Palmer in the no-huddle vs. ball control offense

[cincyhokie]

Be agressive. Punch 'em in the mouth. But don't even think about running the ball until you're up by multiple scores?

What the f**k is wrong with you people?

Come on man. Of course you're going to run the ball some no matter what you do. My point is that the Bengals have the recieving capabilities to score on any team.

However, did you notice the way Cleveland was penetrating the O-line? The Bengals weren't going to run the ball Sunday...on top of that they were down 10 points on 2 occasions and down 13 points once.

They're 2 longest runs were in the no-huddle after the Bengals had softened the Browns defense WITH THE PASS.

It's not rocket science here. The Bengals have the ability to jump on teams and take a quick lead. WHY NOT???

[cincyhokie]

No, but I'll take that as confirmation that despite you ravings, you do know that it was turnovers and not the passing game that produced a loss in Cleveland.

Fact: The Bengals passed like crazy against one of the worst teams in the NFL.

Fact: The pass happy Bengals trailed in that game from start to finish, and lost to a previously winless team.

Fact: Everything else is spin.

Only one here spinning is you. Fact: teams that are -2 on turnover ratio lose 80% of those games, whether they run, pass or watusi on the sideline.

Everything else is spin.

Also. The Bengals are 9-37 when losing the turnover differential under Marvin.

[cincyhokie]

Correction: You awarded the boat an imaginary cigar either because you agreed with his empty claim about how the Bengals would have lost against Cleveland under any circumstance or because you agreed with his claim that they won't win a 2nd division title with the very same O-line that allowed them to sweep the division last year. Frankly, both claims are crap since the Bengals routinely beat Cleveland in the recent past by running the ball, and if they can't win the division this year it's likely due to a change in strategy that you've supported at every turn despite your admission that the O-line isn't talented enough to be a pass first group.

The Browns? Not the same team this year. The Steelers? Keisel and Polomalu are back. Not the same team this year. The Ravens? Not the same team this year.

I just don't think it's going to be as easy to run on teams this year...simply because "we did it last year". Every year is different, every team changes.

For years the Bengals have been behind the curve in being out schemed. They add Gresham and other threats who have improved the offense. Can Brat use what he has? They have the talent to move the ball on the ground and in the air.

Who knows...even forgetting the fact that Shaun Rogers wasn't stepping on Cook's head all game, if the Bengal's defense wouldn't have allowed the Browns mulitple leads, maybe the Bengals try and run it all day.

[COB]

Only one here spinning is you. Fact: teams that are -2 on turnover ratio lose 80% of those games, whether they run, pass or watusi on the sideline.

Everything else is spin.

2 quick points.

1. The 3rd quarter turnover that gave the Browns the ball on our 13 was Carson pulling the ball down after pumping then aborting a throw. Pocket collapsed and a Brown slapped the ball out of Carson's hand. Passing game caused that turnover, or put another way that turnover doesn't happen if we're running the ball.

2. Ever play defense in a game where the other team just ran the ball down your throat the length of the field? It's brutal, demoralizing, and a huge factor in games. Remember that long drive the Browns had in the third quarter? Hillis up the middle again and again. Our knockout hitter Roy Williams got a clean shot on him, and Hillis flattened him and kept going. How do you think our defense felt watching a woozy Roy Williams slowly climb to his feet after that play?

My point is the running game and the passing game aren't equal. Crushing teams with the run changes games. It sure changed some for us last year.

[volcom69]

Last year the bengals were very physical at the line on both sides of the ball, so far this year i have not seen this. Its the same o-line as last year, and all of a sudden they cant run block? These guys should have gotten better after a whole year of playing next to one another.

It pathetic that this team has gotten away from its idenity. They have spent so much time teaching these guys how to pass block, they forgot how to run block. The o-line is getting no push at all, they need to get back to playing physical like they did last year.

I dont mind them throwing the ball, but dont get away from running it, and i hope this week they get back to basics on offense and run the ball. Only because who knows what Carson we will get this week. I like what i saw from Carson, but who knows how consistant he will be.

[cincyhokie]

Why would the Bengals run the ball when the Browns were dominating the point of attack when the Bengals were trying to run the ball?

Why would anyone expect the Bengals to run the ball as usual when they were down 10-0, 20-10, and 23-10?

Why would the Bengals not go to the air when they were shredding the Browns in the no-huddle?

[HoosierCat]

Only one here spinning is you. Fact: teams that are -2 on turnover ratio lose 80% of those games, whether they run, pass or watusi on the sideline.

Everything else is spin.

2 quick points.

1 quick point: see above.

[TJJackson]

as I recall there weren't that many of us calling for O-line help.

