What Lap Said on Bengals Line 9/27/10

[membengal]

Fine. You want to believe that it is solely on Carson, that's your right.

And, here's a thought, listen to what I summarized and decide for yourself. I have listened to Lap for the better part of 20 years as the Bengals analyst, and seldom have I ever heard him as pointed in particular criticisms of players (or, for that matter, coaches) as he was last night.

It would be far simpler if this were "just" Carson. I don't think it is.

[gregstephens]

So...in sum...everyone on the offense sucks right now except the two new guys and Benson, with TO being a C-. That's about what we have all figured in these first three games. Good thing we have a defense. Here's to the 2011 draft!

[Sea Ray]

Fine. You want to believe that it is solely on Carson, that's your right.

And, here's a thought, listen to what I summarized and decide for yourself. I have listened to Lap for the better part of 20 years as the Bengals analyst, and seldom have I ever heard him as pointed in particular criticisms of players (or, for that matter, coaches) as he was last night.

It would be far simpler if this were "just" Carson. I don't think it is.

Did I say it was solely on Carson? Anyone who thinks it's solely on Carson please chime in...

This is where I'm coming from. I have higher expectations from Carson than I do from this mediocre line. I think they should make changes by inserting Andre Smith and Mathis. If they choose not to make changes I doubt the line will improve. I don't want a QB change but I do expect better play from my $100mill QB. He can and has to play better because if he doesn't it doesn't matter how well the line plays.

[CJBestInAFC]

They took the whole line to task, army. Said Cook had made more mental errors on snaps and such in three games than all of last year. Said the guy that abused Roland moved inside and then abused Williams on a play.

Laid the blame for Carson throwing with guys at his feet on the whole line. That said, Roland has apparently been really s**tty and was even more so on Sunday.

And I am also puzzled why they will not give Mathis a shot again at guard (I hate what Livings is doing) and try something else at RT other than what they are doing.

They should role with Collins at LT, Lard Ass Andre at RT, and move Whit to Lg. I know Whit probably wont like that but that is our best oline we can put out there, and if Cook continues to struggle I would be willing to put Mathis at C.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

So...in sum...everyone on the offense sucks right now except the two new guys and Benson, with TO being a C-. That's about what we have all figured in these first three games. Good thing we have a defense. Here's to the 2011 draft!

I realize you're going for funny, but I'd hate to lump Gresham and Shipley in with what's otherwise been a steaming pile. And Whitworth hasn't been bad at all. Bobbie's been adequate. B. Scott's been great when actually used...grrrrr.

And I'm totally stoked about seeing '4th and Leonard' back in his usual form.

[bwillycuse]

It all falls on Bratkowski to get production out of these guys.

If Chad isn't performing put in Caldwell or Simpson or Cosby.

NO ONE is secured a starting role on this team and if they are then the coaches are weak.

IDENTIFY THE PROBLEMS AND FIX IT!!!!!!!! If Chad and Carson are not on the same page then get on the same page or find someone that can do it.

Continuing to do the same thing is ridiculous.

Carson is definitely part of the problem - as is Chad, as is the Oline, etc.

I would love for there to be messages sent to the supposedly elite on this team (Palmer, Ocho, TO)

But of course - Our coaches seem to be OK with mediocrity.

Im really getting sick of Lewis and his condescending interviews. He acts like the reporters are stupid for asking him the questions they do. But its questions US the fans want answered.

His nonchalant attitude is maddening.

[COB]

If Chad isn't performing put in Caldwell or Simpson or Cosby.

Agreed. Motivate.

[gregstephens]

So...in sum...everyone on the offense sucks right now except the two new guys and Benson, with TO being a C-. That's about what we have all figured in these first three games. Good thing we have a defense. Here's to the 2011 draft!

I realize you're going for funny, but I'd hate to lump Gresham and Shipley in with what's otherwise been a steaming pile. And Whitworth hasn't been bad at all. Bobbie's been adequate. B. Scott's been great when actually used...grrrrr.

And I'm totally stoked about seeing '4th and Leonard' back in his usual form.

