Bengals vs. Panthers postgame discussion

[kingwilly]

If he cannot improve, given all of these very good weapons, then I will agree he is done.

I think this is the make/break year for Palmer.

[COB]

Watching Carson turn into Drew Bledso isn't fun. But what's worse is flailing about with a replacement. How'd the Eagles look with Kolb? So until we have someone better, it's Carson.

I believe he'll have some good games this year. He's forcing it to Chad and TO, and not getting very good protection while he's doing it. Correct those two things and he'll look better.

Is Bratkowskis's contract up at the end of this season? I hope it is.

[derekshank]

The thing about Palmer's poor play is that it's strongly related to trying to throw the ball to 85. Palmer-to-Ocho was something like 4 catches/12 targets for 34 yards and a pick. TO was 4/8/42 and a pick. Meanwhile, Gresham and Shipley were targeted about 10 times and caught 7 for a combined 96 yards.

I recall in the preseason during the ongoing Chad saga, Hair bringing up a point similar to this one... that the vast majority of Palmer's interceptions were passes intended for Chad. I'd hate for the two of you to agree on something.

No matter... it appears Marvin agrees with both of you. Perhaps the first time in history that the three of you have agreed on anything. Here's the quote:

The tight end keeps becoming a big factor. We saw him today, and that’s what we’re going to have to see. They want to keep doing the things they’re doing outside, and not letting us get the ball vertically down the field. Those are the things. Early on we had a couple of those calls where we didn’t get the right coverage matched up... I’m always stressing that with our guys. That’s important emphasis for me. In order to get defense back off, you’ve got to keep pushing those. But you don’t want to just give it to them when you do it. Again, we’ve got to go back to work. Get some things ironed out.

That's Marvin speak for "Quit throwing the damn ball to Chad and T.O. when they aren't f**king open!"

[kingwilly]

Good grief, could LeFevour be the answer?

If this season does tank (which I doubt) the answer could be a guy like Mallett.

[ArmyBengal]

Yeah, I'm actually going to complain about a win. It was absolutely horrible watching this offense flounder about today.

I really can't complain about the defense, but they were giving up stuff in the middle of the field in the 2nd half that was painful.

Riddle me this...

HOW DOES BRATKOWSKI NOT KNOW WHEN CARSON AUDIBLES BY RAISING HIS HAND AT THE LINE, THAT EVERYONE KNOWS IT'S A RUN ??

Seriously, if someone were so inclined to go back and rewatch this game, I would venture a bet that EVERYTIME Carson audibled like that, it was a run. I know people are saying there is no way the "average" fan can tell what the offense is going to run, but that sh*t was ridiculous today. It got to a point, the other people in the bar were commenting on it and they aren't even Bengals fans.

Carson needs to get his sh*t together plain and simple. Stop telling us how it's your fault and you need to do a better job and just go f*cking do it already. Stop forcing the ball the Chad and T.O. already. I mean really, it's old and you have Shipley and Gresham that appear to be trying harder. Carson just looked like sh*t and I'm concerned. It's not to say he can't turn it around, but concern is the first word that comes to mind when thinking about it.

It appears everyone was having problems with their footing on that field and the rain didn't help anyone hold onto the ball, but none of that, when taken into consideration, makes me feel better about Carson going forward from this point.

Glad they won, but games like that won't result in wins more often than not.

[Wraith]

There was a time not too long ago when the Bengals would have lost a game like this. Carson had a bad game and this is about 5 in a row, Cleveland will be an important test. I have been a Carson supporter through all of this and I do believe it will get figured out, though I wonder if this team wouldn't be better without 85, the good news is that we are solid enough in all other areas that we can win dispite our offense, that is not something you have been able to say about many Bengals teams in the past. We have 3 weeks before we play another playoff caliber team, that gives us three weeks to sort this mess out.

