Bengals vs Colts pregame thread

[Wraith]

Veteran Superstar QBs can make lemonade out of lemons, currently that would be Rodgers, Manning, Brady and Brees. Young QBs not matter how talented need to have help. The QB position is a dependant position. Lets not forget the weapons Manning had early in his career..Marvin Harrison, Edgerrin James, Dallas Clark and later Wayne.

Luck is still my favorite (though Wilson is 1b) of all the young QBs. He shows intelligence, poise, and work ethic along with incredible athletic ability for a man of his size. We sometimes forget how rare success is for QBs starting out in the NFL, if you look at history no QB in NFL History has led their team to the playoffs in the first three years of his NFL career while throwing for more than 3,000 yards and 20 TDs each season (it is worth noting that Dalton will be the first if the Bengals make the playoffs)

[jjakq27]

Also, on the Bengals Roundtable radio show last evening, Dave Lapham said that Jay Gruden admitted that Tyler Eifert is the most under utilized player on the offense. There was a brief discussion about having too many weapons and the necessity of trying to keep everybody involved in the game and feeling pressure to spread it around. He also said Gruden acknowledged that he instructed Andy to throw the ball up to AJ on that bad pick on Sunday. He thought AJ could just out-jump the double team but it ended up being overthrown and AJ had no chance.

"Too many weapons"? That's a BS excuse. I'm assuming that was a paraphrase of something Lapham said and not anything Gruden may have said.

Target may have been his term.

[HoosierCat]

Also, on the Bengals Roundtable radio show last evening, Dave Lapham said that Jay Gruden admitted that Tyler Eifert is the most under utilized player on the offense. There was a brief discussion about having too many weapons and the necessity of trying to keep everybody involved in the game and feeling pressure to spread it around. He also said Gruden acknowledged that he instructed Andy to throw the ball up to AJ on that bad pick on Sunday. He thought AJ could just out-jump the double team but it ended up being overthrown and AJ had no chance.

"Too many weapons"? That's a BS excuse. I'm assuming that was a paraphrase of something Lapham said and not anything Gruden may have said.

Target may have been his term.

Could be. I saw a tweet from someone earlier today that the Bengals were 4th in the league in passes targeted to TEs. Right now Eifert and Jermaine have 77 catches combined (which is more than AJ by 6 receptions) and there are still four games left. Gresham's high was last season with 64 grabs.

[volcom69]

Will they ever throw a fade to Eifert in the redzone/goal line. I can't believe they don't use Eifert more, that's what he lived on at ND. I don't get Jays thinking sometimes.

[jjakq27]

Will they ever throw a fade to Eifert in the redzone/goal line. I can't believe they don't use Eifert more, that's what he lived on at ND. I don't get Jays thinking sometimes.

That was discussed last night also. They said before the season they expected that he would have four or five redzone Tds at this point but only has one from about 30 yds out. That's where the "too many weapons/targets" comment came up.

[ArmyBengal]

From all accounts, neither Carr nor Harrington brought to table what Luck did.

Them being the best option available, doesn't make them great QB's in my line of thought.

Luck on the other hand was widely considered a Peyton clone that doesn't come along all that often.

It's a biggest reason the Colts were good moving on from Peyton.

That was what I was trying to point out in regards to a team sitting in that position to draft him.

Oh, I understand. My point in return was that the evaluation of Luck might simply be wrong. We can't say yet. I do find it...interesting that so much of what I've read this week on his struggles lately comes down to, "well, he lost Wayne and his oline sucks so that's why he is having problems." But wait -- I thought the Payton Mannings of the world didn't need weapons. Haven't we been told that "real" franchise QBs make the team around them better, and can turn schlubs into stars? And that it is only lesser QBs (like Andy Dalton) who need to be surrounded by talent to succeed? Where does that leave Luck?

Yeah, I get what you are saying as well.

I remember watching a segment on NFL Network prior to the start of the season and the group was asked to pick the top 5 QB's with 2 seasons or less in the league. Of course Dalton was no where to be found. Fast forward to the end of this season and I think that opinion would change.

That being the case, I still think Luck is a really good QB and if asked would I trade Dalton for him straight up, it would be a quick yes.

[gregcook68]

From all accounts, neither Carr nor Harrington brought to table what Luck did.

Them being the best option available, doesn't make them great QB's in my line of thought.

Luck on the other hand was widely considered a Peyton clone that doesn't come along all that often.

