Cleveland @ Cincinnati ... game thread

[Spor_tees]

Did anyone see Jerome Simpson's acting job on Dalton's fumble?

I think he had help, it looked like a stuntman rig coming out of an explosion. He got yanked like 10 yards.

[TJJackson]

Football gods, please do us some kindness yet.

TJ, God has blessed us this season. Seven wins with a rookie QB, and I don't think we're done yet.

True. But I am greedy.

The football gods are not willing to give us more than the win, it seems

Oakland beat Chicago and Denver beat San Diego

We may get to play Carson and the Raiders in the playoffs after all

Last shot for this week - c'mon KC

[volcom69]

So finally Gresham lines up wide, as a wide reciever and catches a TD. I love it, and i hope they continue to do that, and i hope when Lee gets back they use 3 TE sets and let him line up wide.

[bwillycuse]

At what point do the fans of Cincy start showing up to home games?

When the jobs come back. Last numbers I saw it was $401 and change for a family of 4 to go to a Bengals game. (For comparisons' sake, the same number for a Reds game is about $162.) And that's for nosebleed seats.

Mike wants to fill the stadium he could do it in a heartbeat. Take a page from Arthur Blank's book, lop the price of nosebleed seats to $5 or $10, make up the difference on concessions and local ad revenue. But Mike really isn't that good a businessman.

Cleveland's job market it just as bad as Cincinnati's and the never win and are never blacked out and also support an NBA team

The Pitt game was embarrassing eeing over half the stadium with towels waving.

So, the city can't support an NFL team? Just feels like we will lose the Bengals when Mikey is allowed to leave. Hopefully people will get tickets for christmas.

We just don't have a home field advantage and its sad IMO.

[HoosierCat]

At what point do the fans of Cincy start showing up to home games?

When the jobs come back. Last numbers I saw it was $401 and change for a family of 4 to go to a Bengals game. (For comparisons' sake, the same number for a Reds game is about $162.) And that's for nosebleed seats.

Mike wants to fill the stadium he could do it in a heartbeat. Take a page from Arthur Blank's book, lop the price of nosebleed seats to $5 or $10, make up the difference on concessions and local ad revenue. But Mike really isn't that good a businessman.

Cleveland's job market it just as bad as Cincinnati's and the never win and are never blacked out and also support an NBA team

The Pitt game was embarrassing eeing over half the stadium with towels waving.

So, the city can't support an NFL team? Just feels like we will lose the Bengals when Mikey is allowed to leave. Hopefully people will get tickets for christmas.

We just don't have a home field advantage and its sad IMO.

Well, it is cheaper in Cleveland, about $330 for a family of four.

And they had the national media pumping them up all year (free marketing $$$), while the Bengals -- thanks to Carson Palmer -- were supposed to be the worst team in the league. Marvin made reference to that a few weeks ago.

It's tough to sell out when people don't buy tickets early (which is the whole point behind why NFL owners hate the blackout rule) and the Bengals lost all of that this year. Winning will help. Hope will help even more.

[bwillycuse]

At what point do the fans of Cincy start showing up to home games?

When the jobs come back. Last numbers I saw it was $401 and change for a family of 4 to go to a Bengals game. (For comparisons' sake, the same number for a Reds game is about $162.) And that's for nosebleed seats.

Mike wants to fill the stadium he could do it in a heartbeat. Take a page from Arthur Blank's book, lop the price of nosebleed seats to $5 or $10, make up the difference on concessions and local ad revenue. But Mike really isn't that good a businessman.

Cleveland's job market it just as bad as Cincinnati's and the never win and are never blacked out and also support an NBA team

The Pitt game was embarrassing eeing over half the stadium with towels waving.

So, the city can't support an NFL team? Just feels like we will lose the Bengals when Mikey is allowed to leave. Hopefully people will get tickets for christmas.

We just don't have a home field advantage and its sad IMO.

Well, it is cheaper in Cleveland, about $330 for a family of four.

And they had the national media pumping them up all year (free marketing $$$), while the Bengals -- thanks to Carson Palmer -- were supposed to be the worst team in the league. Marvin made reference to that a few weeks ago.

It's tough to sell out when people don't buy tickets early (which is the whole point behind why NFL owners hate the blackout rule) and the Bengals lost all of that this year. Winning will help. Hope will help even more.

A win next week should go a long way to build confidence in the city. I do understand the Palmer effect and rehiring Lewis as well. Ocho also sold a lot of tickets - like it or not.