Gresham and Shipley were the new guys I referenced. And no, I wasn't really going for funny. I wasn't counting Scott because he's not technically a starter. And I agree about Leonard. Always loved that guy.

[derekshank]

Im really getting sick of Lewis and his condescending interviews. He acts like the reporters are stupid for asking him the questions they do. But its questions US the fans want answered.

His nonchalant attitude is maddening.

Given what we saw from him in Hard Knocks, I don't think he is "nonchalant" in most aspects of his job. It's just that media interaction is the part of his job that he hates the most.

He's not alone there either. Parcells was always abusive to the media. Belichick always givens one-word non-answers. Marvin simply voices his displeasure.

He's obligated to talk to the media... but as we all know too well, he's not obligated to say anything when he's talking.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

I didn't say it was "ruining David Carr's career" kind of bad. At no point. And Carson is terrible relative to what he has been in the past, but he's not playing David Carr terrible.

David Carr's career QB rating: 75.2

Carson Palmer 2010 (3 games): 71.3

I realize it's only 3 games, but...just sayin'.

And given that Lapham knows a f**kload more about line play and where it might be failing than I do, if Lapham lays a lot of blame there, which he did last night, then that means something to me.

The line's been bad, no doubt. And Lap knows a helluvalot about line play, having done it for a living. That's not the question. The issue is how bad is it, and is enough to get Carson off the hook? My interpretation of what Lapham said is that the blame should be spread around, which is true. Line's been bad. Receivers have been bad. Playcalling has been bad. And Carson's played bad. It sounded less like an outright defense of Carson than you're making it out to be.

What I've seen is that Carson's making bad throws when not pressured. I've also seen QBs play better with worse lines. I believe that more should be expected of him even given the playing conditions.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not singling him out. But these bad receivers we have? Both could be gone next year. The bad O-line? We all want to see revamped.

How about the 'bad' QB? What happens there with the $18M man?

[membengal]

I. am. not. letting. Carson. off. the. hook.

Just noting that it is not as simple as Carson playing better. That's all. That there are more moving pieces here than just the quarterback. Perhaps this board is not nuanced enough to grasp that.

ETA: The Lapham discussion was about what is happening now, and I thought you all might want to read about it if you didn't hear it. Long terms fixes for the various problems don't interest me at this point since the season is underway now. I am more interested in what will make things better starting next week in Cleveland. And I don't think the answer at quarterback is Jordan Palmer or Dan Lefevour...

[bwillycuse]

Im really getting sick of Lewis and his condescending interviews. He acts like the reporters are stupid for asking him the questions they do. But its questions US the fans want answered.

His nonchalant attitude is maddening.

He's obligated to talk to the media... but as we all know too well, he's not obligated to say anything when he's talking.

He succeeds overwhelmingly in this aspect.

I for once want to hear that his Golden Boy needs to step it up. Or even just get the idea that he isn't happy with the play calls or something. I sure hope he is bringing this up behind closed doors.

I wonder though. I really do.

[derekshank]

Im really getting sick of Lewis and his condescending interviews. He acts like the reporters are stupid for asking him the questions they do. But its questions US the fans want answered.

His nonchalant attitude is maddening.

He's obligated to talk to the media... but as we all know too well, he's not obligated to say anything when he's talking.

He succeeds overwhelmingly in this aspect.

I for once want to hear that his Golden Boy needs to step it up. Or even just get the idea that he isn't happy with the play calls or something. I sure hope he is bringing this up behind closed doors.

I wonder though. I really do.

You have to read between the lines with Marvin. And if you do that... I thought it was clear about on Sunday after the game that he thinks Palmer is forcing it into coverage when underneath options are open.

I think that's as clear as you will ever hear him... and I'm sure he's addressing it behind closed doors.

[derekshank]

I. am. not. letting. Carson. off. the. hook.

Just noting that it is not as simple as Carson playing better. That's all. That there are more moving pieces here than just the quarterback.

Agreed. Palmer is part of the problem... not the whole problem.

Honestly, I think the much bigger problem is that this team is trying to do something it hasn't been built for.