It's a biggest reason the Colts were good moving on from Peyton.

That was what I was trying to point out in regards to a team sitting in that position to draft him.

Oh, I understand. My point in return was that the evaluation of Luck might simply be wrong. We can't say yet. I do find it...interesting that so much of what I've read this week on his struggles lately comes down to, "well, he lost Wayne and his oline sucks so that's why he is having problems." But wait -- I thought the Payton Mannings of the world didn't need weapons. Haven't we been told that "real" franchise QBs make the team around them better, and can turn schlubs into stars? And that it is only lesser QBs (like Andy Dalton) who need to be surrounded by talent to succeed? Where does that leave Luck?

Yeah, I get what you are saying as well.

I remember watching a segment on NFL Network prior to the start of the season and the group was asked to pick the top 5 QB's with 2 seasons or less in the league. Of course Dalton was no where to be found. Fast forward to the end of this season and I think that opinion would change.

That being the case, I still think Luck is a really good QB and if asked would I trade Dalton for him straight up, it would be a quick yes.

The jury is still out on whether Harbaugh may have been premature in choosing Kaepernik over Smith.

[ArmyBengal]

I like Kaeperkick as well, but it appears teams have figured him out to a degree.

[HoosierCat]

Reedy:

Joe Reedy ‏@joereedy 1m

I would think the #Bengals line for Sunday from left to right for Sunday would be — Collins, Whitworth, Cook, Pollak, A.Smith :sure:

Joe Reedy ‏@joereedy 2m

#Bengals list Zeitler as ?able. Everyone else — Burfict, Eifert, Green, Harris, Hawkins, A.Jones and Whitworth — are probable

[cincyhokie]

Let's get it on!

[kingwilly]

I don't buy the "too many targets/weapons" excuse.

What I see is Dalton still only doing what Gruden tells him to do. Gruden is not behind center, reading the D and blitz, watching how the coverage moves post-snap, and then making the best throw he can. Dalton seems to simply do whatever Gruden says, those other things be damned. If Jay say toss a sky rocket to AJ, then he'll do it, and maybe not even read the safety depth or rotation. Pair that with an off target throw and you get that INT.

We've all seen him throw clearly ill-advised balls and we all simply scratch our heads saying, what the heck was he thinking or seeing. Maybe it's just that he's not thinking or seeing, and doing exactly what Gruden says to do. This is probably why we see him not even make a progression read and throw to the instructed target, often into double coverage and when others are clearly wide open. Apart from the obvious downsides of this, Dalton does not have an arm/accuracy of a Brees or Rogers or Wilson to help ensure a higher percentage of it working.

So, it seems to me Dalton must be given the keys to drive the offense, and latitude to make the play he sees and reads, rather than the play Gruden wants him to execute. As such, if Dalton cannot effectively run this offense on his own football IQ, then he is not the QB for this team. If they don't trust him, than that's a big problem. If he cannot handle it, also a big problem. Just following the Gruden instructions will never maximize the weapons and potential on the offense.

[gregcook68]

I don't buy the "too many targets/weapons" excuse.

What I see is Dalton still only doing what Gruden tells him to do. Gruden is not behind center, reading the D and blitz, watching how the coverage moves post-snap, and then making the best throw he can. Dalton seems to simply do whatever Gruden says, those other things be damned. If Jay say toss a sky rocket to AJ, then he'll do it, and maybe not even read the safety depth or rotation. Pair that with an off target throw and you get that INT.

We've all seen him throw clearly ill-advised balls and we all simply scratch our heads saying, what the heck was he thinking or seeing. Maybe it's just that he's not thinking or seeing, and doing exactly what Gruden says to do. This is probably why we see him not even make a progression read and throw to the instructed target, often into double coverage and when others are clearly wide open. Apart from the obvious downsides of this, Dalton does not have an arm/accuracy of a Brees or Rogers or Wilson to help ensure a higher percentage of it working.

So, it seems to me Dalton must be given the keys to drive the offense, and latitude to make the play he sees and reads, rather than the play Gruden wants him to execute. As such, if Dalton cannot effectively run this offense on his own football IQ, then he is not the QB for this team. If they don't trust him, than that's a big problem. If he cannot handle it, also a big problem. Just following the Gruden instructions will never maximize the weapons and potential on the offense.