The future is bright. Lets make these young players want to stay here in Cincy for their next contracts. They go to Pittsburg next week. They will feel what its like to shut their stadium up almost completely when we win. But also feel the deafening noise when its 3rd and short.

Maybe this team will be the start of Cincy again building its fanbase.

[Sea Ray]

The problem with attendance is the number of season ticket holders. With the obligation to pay for a PSL it gives fans pause and this greatly hurts their base. Folks who only want season tickets for this window of winning we're entyering are not going to want to fork over a PSL too, especially since history shows MB will screw it up before long

[HairOnFire]

At what point do the fans of Cincy start showing up to home games?

I can't defend us anymore. We have a winning team and still don't show up. I think its time for the fans to step up. Or else we are going to be known as the Marlins of the NFL.

I know there are at least 60,000 Bengals fans that have $70 available to go to a game.

The excuses are getting old. Can Cincy support an NFL team? Does it want to? - Because I know of many other cities that would fully support a 7-4 football team.

Great win for the Bengals - They should be playing in front of a full house. No matter the weather.

I think it's time we all come to grips with the fact that as a fanbase we collectively suck. And while that may not be true of us as individuals we need to make peace with our collective reputation. IMHO there may not be a worse fanbase in the entire NFL, and the result is there's no home field advantage worth mentioning.

Shifting gears, I was actually more suprised there weren't more Browns fans in attendance. Usually southern Ohio Brownies can be counted upon to take up the slack of poor ticket sales, as Steeler fans always seem to do, but everytime I froze a crowd shot from yesterdays game there weren't many Brownie faces in the frame.

And shifting gears again, I also noted during the pregame show of last weeks Harbaugh Bowl when a talking head noted how long the 49'ers have been down, but still retained enough of a rabid fanbase to maintain a homefield advantage throughout that franchises down period. When that team began winning big this season it found itself playing for a fanbase that happily embraced the change in fortune. Meanwhile, in Cincy, most of the now poisoned fanbase stays home and bitches that the game isn't televised locally.

[HoosierCat]

The Bengals had a seven-plus year streak of home sellouts going until about this time last year, and it's hard to blame anyone for not wanting to spend hundreds of dollars to go sit in the cold and watch last year's train wreck.

As for this year, you may be right about the fanbase being "poisoned," and I would say you can find the poisoner wearing black and silver -- and his gleeful helpers working at places like ESPN and SI. Combine months of relentless chatter about how bad the Bengals were going to be and how hopeless the Cincy cause must be if a guy would walk away from $50 million rather than play there with the worst economy since the Great Depression and it's kind of amazing that they even manage to get 40k or 50k for a game.

Assuming the Bengals finish the season well, maybe even make a playoff appearance, we'll be in for an optimism-fueled offseason that will bring fans back to the stadium.

[HairOnFire]

I would say that about seals it. Even if the O can get some points there's no reason to believe the D can produce any stops.

Bengals will be lucky to get to 8-8.

Once again the first poster to throw in the gameday towel is Hoosier, and this time a page earlier than last week. Not that I blame him much. This game was supposed to be a breather but I found myself holding my breath most of the game. But still.

As for the comments about the Bengals being emotionaly flat and unprepared, I'd say no to the former and yes to the latter. But more to the point, the Bengals defense looked like a squad playing like it didn't want to get hurt.....based upon the remarkable number of attempted tackles aimed at the feet of opposing players, especially Hillis and Watson. In fact, I can't recall a single Brownie who got jacked up during the entire game.

[Wraith]

Add to it the fact that this team is more likeable than the one in the past few.

It is tough to like a guy who publicly demolishes your favorite team just to get out of town and then comes back and wants to make nice...hard to trust him too. As for Palmer, as big a fan of him as I was prior to last year, Dalton's enthusiasm and fire are exactly what this team has needed and what Palmer lacked. If you can't get behind this team, the Bengals might as well pack their bags because this is the most likable group I have seen since '88.

[HairOnFire]

The Bengals had a seven-plus year streak of home sellouts going until about this time last year, and it's hard to blame anyone for not wanting to spend hundreds of dollars to go sit in the cold and watch last year's train wreck.

If the local economy is so bad it forces fans to stay home the logical conclusion might be that Cincy can't support an NFL team, and as a result doesn't deserve the one it has.