Last year, the O-Line did one thing well, and that was run block. Now, with the same O-Line, they are trying throw the ball a lot more.

Well, the O-Line isn't great at pass-blocking, Palmer isn't comfortable under pressure, and Brat calls a lot of plays that take a long time to develop. Combine all three problems... and this is the product.

Palmer isn't a Favre type of player who thrives when escaping the pocket. He's a guy who needs to feel safe in the pocket to complete his throwing motion. The O-Line we've built and the plays we call make him feel very nervous (that much is obvious)... and personally I think his knee injury is still on his mind a lot when the pocket is collapsing. He rarely shows good mechanics.

For better or worse, that is the franchise QB. It's a weakness on his part... but much of it that weakness is a result of his surroundings.

[membengal]

This from .com doesn't make me comfortable that Brat gets it:

/>http://www.bengals.com/news/article-1/Brat-not-looking-for-identity-theft/dd26c559-0f8e-489e-a1dd-0f5da876b60c

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

I. am. not. letting. Carson. off. the. hook.

Just noting that it is not as simple as Carson playing better. That's all. That there are more moving pieces here than just the quarterback. Perhaps this board is not nuanced enough to grasp that.

No one's ever contested otherwise, so you're arguing with......a strawman? And really, the condescending comment at the end there is not becoming to you, nor is it correct. Why you feel the need to interject personal insults into a perfectly civil discussion is beyond me.

My contention is he's worse than you claim and that it's more than an isolated incident. My main frustration is that he keeps making the same mistakes over and over, throwing picks (and near picks) on the same types of routes. Worst, he makes these mistakes even when your 'moving pieces' actually work correctly.

This is not a good characteristic in a guy getting paid as much as he is.

[HairOnFire]

How about a little perspective from Paul Brown himself?

"Nobody exits the clown car with their dignity intact." --- Paul Brown discussing the finer nuances of bad football.

[membengal]

I. am. not. letting. Carson. off. the. hook.

Just noting that it is not as simple as Carson playing better. That's all. That there are more moving pieces here than just the quarterback. Perhaps this board is not nuanced enough to grasp that.

No one's ever contested otherwise, so you're arguing with......a strawman? And really, the condescending comment at the end there is not becoming to you, nor is it correct. Why you feel the need to interject personal insults into a perfectly civil discussion is beyond me.

My contention is he's worse than you claim and that it's more than an isolated incident. My main frustration is that he keeps making the same mistakes over and over, throwing picks (and near picks) on the same types of routes. Worst, he makes these mistakes even when your 'moving pieces' actually work correctly.

This is not a good characteristic in a guy getting paid as much as he is.

My issue with your take on what I wrote and your summation of this thread is that I am "claiming" anything. I was simply putting out there what Lapham said as more information to sift through. And my comment about nuance stands...and was aimed at the board, not you in particular. If it's not possible to pass along information that without people assuming I am saying it, then I don't know what to do about the board. I like to think that there are those on here who are able to do that. You being one of them.

My knee-jerk reaction to the first three games is "Carson sucks". The information from Lapham last night was that Carson sucks, but then he worked at figuring out why. And since I am hoping this team has a playoff future, I thought it worth relating for discussion. I agree he's making the same mistakes over and over again, but there may be more to that than simply hoping he stops making the mistakes. The reasons he's making the mistakes are worth considering. Or so I thought.

Whatever. If I thought yanking Palmer would fix this, I would be all for it. I am pretty damn unsentimental when it comes to such things. I simply want them to win. But if the line issues are worse than I thought, then I guess I should acknowledge that. And on that front, I am a bit captive to the opinions of guys like Lapham, who actually played the position in the NFL...

[ArmyBengal]

I simply think there are entirely to many moving pieces that are having problems across the board to blame one.

Saying that also is NOT giving any one of those moving pieces a "pass" as it was said.

#1. The o-line needs to get better with pass protection. They are having issues with changes in trying to become more balanced.

#2. Carson needs to be more accurate when his target is wide open and he needs to stop forcing the ball to guys double covered.

#3. Chad and TO need to stop being the main focus that are targeted to be targeted when other options exist that would actually open them up.