The more I think about this the more I think your spot on King. Dalton is a Christian and so am I and because of that I know that he will submit to authority like we are called to do. And if that's the case then the problem lies within Gruden and he needs to change things up or get somebody else in there. Andy's going to do what he's told regardless unless he's given the option and freedom to change things. It's one thing to change things at the line before the snap but what happens after the snap seems to be the problem.

As far as too many weapons that's an excuse Gruden is using. He says he has to keep everybody happy its not his job to keep people happy this is job to win football games.

Those guys are professional athletes they get paid a salary whether they sit on the bench or score 10 touchdowns in a game. That's why I love the fact that Whit is the offense of Captain because he's a team player those guys need understand that and submit to that.

[HoosierCat]

So, it seems to me Dalton must be given the keys to drive the offense, and latitude to make the play he sees and reads, rather than the play Gruden wants him to execute. As such, if Dalton cannot effectively run this offense on his own football IQ, then he is not the QB for this team. If they don't trust him, than that's a big problem. If he cannot handle it, also a big problem. Just following the Gruden instructions will never maximize the weapons and potential on the offense.

I think you may be reading a bit much into things, willy (and I say that as a guy whose speciality is reading too much into things ). I'm really not sure what Gruden means by "underutilized" in the first place. They installed a new two-TE offensive set this year and I'm sure the 77 passes already caught by Tyler and Jermaine is a franchise record for receptions by Bengals TEs in a single year. When I look at their numbers one other thing pops out: of their combined yardage, 435 comes in the first six games, 299 in the last six.

To me, that suggests a simpler answer: teams have had a chance to look at what the Bengals were doing with their TEs and adjusted accordingly. They are doing a better job of taking away both Eifert and Gresham, and Gruden needs to devise some fresh plans for freeing them up. (I would further posit that this has happened at least in part because none of our WRs have stepped up into the No. 2 spot...again...but that's another kettle of fish.)

I wouldn't totally absolve Dalton here, but remember this whole two-TE thing is a new wrinkle that was just bolted on to the offense this season. I suspect both he and Jay are still trying to work out the kinks.

[gregcook68]

So, it seems to me Dalton must be given the keys to drive the offense, and latitude to make the play he sees and reads, rather than the play Gruden wants him to execute. As such, if Dalton cannot effectively run this offense on his own football IQ, then he is not the QB for this team. If they don't trust him, than that's a big problem. If he cannot handle it, also a big problem. Just following the Gruden instructions will never maximize the weapons and potential on the offense.

I think you may be reading a bit much into things, willy (and I say that as a guy whose speciality is reading too much into things ;)/> ). I'm really not sure what Gruden means by "underutilized" in the first place. They installed a new two-TE offensive set this year and I'm sure the 77 passes already caught by Tyler and Jermaine is a franchise record for receptions by Bengals TEs in a single year. When I look at their numbers one other thing pops out: of their combined yardage, 435 comes in the first six games, 299 in the last six.

To me, that suggests a simpler answer: teams have had a chance to look at what the Bengals were doing with their TEs and adjusted accordingly. They are doing a better job of taking away both Eifert and Gresham, and Gruden needs to devise some fresh plans for freeing them up. (I would further posit that this has happened at least in part because none of our WRs have stepped up into the No. 2 spot...again...but that's another kettle of fish.)

I wouldn't totally absolve Dalton here, but remember this whole two-TE thing is a new wrinkle that was just bolted on to the offense this season. I suspect both he and Jay are still trying to work out the kinks.

Like the positive attitude!

I just think Gruden is wrong being concerned about keeping guys 'happy'! They all have a job to do, and need to understand that it's the coaches job to win football games and utilize whatever is working and whatever the defense is giving them.

[HoosierCat]

Tired of watching Andy Dalton suck? Here, watch Boomer suck! I remember this game...pathetic.

/>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlqBQj38JYo

[kingwilly]

Tired of watching Andy Dalton suck? Here, watch Boomer suck! I remember this game...pathetic.

/>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlqBQj38JYo

Wow, wow, wow. Like a time machine. I recall that game. Amazing. Munoz got smoked the whole game. Sloppy stuff.

[ArmyBengal]

There was an article over on ESPN about AJ Green and him saying that he basically has been cutting off routes and by doing that, it has caused some of the INT's. Call that what you want (him taking blame or whatever) but it does seem to make sense and would certainly give reason to believe things are totally on Dalton with some of those poor looking tosses. Couple those times with others where there was simple miscommunication between the two and all they need to do is clean that up and things will look night and day in regards to the inconsistency.