A quote for ya, Hair....see if you can guess who wrote it ad nauseum......."gimme a lineman"

I even had to "pimp my avatar' after all but guarenteeing the Bengals would take a lineman in r1. I don't dislike Gresham, but still would have preferred a lineman, either side.

As a special bonus, I'll go ahead and preview my personal 2011 draft strategy for you free of charge and well in advance - "gimme a lineman"

After my fondness for great special teams play, I want to control the line of scrimmage on both sides of the ball. IMHO, if you control the line of scrimmage, all your other players can be average/solid and you will win more often that not, because even the best QBs wilt under a heavy pass rush and pedestrian running backs look like stars when the running lanes are open

[COB]

Only one here spinning is you. Fact: teams that are -2 on turnover ratio lose 80% of those games, whether they run, pass or watusi on the sideline.

Everything else is spin.

2 quick points.

1 quick point: see above.

You can't counter my post with the post my post was countering in the first place! This violates the law of the internet.

[HairOnFire]

Fact: teams that are -2 on turnover ratio lose 80% of those games, whether they run, pass or watusi on the sideline.

Yeah, we get it. Turnovers are bad.

How's the rehab going?

[membengal]

I co-sign cincy hokie's posts and will be subscribing to his newsletter.

[Spor_tees]

Well I'll throw (get it) my two cents in on this thread.

Regardless of the Bengals game plan, pass or run, if the O-line continues to block the way the did Sunday, they lose. I pointed out over and over again how inept the O-line was and the mistakes particular players made, even on good plays. When Cedric Benson had one good run he only did so after having to stiff arm Nate Living's guy 2 yards in the backfield. If I am not mistaken, one of Carson's sacks came because of a missed block by Gresham. One of the most comical plays was when Dennis Roland was trying to pass block, and got so turned around he was trying to block his guy by essentially 'block him out' with his back turned to him. I wonder if Paul Alexander taught him that technique?

So what's the answer? Let Carson run the hurry up all game and try to call the plays at the line of scrimmage? Well everyone in the NFL knows what he is going to call, 99% of his audibles are to the run. Do we let Brat continue to call in the plays? It's been well documented how awful his play calling is and that the plays are so complicated the players can't grasp them. Well my answer is to go and steal the game plans of the teams that are successful. In fact let's look at on team in particular that is even in the same division, the Steelers:

It's been talked about over and over and no matter how a team designs against them, they continue to be a successful franchise throughout the years. They start fast, score early and often, using passes, trick plays, and the occasional run. They then turn it into grind mode, running the ball and the clock into oblivion opposing their will on opposing teams and crushing their moral.

Now if the coaches could only grow a pair and step up and teach this team to be disciplined, with controlled aggression, and prepared to play at the opening kickoff, maybe they can win a few games. Games that not only include those they are supposed to win, but the tough ones that could go either way.

[HairOnFire]

Come on man. Of course you're going to run the ball some no matter what you do. My point is that the Bengals have the recieving capabilities to score on any team.

They just proved they can't score through the air very often even when one of their WR's tops 220 yards in receiving in a single game, and Carson Palmer passes for more years than any other NFL QB that week. And of course that followed a week where the Bengals passing offense put more than a half dozen passes up for grabs...and flat out dropped more than 100 yards of potential production.

However, did you notice the way Cleveland was penetrating the O-line? The Bengals weren't going to run the ball Sunday...on top of that they were down 10 points on 2 occasions and down 13 points once.

They were only down by 3 points at the half. And being down by 10 points with plenty of time left to play is hardly a valid excuse for abandoning the run....which is exactly what you're doing when your gameplan calls for far more 3&4-WR formations than 2-TE formations, as witnessed AGAIN this week.

It's not rocket science here. The Bengals have the ability to jump on teams and take a quick lead. WHY NOT???

Why not? Because right now the Bengals are a pass happy team that can't produce on 3rd down, can't produce in the RedZone, and with the exception of field goals can barely score at all. In fact, they're suddenly vulnerable to opposing teams who can grind them down using many of the same Smashball trappings now discarded by the Error-Bengal passing attack.

[markymark69]

In my opinion I think they need to go no-huddle. They look a lot better in the no-huddle - you can still run the ball out of it and I agree with the comment that Palmer looks more comfortable in the no-huddle. The no-huddle fits him better. The line seems to be more alert in that type of offense - and obviously the defense can't substitute, which helps with match-ups.

At this point I don't think it would hurt to go that way, then when you get the lead then you can hammer it in the ball-control if need be.

You have to play to your stenghts and the no-huddle looks to be a strength for this team.

[HairOnFire]

I co-sign cincy hokie's posts and will be subscribing to his newsletter.