#4. The WR's still need to do a better job at being precise in their routes (see Chad).

I think the issue is not only Brat and his plan for the offense, not just Carson and some poor decisions, not just the WR's and bad route running, and not just the o-line and their poor pass protection, but everyone. That's right, I said it, EVERYONE. Benson and the little used Scott and Leonard are the only offensive players I don't currently have issue with.

Anyone who thinks or says it's simply one person or player is flat wrong.

[Wraith]

Always love Lapham he is as honest as it gets.

[COB]

Always love Lapham he is as honest as it gets.

I listened to the radio call of the game. Lap was urging Roland to get off his ass to line up for the field goal. "Come on Dennis! Come on Dennis!! COME ON DENNIS!" Meanwhile the play by play guy was just counting down the seconds in the background. It was pretty classic.

[volcom69]

This coaching staff just dosnt get it, they think everything is "ok" People should be losing there starting jobs, players should be benched for running the wrong routes when they had all offseason to prepare. It makes me sick as a fan to know that something is not right, but the head man dosnt want to do something about it. Time to teach a lession to the players, they dont seem to be getting it anyother way.

[chandon]

I simply think there are entirely to many moving pieces that are having problems across the board to blame one.

Saying that also is NOT giving any one of those moving pieces a "pass" as it was said.

#1. The o-line needs to get better with pass protection. They are having issues with changes in trying to become more balanced.

#2. Carson needs to be more accurate when his target is wide open and he needs to stop forcing the ball to guys double covered.

#3. Chad and TO need to stop being the main focus that are targeted to be targeted when other options exist that would actually open them up.

#4. The WR's still need to do a better job at being precise in their routes (see Chad).

I think the issue is not only Brat and his plan for the offense, not just Carson and some poor decisions, not just the WR's and bad route running, and not just the o-line and their poor pass protection, but everyone. That's right, I said it, EVERYONE. Benson and the little used Scott and Leonard are the only offensive players I don't currently have issue with.

Anyone who thinks or says it's simply one person or player is flat wrong.

I agree Army. But more than that, after reading many comments on the Board over the last few weeks on the offensive issues I really think the only thing that will bring any lasting benefit is a change to the coaching staff.

A few years ago, we had a sucky defense that was giving up points all over the place.

Then we got Zimmer.

He got the right people...in the right places...with the RIGHT ATTITUDE and motivated and disciplined them to become a cohesive unit.

Now Carson is not a bad QB. Most of the OL are not bad players. Our WRs and RBs are better than average. So what's the problem? What is the common factor that links all these different players? IT IS THE COACHES!!

I honestly think Carson is going backwards in his career because of bad coaching. I think he is incredibly frustrated in his own poor performance, but can't see any light at the end of the tunnel to fix it. I feel the OL will not get any better until there are changes in the coaching staff. A new broom can sweep clean, and someone with fresh ideas and new motivational approaches can possibly get a lot more out of our players.

I can't back everything I say up with stats and figures, as I don't get to see the games here in the UK. But sometimes, outside-looking-in is a better perspective, and IMHO we desparately need new coaching staff with a fresh approach. We need a 'Zimmer OC' !!!

[Stripes]

My issue with your take on what I wrote and your summation of this thread is that I am "claiming" anything. I was simply putting out there what Lapham said as more information to sift through. And my comment about nuance stands...and was aimed at the board, not you in particular. If it's not possible to pass along information that without people assuming I am saying it, then I don't know what to do about the board. I like to think that there are those on here who are able to do that. You being one of them.

Just the same, I'd expect you to understand that when I don't specify "LAPHAM" in my post, I am still contesting HIS point, since you were indeed the messenger.

[cHaD711Johnson]

We do need to stop forcing it to Chad and TO. However, we need to be smarter in how we use them. TO needs to be hit on more short routes because he has the ability to turn this into huge gains with YAC. If you keep hitting Gresham and Shipley then it'll open things up more for Chad and TO, and also open up the run game for Ced. It's pretty simple there's no need to force passes into double and triple coverage we have far too many weapons.