[volcom69]

There has to be something to say though on why he is forcing the balls to Chad and TO. Why are Chad and TO not getting open, is it because of the routes they are running. This was the problem last year, no one was getting open, even when Palmer has time he is holding the ball for way to long for someone to get open. I know we all want to blame Palmer, and most of it is his fault, but man Chad looks off his game, TO dosnt look that sharp. These guys have to learn to make catches in traffic. This week again they are always losing there one on one matchups. Just like last week, TO is not winning his battles for the ball, and Chad is having problems catching the ball. I dont know so far it looks like this offense is worse then last year, its alomst like watching paint dry. The Bengals games are putting me alseep!!!!!!

Its time for Palmer to step up and be a leader, the way it looks there is no captin on offense. From what i heard from the coaches and players, its like nobody wants to admit theres a problem. Until they admit to themselves there a problem i think were going to keep seeing paint dry.

[kingwilly]

There was a time not too long ago when the Bengals would have lost a game like this. Carson had a bad game and this is about 5 in a row, Cleveland will be an important test. I have been a Carson supporter through all of this and I do believe it will get figured out, though I wonder if this team wouldn't be better without 85, the good news is that we are solid enough in all other areas that we can win dispite our offense, that is not something you have been able to say about many Bengals teams in the past. We have 3 weeks before we play another playoff caliber team, that gives us three weeks to sort this mess out.

I agree. We will probably drop one of the next three.

Then begins a 4 game stretch that will define the season:

@ ATL

MIA

PIT

@ Indy

If they can get through that better than .500, they have a shot. If they go 2-2, it will be very hard.

I am encouraged by how the D played today. If the Offense can just get marginally better, there is hope. If they sputter along, then i will be calling for Brat's head (even more than I already do so now).

[ArmyBengal]

I was considering making a post commenting that maybe Carson has to MANY weapons at his disposal.

Then I sat and watched Peyton Manning again (yeah he's pretty good, no I'm not saying Carson is Peyton) and that guy not only has a sh*tload of weapons, he uses ALL of them. Wayne, Garcon, Collie, Clark, Gonzales, Addai out of the backfield, and even some unknown rookie for a TD today. Carson has Chad, T.O, Shipley, Gresham, Benson and Scott both out of the backfield, and you could even throw in Caldwell like we saw today and yet he appears so confused it's startling.

Sure, I'm still hopeful he can get it all together and I'm not saying that he's done, but I'm certainly not happy to this point in time.

[ArmyBengal]

Brat is and has been an inadequate OC for some time. There have been "Fire Brat Now" threads going on for at least 4 years now.

[volcom69]

I was considering making a post commenting that maybe Carson has to MANY weapons at his disposal.

Then I sat and watched Peyton Manning again (yeah he's pretty good, no I'm not saying Carson is Peyton) and that guy not only has a sh*tload of weapons, he uses ALL of them. Wayne, Garcon, Collie, Clark, Gonzales, Addai out of the backfield, and even some unknown rookie for a TD today. Carson has Chad, T.O, Shipley, Gresham, Benson and Scott both out of the backfield, and you could even throw in Caldwell like we saw today and yet he appears so confused it's startling.

Sure, I'm still hopeful he can get it all together and I'm not saying that he's done, but I'm certainly not happy to this point in time.

Im begining to wonder if Palmer is having trouble reading defenses. Im puzzled about how last year against the Bears he looked like he was a probowl QB, like he was in 2005. However that was really the only game where he was amazing, all the other games he looked average. Too me he is having problems reading what the defense is doing, and other teams are seeing this and running the same defense.

[wpeldios]

I would also like to add in, If the bengals continue to struggle on punt returns, averaging around 5 yards a return. How long before we start getting Shipley involved there.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

Watching Gresham throw his man into the ground before catching his 2nd screen pass for a long 1st down on the computer DVR. That's a really impressive replay.

[cHaD711Johnson]

Chad is seeing a lot of double coverage. Which is why Gresham and Shipley are open. Carson is just making terrible throws and terrible decisions. If Chad or TO aren't open he needs to stop trying to force it in there. Point blank period. Put the ball in a spot where only our guy can make a play, check down, or throw it away. He's been in the league far too long to be making horrible decisions like the ones we see weekly. He throws about 4 balls per game that should be picked off.