I also think Gruden has to bear his share of responsibility as well.

Dare I say that I don't care if he were to leave next year ??

[ShulaSteakhouse]

Tired of watching Andy Dalton suck? Here, watch Boomer suck! I remember this game...pathetic.

/>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlqBQj38JYo

Shame on you for even comparing the two, and for posting this.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

There was an article over on ESPN about AJ Green and him saying that he basically has been cutting off routes and by doing that, it has caused some of the INT's. Call that what you want (him taking blame or whatever) but it does seem to make sense and would certainly give reason to believe things are totally on Dalton with some of those poor looking tosses. Couple those times with others where there was simple miscommunication between the two and all they need to do is clean that up and things will look night and day in regards to the inconsistency.

I also think Gruden has to bear his share of responsibility as well.

Dare I say that I don't care if he were to leave next year ??

Yeah and it was Chad's fault when Palmer threw all those INT's too.

Dalton has major flaws, let's get over it and hope he can avoid the turnovers that cost them an AFC Championship.

[volcom69]

I wish Andy would do a little of that running out of the pocket thing, that Boomer used to do. He did it at TCU all the time, now there are times that I wonder if he knows how to move.

I agree Army, I'm begining to wonder a lot about Gruden and this offense. After all these years and games, I'm still not sure what kind of an offense he is running.

All I know is if Andy can cut back on the turnovers, make the right read at the line, and they can get the power running game going, then who knows how far they can go. Big thing, stop turning it over, stop making it harder then it has to be!!!

[HoosierCat]

Shame on you for even comparing the two, and for posting this.

Yeah, you're right. Comparing Andy Dalton to a career sub-.500 QB who quit on the team not once but twice and has spent the last 15+ years crapping on the franchise from the announcers booth is just wrong. Red has way more class than that blonde turd.

[COB]

There is no way, I don't think, Gruden could be telling Dalton to throw to Route A, regardless of coverage.

There is always a secondary route, or routes, to be considered if the first option is covered or otherwise falls apart.

Dalton is what he is. His arm is a bit overmatched in the NFL game. Having said that, he is amazingly resilient. He can have several horrible throws in a row, and he keeps on throwing like the next one will be a Ted, which it sometimes is.

[walzav29]

I wish Andy would do a little of that running out of the pocket thing, that Boomer used to do. He did it at TCU all the time, now there are times that I wonder if he knows how to move.

I agree Army, I'm begining to wonder a lot about Gruden and this offense. After all these years and games, I'm still not sure what kind of an offense he is running.

All I know is if Andy can cut back on the turnovers, make the right read at the line, and they can get the power running game going, then who knows how far they can go. Big thing, stop turning it over, stop making it harder then it has to be!!!

I agree with this. This is the most consistent Bengals team in history. They just need the post-season success. I contend that they finally have the needed pieces to succeed. They have upgraded at LB, RB, and TE and Dalton has the experience now. I think it's looking good. I know it works both ways. But 2 OT's, and Sanu's fumble at CHi's 19 yard line. The've beaten GB and The Pats. Good season so far. Remember they overcame 4 turnovers in a row and had quite a 4th quarter comeback vs GB. The win vs Det was great, and that 90+ yard drive vs NE for the TD was clutch.

[ArmyBengal]

There was an article over on ESPN about AJ Green and him saying that he basically has been cutting off routes and by doing that, it has caused some of the INT's. Call that what you want (him taking blame or whatever) but it does seem to make sense and would certainly give reason to believe things are totally on Dalton with some of those poor looking tosses. Couple those times with others where there was simple miscommunication between the two and all they need to do is clean that up and things will look night and day in regards to the inconsistency.

I also think Gruden has to bear his share of responsibility as well.

Dare I say that I don't care if he were to leave next year ??

Yeah and it was Chad's fault when Palmer threw all those INT's too.

Dalton has major flaws, let's get over it and hope he can avoid the turnovers that cost them an AFC Championship.

1. Not my article, just commenting on it.

2. I comment about Dalton's areas to improve with great consistency.

[Scottishbengal]

This is the most consistent Bengals team in history. They just need the post-season success.

Ok, this is straying off the Indy @ Bengals thread but to keep the convo going ...what IF the Bengals get their first play-off win under Marvin? Will it be a "we got a win, that's enough" or will it be "hell yeah, we CAN do this" and go on a run deep into the play-offs ???