As for this year, you may be right about the fanbase being "poisoned," and I would say you can find the poisoner wearing black and silver -- and his gleeful helpers working at places like ESPN and SI.

Sure, go ahead and point to them. But when you're finished shouldn't we take a moment to point fingers at those who spread poison in the local media or the buttload of fed-ups who gleefully poison fan messageboards?

Frankly, I've always considered the fanbase of the Cleveland Brown's to be a broken bunch due to the way they lost their team. In fact, even after getting a new team they seem to be a retarded bunch who can't right themselves. But honestly, is the Bengal fanbase any less broken? It's almost like a majority of us have grown to like the taste of poison and the pleasant buzz it gives us after being consumed. Too many of us embrace negativity to the point that self loathing and bitterness now defines us.

Combine months of relentless chatter about how bad the Bengals were going to be and how hopeless the Cincy cause must be if a guy would walk away from $50 million rather than play there with the worst economy since the Great Depression and it's kind of amazing that they even manage to get 40k or 50k for a game.

No, it isn't amazing and it's not worth defending anymore. As a fanbase we collectively suck and the proof is there for everyone to see in the form of empty seats.

[HairOnFire]

Ocho also sold a lot of tickets - like it or not.

If you ask me that's just more proof of how screwed up this teams fanbase has become.

Far too many of us root for individual players instead of the team itself, and our reward has been a parade of selfish players who take advantage of that fan support by ignoring their responsibilities as team leaders. Worse, those same star players point to their individual stats as proof of their value while ignoring the way they've starred on a team that has accomplished nothing.

This team seems different, I admit. But despite that, it now plays infront of as many empty seats as cheering fans, and they deserve better. Hell, I deserve better. And most of you deserve better. But by the same token the Ocho and Palmer apologists amongst us got what they deserved last year, and IMHO the WDR crowd that walks amongst us doesn't deserve a team at all.

[HoosierCat]

If the local economy is so bad it forces fans to stay home the logical conclusion might be that Cincy can't support an NFL team, and as a result doesn't deserve the one it has.

That might be a logical conclusion if NFL teams were supported by their local economies, but we both know that ticket sales amount to sprinkles on top of the NFL money donut.

But honestly, is the Bengal fanbase any less broken?

No more or less that any other fanbase. One of the things I've always noticed on the occasions when I browse the board of another team that's having a bad year is just how familiar all the complaints are. Every owner is cheap and/or incompetent, no coaching staff calls timeouts correctly or can make halftime adjustments, nobody can scout or draft worth a crap, anybody who continues to spend money on tickets or merchandise is a loser supporting a loser organization, etc. The fan v. fan squabbles are all the same fed-ups v. die-hards stuff, too.

[HairOnFire]

If the local economy is so bad it forces fans to stay home the logical conclusion might be that Cincy can't support an NFL team, and as a result doesn't deserve the one it has.

That might be a logical conclusion if NFL teams were supported by their local economies, but we both know that ticket sales amount to sprinkles on top of the NFL money donut.

So what you're saying is if everything were made equal things still wouldn't be equal in Cincy.

I can't argue with that.

[derekshank]

[media]http://youtu.be/OqS5U4lSSVg

Good stuff from Simpson.

[HairOnFire]

[media]http://youtu.be/OqS5U4lSSVg

Good stuff from Simpson.

The reaction of Scott Fujita is priceless.

[Sea Ray]

Once again it all gets back to season ticket holders and when they were deciding whether or not to renew, we had a franchise in complete disarray. I don't need to rehash the specifics with any of you but you know what I'm talking about.

We'll see what this yr brings but looking at the past generation of Bengals teams (20 yrs) it's been flat out historically horrible. In fact I'd say the Cincinnati fanbase has been loyal to a fault. It is way past time that 20K season ticket holders said to management "we're not going to rewew until you show us you know how to run a football team". Frankly "his ways" do not deserve sellouts. He had to fire Bob Brat kicking and screaming. If not for the fan revolt, my guess is Bob would still be here. How many worthless seasons did we have to endure of Dave Shula before his firing? He has not hired a GM or redone how he scouts players. Perhaps he made good hires with Zimmer and Gruden but they could be gone anytime now and if they do leave for greener pastures do we think the MB braintrust will make good hires?

If they can build on what they've got going now, great. We can reassess this then but right now I don't blame the folks for withholding their money from MB

[HairOnFire]

In fact I'd say the Cincinnati fanbase has been loyal to a fault.