[redsbengalsbucks]

I would also like to add in, If the bengals continue to struggle on punt returns, averaging around 5 yards a return. How long before we start getting Shipley involved there.

Cosby had an average game, he got 8.4 yards/PR and didnt turn the ball over. I'm happy with that. I still have a little concern about him catching punts inside the 10 yard line, but he is not even in my top ten worries for next week.

Top Ten concerns heading into Brownies game.

1. Palmer accuracy

2. Brat play calling

3. Palmer decision making

4. O-line play

5. Palmer/Lewis/Brat clock management and pre-snap penalties

6. Chad's drops

7. TO's lack of effort in getting open

8. Lack of touches for Bernard Scott

9. Adam Jones getting healthy and taking Trent off the field more often

10. Lack of a pass Rush

They really need to work on the top 7 of these. If they play like that again, against Cleveland, it will be a blow-out. The Browns are a much better team this year.

I have lost most of my hope for a return to the play-offs, this team is not going to win 10 games without major changes.

[membengal]

What was infuriating about that game for me was how easily they moved the ball when Brat would call and Carson would execute passes that were not forced at CJ. I feel the issue is far more passes forced to Johnson than to Owens, frankly. The screens to Gresham were money, why didn't they run more of those? Shipley is money and getting open, throw him the ball more. The last drive that led to the Benson TD pass, two consecutive beautiful misdirection passes to Gresham and Benson for the TD. If they have those in the playbook, why are those not the passes being called and thrown more often? It gets Palmer in a rhythm, and it moves the team. And it will open up the running game. Palmer needs to stop forcing the ball to CJ and take what's given. Driving me crazy.

Oh, and while we are here, swing passes to Bernard Scott, Brat. I know this team has those in the playbook. Need to actually use some of those too. Jeebus.

[Sea Ray]

I dont know so far it looks like this offense is worse then last year, its alomst like watching paint dry. The Bengals games are putting me alseep!!!!!!

Its time for Palmer to step up and be a leader, the way it looks there is no captin on offense. From what i heard from the coaches and players, its like nobody wants to admit theres a problem. Until they admit to themselves there a problem i think were going to keep seeing paint dry.

I sure wouldn't say it is worse than last year. Have you noticed the contributions of Shipley and Gresham? Try winning yesterday without those two.

[Sea Ray]

What was infuriating about that game for me was how easily they moved the ball when Brat would call and Carson would execute passes that were not forced at CJ. I feel the issue is far more passes forced to Johnson than to Owens, frankly. The screens to Gresham were money, why didn't they run more of those? Shipley is money and getting open, throw him the ball more. The last drive that led to the Benson TD pass, two consecutive beautiful misdirection passes to Gresham and Benson for the TD. If they have those in the playbook, why are those not the passes being called and thrown more often? It gets Palmer in a rhythm, and it moves the team. And it will open up the running game. Palmer needs to stop forcing the ball to CJ and take what's given. Driving me crazy.

Oh, and while we are here, swing passes to Bernard Scott, Brat. I know this team has those in the playbook. Need to actually use some of those too. Jeebus.

I agree. Throw dink passes all day to Gresham, Shipley and the backs until they stop doubling Chad and TO. Cedric looked good on that TD catch. Why don't we see that more?

[redsbengalsbucks]

What was infuriating about that game for me was how easily they moved the ball when Brat would call and Carson would execute passes that were not forced at CJ. I feel the issue is far more passes forced to Johnson than to Owens, frankly. The screens to Gresham were money, why didn't they run more of those? Shipley is money and getting open, throw him the ball more. The last drive that led to the Benson TD pass, two consecutive beautiful misdirection passes to Gresham and Benson for the TD. If they have those in the playbook, why are those not the passes being called and thrown more often? It gets Palmer in a rhythm, and it moves the team. And it will open up the running game. Palmer needs to stop forcing the ball to CJ and take what's given. Driving me crazy.

