? Did you watch that game? What that guy did with his feet was pretty incredible. And his arm is about twice as good as Andy's. The NFL has reworked the rules to make it a quarterback league. Our team, other than QB, is as good as any in the playoffs. QB spot is a killer if you don't have a top flight guy. And moaning, "they don't grow on trees", like I heard Trent Dilfer say this morning, doesn't get you any closer to getting that guy. The Niners and the Seahawks have 2nd round guys and are killing with them. Our guy just didn't turn out to be good enough, so the organization should try again. Dalton is still under contract, so bring in new guy and let the competition begin.

I didn't ask about trading for Cam Newton, I asked if the almighty #1 pick has had the same success as Dalton.

Follow that with why hasn't he gotten any grief ?? He pouts and wimpers around like a bitch and people don't care that he hasn't shouldered the load.

Kaepernick goes 16 of 30 with a TD and an INT and he's a stone cold killer.

Love what he's capable of doing with his legs, but shut that down and what ??

Can we please stop comparing Dalton to Manning and Brady.

How many QB's have there been as good as those two ?? Ever.

Ironically, Brady could very well be sitting with 5 rings, had it not been for a very hot and lucky New York Giants team.

Yes I said lucky. They backed into the playoffs both years as wild card teams, depending on other teams to lose to get there, and got hot at the right time.

Eli Manning is, IMHO, the most inconsistent two-time SB QB ever!!

But I agree, Brady especially. He wins even when he doesn't have the horses. You see what Eli does without the horses!

[bengals39]

I saw Blake Bortles play qb for Central Florida vs. Baylor in the Fiesta Bowl. I thought he looked pretty good, I would trade Dalton and seriously consider trading up to draft Bortles in the 1st round.

Trying to sign Josh McCown is another option.

Regardless, unfortunately I think it is time to move on from Andy Dalton. He's had enough time to show what he can do, and unfortunately I don't think he is the answer going forward.

I think Marvin's time here as the head coach should be up also, he was given 11 years, that's enough time. Hire Zimmer as the head coach and maybe make Marvin the gm if Mike will step aside.

Good article from cleveland.com about Bortles:

/>http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2014/01/cleveland_browns_and_nfl_am_li_239.html

[ArmyBengal]

Again, i'm not saying, nor have I ever said that Dalton is without flaws and that I am 100% comfortable with him.

I have even admitted that he may not be the long term answer for this organization.

All that being said, I get sick of people comparing him to some of the all time greats and wondering why he isn't them.

I also think it's ungodly unfair how a player like Cam Newton goes unscathed despite his lack of anything until this season ??

Other QB's have bad games just as Dalton has, their teams didn't make the playoffs, and yet nothing.

Dalton hasn't done well in the big game and that needs to change, but somehow that equates him to Ryan Leaf ??

Yes, i've seen and heard those comparisons.

[ArmyBengal]

I saw Blake Bortles play qb for Central Florida vs. Baylor in the Fiesta Bowl. I thought he looked pretty good, I would trade Dalton and seriously consider trading up to draft Bortles in the 1st round.

Trying to sign Josh McCown is another option.

Regardless, unfortunately I think it is time to move on from Andy Dalton. He's had enough time to show what he can do, and unfortunately I don't think he is the answer going forward.

I think Marvin's time here as the head coach should be up also, he was given 11 years, that's enough time. Hire Zimmer as the head coach and maybe make Marvin the gm if Mike will step aside.

Good article from cleveland.com about Bortles:

/>http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2014/01/cleveland_browns_and_nfl_am_li_239.html

I merged because it sounds Andy Dalton Suck'ish.

Another example of moving Marvin to GM while Zimmer takes over the head coaching spot despite never hearing a single word of it from the organization.

Welcome to the Zone Bengals39 !!!