That's exactly the reaction I would expect to hear from the locals. That, and sad talk about the high cost of everything and griping about the weather.

For most of you being a Bengal fan is strictly limited to showing interest in the team as long as it doesn't cost you a penny. You read the newspaper to see how the team did or you write the occasional post on a sports messageboard. And maybe that's enough for you to qualify as a fan. But there's a reason this team rarely has a home field advantage in any game it plays, including playoff games....where the home team was treated to a shower of boos from it's own fans instead of chants of encouragement.

Point blank, as a fanbase we suck worse than the football team ever has.

[End of Rant]

[Earendil]

If I wasn't on the other side of the country, I'd find a way to go to a game or two.

[gregstephens]

In fact I'd say the Cincinnati fanbase has been loyal to a fault.

Point blank, as a fanbase we suck worse than the football team ever has.

Since you throw around a completely unquantifiable statement as fact, allow me to respond with my favorite quote from 'My Cousin Vinnie'---

"Everything that guy just said is bulls---."

[HairOnFire]

Since you throw around a completely unquantifiable statement as fact, allow me to...

Bloviate?

I offered an opinion. You countered with an opinion. So the only facts to be examined are those that document unsold tickets and empty seats.

And now, if you'll forgive me, I think I'll back away from this oh so sensitive subject and let the rest of you pretend a half empty stadium is proof of your loyalty.

Edit: From the Wiki....

Bloviation is a style of empty, pompous, political speech which originated in Ohio and was used by US President, Warren G. Harding who described it as "the art of speaking for as long as the occasion warrants, and saying nothing".

[TJJackson]

I think you're seeing this whole thing purely from the angle of "attend the game to support the team"

That's not the only angle.

I see it more as "buy the ticket to line Brown's pockets"

If I get a free ticket, I go......and make no purchases of any kind within the stadium. I'm happy to support the team on the field as long as my dollars do not support the scumbag/thief, especially now that most of the cancers have been cut away the team

[gregstephens]

Since you throw around a completely unquantifiable statement as fact, allow me to...

Bloviate?

I offered an opinion. You countered with an opinion. So the only facts to be examined are those that document unsold tickets and empty seats.

And now, if you'll forgive me, I think I'll back away from this oh so sensitive subject and let the rest of you pretend a half empty stadium is proof of your loyalty.

Edit: From the Wiki....

Bloviation is a style of empty, pompous, political speech which originated in Ohio and was used by US President, Warren G. Harding who described it as "the art of speaking for as long as the occasion warrants, and saying nothing".

I understand your position on this is far from unbiased, as being in California, you'd no doubt love the team to come to Los Angeles, even though it has a pretty lousy track record of being able to support an NFL franchise itself.

That said, the opinions of the local fanbase from someone 3,000 miles away with very little knowledge of the economic or cultural climate of the geographical area are far from being reliable.

Do I wish the games were sold out every week? Of course I do. Do I have season tickets? No. I can't afford the PSLs, the tickets or the parking for a family of four. I go to one game every year, regardless of whether the team is doing well or stinking the place up.

As Hoosier pointed out, this team sold out every game for sixty-someodd games, with just two winning seasons in that time period. If your statement is an accusation that the local fanbase is fairweathered, I don't believe the record supports that assumption.

Otherwise, I'm not sure what your statements are intended to accomplish. Not sure why they are in the Browns/Bengals game thread. I've been a Bengal fan since age seven, regardless of how they did, or how many games I've attended. I suspect quite frankly, we're all just getting tired of you making pointless arguments with no objective as to how we collectively suck as a fanbase.

[HoosierCat]

Once again it all gets back to season ticket holders and when they were deciding whether or not to renew, we had a franchise in complete disarray.

I agree, that had a big impact. Six months of stories about how the Bengals will be lucky to win two games isn't going to send ticket sales soaring, and the lockout left them with no way to counter the critics.

But I think their failure to sell out now that they're winning has more to do with ticket prices. I did a bit of poking around at ticketmaster.com and here are the cheapest seat prices around the midwest:

Minnesota $15 (they also have $39, $50 and $62 seats)

KC $25

St. Louis $25

Cleveland $30

Buffalo $45

Detroit $45

Indy $48

Tennessee $50

Pittsburgh $70

Cincinnati $70

Chicago $74

So Cincy is tied for second-most expensive cheap seat -- and given the cost of living difference between Chicago and Cincy you could argue that Cincy and Pitt are effectively the most expensive ticket relative to income around.