It's called the BSOPB Digest.

This weeks edition featured the headline "Fake ID" and attempts to explain, in hindsight, how the Bengals actually had no chance to win last weeks game against a team they've historically dominated, and how the suprising key for any future Bengal success is now based upon moving even further away from last season's division championship winning identity. That's right, even less running and even more passing.

And don't forget to look for a series of guest articles written by a now rehabbing Hoosier entitled...."Grasping The Obvious With Both Hands"

[COB]

Tampa Bay is 28th in the league in defending the run. Brat better come out and smashmouth these guys, or I'll lose what little respect I have left for him.

[ArmyBengal]

What I think is, what this o-line was capable of doing well was only possible due to the fact they were able to beef up the o-line with another OT because our TE spot went to sh*t when Kelly, Utecht, and Coffman were on IR or incapable of making any impact.

You're preaching to the converted. All I'll add is that the TE position only went to s**t in regards to catching the ball. Well, that and the greatest trick this coaching staff ever pulled off was making a positive out of the wreckage that was the TE corp. But that same coaching staff quickly flushed their handiwork as soon as it was possible due to it's desire/demand that pass catchers be available everywhere. As a result the Bengals are better on paper, especially on offensive stat pages, yet worse in the won/loss standings.

It's the same reason many of us were calling for o-line draft picks early and often headed into the 2010 draft.

Actually, as I recall there weren't that many of us calling for O-line help. In fact, I'd have to say that my pimping of Pouncey in the 1st round was met with shrugs of indifference or gentle mocking. And yeah, most of those voices who were calling for more weapons here, there, and everywhere are the very same voices now pointing to the O-line as this teams biggest weakness...as if they just figured out the rest of the puzzle.

I really don't understand what people don't get about this seasons o-line. It's very simple when you look at what they did last year in comparison to their shift in game plan this year. It's simply not the same. I keep seeing; "what happened", "what's wrong", and things like, "I just don't get it", in regards to the o-line. IT'S THE CHANGE OF THE OFFENSIVE GAME PLAN.

Also, I loved the thought of Pouncey or Iupati getting drafted by the Bengals in the first. Iupati was the guys I pimped very early and Pouncey was equally impressive. The reason is the fact of what they would have brought physically to the interior of our o-line. People will counter that by saying, "well they would take time to develop". To that I say, now we are forced to wait yet another year for someone new, you know is coming, to develop. Carson isn't getting younger.

Agree that it's not about disliking Gresham, because I like him alot. Thing is, they took the extra OT off the line to bring him in and run routes. They don't have the same run blocking skills minus one guy and the pass blocking suckitude is now amplified.

[HairOnFire]

I just don't think it's going to be as easy to run on teams this year...simply because "we did it last year". Every year is different, every team changes.

Yeah, but they're not running the ball very well precisely because they willingly changed from what they had worked so well the year before. And there's the rub because they didn't have to change their identity. Rather, they wanted to. Or if you prefer, they needed to in order to take the next step....from pretender to contender. But last time I checked the playoffs were several months away, right? So maybe, just maybe, it isn't the brightest idea to open the new season by ignoring a proven power running attack while focusing on a passing game built upon newcomers and a revamped playbook.

For years the Bengals have been behind the curve in being out schemed.

Perhaps. But I'm reminded how the two most maligned coaches on the Bengals staff managed to outscheme their rivals last season using changes to the O-line and TE position. Neither can I forget how both of those successful changes were in fact abandoned this offseason, despite assurances to the contrary, and were in fact replaced almost completely by the previously delayed total overhaul of the TE position. So to those of you who claim nothing has changed I'll counter by saying that almost everything has changed, from the players involved to the role they play and how those changes impact an offensive line manned almost entirely by Sluggo types.

They add Gresham and other threats who have improved the offense. Can Brat use what he has?

To the first point...to date they've only improved on the stat page. On the scoreboard they're actually worse. In fact, they're practically inept on 3rd down and in the Red Zone, the very two things that all of the changes should have upgraded most, but haven't. And to the last point, no, he can't use what he has. And if Cedric Benson's lack of work isn't proof enough for you....consider Bernard Scott's role in this offense. Because he doesn't seem to have one anymore. Somebody else is getting his opportunities.

Who knows...even forgetting the fact that Shaun Rogers wasn't stepping on Cook's head all game, if the Bengal's defense wouldn't have allowed the Browns mulitple leads, maybe the Bengals try and run it all day.

I know this is tacky, but I promise this is the last time.

Pouncey.