Oh, and while we are here, swing passes to Bernard Scott, Brat. I know this team has those in the playbook. Need to actually use some of those too. Jeebus.

I agree. Throw dink passes all day to Gresham, Shipley and the backs until they stop doubling Chad and TO. Cedric looked good on that TD catch. Why don't we see that more?

It is not flashy enough for the limited mental capacity that Brat displays. If Moss is covered, Welker or a multitude of RB/TE's get targeted repeatedly. This continues until Moss either gets single coverage or beats two DB's. Why cant our O look at the very together attack that is NE and learn from it?

If Shipley and Gresham(add Benson, Leonard and Scott) start to have monster numbers in the pass game, teams will have to account for them and Chad and TO will get open and have better production. It seems so easy, this team has so many weapons, yet they continue to force throws to double coverage or worse. They always seem to try and get the big play. Take what is there and it opens up the rest.

VERY FRUSTRATING!!!

[bwillycuse]

I would also like to add in, If the bengals continue to struggle on punt returns, averaging around 5 yards a return. How long before we start getting Shipley involved there.

Cosby had an average game, he got 8.4 yards/PR and didnt turn the ball over. I'm happy with that. I still have a little concern about him catching punts inside the 10 yard line, but he is not even in my top ten worries for next week.

Top Ten concerns heading into Brownies game.

1. Palmer accuracy

2. Brat play calling

3. Palmer decision making

4. O-line play

5. Palmer/Lewis/Brat clock management and pre-snap penalties

6. Chad's drops

7. TO's lack of effort in getting open

8. Lack of touches for Bernard Scott

9. Adam Jones getting healthy and taking Trent off the field more often

10. Lack of a pass Rush

They really need to work on the top 7 of these. If they play like that again, against Cleveland, it will be a blow-out. The Browns are a much better team this year.

Though I agree with most you say here, the Browns aren't very good.

If Wallace starts next week, then all we need to do is stop the run and they cant really move the ball.

Their secondary is pretty green and pretty vulnerable at the moment.

They can be worn down IMO and they completely fold in the second half...mentally and physically.

But again - I agree with the list.

[redsbengalsbucks]

I would also like to add in, If the bengals continue to struggle on punt returns, averaging around 5 yards a return. How long before we start getting Shipley involved there.

Cosby had an average game, he got 8.4 yards/PR and didnt turn the ball over. I'm happy with that. I still have a little concern about him catching punts inside the 10 yard line, but he is not even in my top ten worries for next week.

Top Ten concerns heading into Brownies game.

1. Palmer accuracy

2. Brat play calling

3. Palmer decision making

4. O-line play

5. Palmer/Lewis/Brat clock management and pre-snap penalties

6. Chad's drops

7. TO's lack of effort in getting open

8. Lack of touches for Bernard Scott

9. Adam Jones getting healthy and taking Trent off the field more often

10. Lack of a pass Rush

They really need to work on the top 7 of these. If they play like that again, against Cleveland, it will be a blow-out. The Browns are a much better team this year.

Though I agree with most you say here, the Browns aren't very good.

If Wallace starts next week, then all we need to do is stop the run and they cant really move the ball.

Their secondary is pretty green and pretty vulnerable at the moment.

They can be worn down IMO and they completely fold in the second half...mentally and physically.

But again - I agree with the list.

I didnt say the Browns are good, just much better than last year, when we had problems beating them in Cleveland. Remember they made it a game against the Ravens and ran the ball very well against them. It will not be easy to stop the run game and if Palmer throws 2 or more INT's they will blow out the Bengals at home.

The status quo will not work next week, changes need to be made! Start by FIRING BRAT!!! It's not like a new O-Cordinator will make the Offense look worse than it already does.

[ct_bengal]

I would also like to add in, If the bengals continue to struggle on punt returns, averaging around 5 yards a return. How long before we start getting Shipley involved there.

Cosby had an average game, he got 8.4 yards/PR and didnt turn the ball over. I'm happy with that. I still have a little concern about him catching punts inside the 10 yard line, but he is not even in my top ten worries for next week.

Top Ten concerns heading into Brownies game.

1. Palmer accuracy

2. Brat play calling

3. Palmer decision making

4. O-line play

5. Palmer/Lewis/Brat clock management and pre-snap penalties

6. Chad's drops

7. TO's lack of effort in getting open

8. Lack of touches for Bernard Scott

9. Adam Jones getting healthy and taking Trent off the field more often

10. Lack of a pass Rush

They really need to work on the top 7 of these. If they play like that again, against Cleveland, it will be a blow-out. The Browns are a much better team this year.

Though I agree with most you say here, the Browns aren't very good.

If Wallace starts next week, then all we need to do is stop the run and they cant really move the ball.

Their secondary is pretty green and pretty vulnerable at the moment.

They can be worn down IMO and they completely fold in the second half...mentally and physically.

But again - I agree with the list.

I didnt say the Browns are good, just much better than last year, when we had problems beating them in Cleveland. Remember they made it a game against the Ravens and ran the ball very well against them. It will not be easy to stop the run game and if Palmer throws 2 or more INT's they will blow out the Bengals at home.

The status quo will not work next week, changes need to be made! Start by FIRING BRAT!!! It's not like a new O-Cordinator will make the Offense look worse than it already does.

fire brat. im tired of his garbage ass play calling, it catches no one off guard. he needs to find a way and fast. carson is good not elite and if sanchez can throw tds so can carson. brats plays take way too much time to develop. f**k him and his stupid bifocles sitting in the room like he is some type of mad scientist...can't even gameplan effectively.

[Sea Ray]

fire brat. im tired of his garbage ass play calling, it catches no one off guard. he needs to find a way and fast. carson is good not elite and if sanchez can throw tds so can carson. brats plays take way too much time to develop. f**k him and his stupid bifocles sitting in the room like he is some type of mad scientist...can't even gameplan effectively.

Actually the only plays that did catch Carolina off guard were new ones, the screen to Gresham and the TD pass to Benson. Think how good we'd be if he had more creative play calls on any given Sunday? Brat's attitude has always been "we're better than you and you can't stop us even if you know it's coming".

However one has to remember the other guys are getting paid too. They're pretty good. This isn't OSU-Eastern Mich. I think in the NFL you do need to fool the defense.

Today the 49ers fired their O-coordinator. If only we had that sort of resolve around here

[CJBestInAFC]

I have been thinking a lot about the offense while I read this thread. The oline has not been playing good, and opposing defenses seem to be double covering Chad and TO a lot. We need to use Ship and Gresh and our rbs in the passing game a lot more.

Now as I thought about that, now this may sound crazy to people but I really think the Bengals should try this. Since teams are double covering Chad and TO on almost every passing play why don't we play Jerome Simpson more. I like Caldwell but he really doesn't help the offense because he plays the slot and Shipley is already the slot guy. Caldwell had one catch and played some STs.

Now if the Bengals made Caldwell inactive and activated Simpson and let Simpson be involved in the offense more you could line up Simpson with Chad or TO on the other side of the field. Teams will double Chad or TO who ever is on the field leaving Simpson in single coverage because Simpson is not a known name. This is kind of like what happened with the no name guy that caught a pass from Peyton Manning yesterday. No one respected him leaving him one on one in the endzone. Like the the no name guy in Indy, Simpson will not be respected by opposing defenses allowing him to have single coverage, which he can beat. I just think that teams will constantly double team TO and Chad and Palmer will try to force the ball to them which will lead to picks and incomplete passes. Why are the Bengals so hesitant to play Simpson? He played great in the preseason why not try him out there. he could be an explosive weapon for the Bengals offense. Thoughs?

[ArmyBengal]

Anyone have any further thoughts on Carson raising his hand at the line to audible, resulting in a running play ??

I hate that sh*t.

Two more things:

1. Agree with how poor it is to see Carson forcing the ball to Chad and T.O., it just isn't working and is painfully obvious.

2. This team still has no identity and it pisses me off.