As for Rogers, the Bengals used to control players like him by washing him away using heavy formations, overshifts, and directional blocking techniques. And they could manage all of that using players who weren't physically gifted. The shift back into more traditional blocking schemes has resulted in the lack of pure overall talent on the O-line becoming exposed. Worse, the lack of talent can be exploited both inside and especially outside at RT....where Roland is an unqualified disaster as a pass blocker.

[HairOnFire]

Tampa Bay is 28th in the league in defending the run. Brat better come out and smashmouth these guys, or I'll lose what little respect I have left for him.

I co-sign COB's posts and will be subscribing to his newsletter.

[ArmyBengal]

As for Rogers, the Bengals used to control players like him by washing him away using heavy formations, overshifts, and directional blocking techniques. And they could manage all of that using players who weren't physically gifted. The shift back into more traditional blocking schemes has resulted in the lack of pure overall talent on the O-line becoming exposed. Worse, the lack of talent can be exploited both inside and especially outside at RT....where Roland is an unqualified disaster as a pass blocker.

This is the camp I'm FIRMLY entrenched in.

[cincyhokie]

I just don't think it's going to be as easy to run on teams this year...simply because "we did it last year". Every year is different, every team changes.

Yeah, but they're not running the ball very well precisely because they willingly changed from what they had worked so well the year before. And there's the rub because they didn't have to change their identity. Rather, they wanted to. Or if you prefer, they needed to in order to take the next step....from pretender to contender. But last time I checked the playoffs were several months away, right? So maybe, just maybe, it isn't the brightest idea to open the new season by ignoring a proven power running attack while focusing on a passing game built upon newcomers and a revamped playbook.

For years the Bengals have been behind the curve in being out schemed.

Perhaps. But I'm reminded how the two most maligned coaches on the Bengals staff managed to outscheme their rivals last season using changes to the O-line and TE position. Neither can I forget how both of those successful changes were in fact abandoned this offseason, despite assurances to the contrary, and were in fact replaced almost completely by the previously delayed total overhaul of the TE position. So to those of you who claim nothing has changed I'll counter by saying that almost everything has changed, from the players involved to the role they play and how those changes impact an offensive line manned almost entirely by Sluggo types.

They add Gresham and other threats who have improved the offense. Can Brat use what he has?

To the first point...to date they've only improved on the stat page. On the scoreboard they're actually worse. In fact, they're practically inept on 3rd down and in the Red Zone, the very two things that all of the changes should have upgraded most, but haven't. And to the last point, no, he can't use what he has. And if Cedric Benson's lack of work isn't proof enough for you....consider Bernard Scott's role in this offense. Because he doesn't seem to have one anymore. Somebody else is getting his opportunities.

Who knows...even forgetting the fact that Shaun Rogers wasn't stepping on Cook's head all game, if the Bengal's defense wouldn't have allowed the Browns mulitple leads, maybe the Bengals try and run it all day.

I know this is tacky, but I promise this is the last time.

Pouncey.

As for Rogers, the Bengals used to control players like him by washing him away using heavy formations, overshifts, and directional blocking techniques. And they could manage all of that using players who weren't physically gifted. The shift back into more traditional blocking schemes has resulted in the lack of pure overall talent on the O-line becoming exposed. Worse, the lack of talent can be exploited both inside and especially outside at RT....where Roland is an unqualified disaster as a pass blocker.

I think alot of us have forgotten how much the Bengals struggled after that second win against Baltimore. Save the win in Pittsburgh, the team looked flat on offense the second half of the season and really did not run the ball well at all...except for teams such as Oakland, Cleveland, and Kansas City.

Sooooooo.......what were stuck with is an offense that overachieved admirably with the overachieving offensive line. Then they play some of the big boys at the end of the year, SD, Minn, NYJ and get their asses handed to them because the "smash mouth" the Bengals ran only works against the likes of some bad to mediocre teams and the 9-7 versions of the Ravens and Steelers. But didn't versus the Texans, Raiders, and Broncos.

Sorry, there it is.

My stance is that the offense HAS improved overall. Can they use what they have to win games. Some of it's running, some of it's passing. I think alot of it rests in a gameplan that actually attempts to get a lead any means necessary....not the 7 points in the first quarter crap we've seen thus far this year.

I don't think that last year's play is going to cut it this year. I also don't think that this year's play will cut it either, passing or running. But this offense has MORE than enough talent to figure out something with the talent of this defense to be a 10-6 team.

Bottom line: The coaching f**king sucks.

[volcom69]

Tampa Bay is 28th in the league in defending the run. Brat better come out and smashmouth these guys, or I'll lose what little respect I have left for him.

I co-sign COB's posts and will be subscribing to his newsletter.

Count me as subscribing to this as well. Until this team gets back to what they did last year im just not seeing great things happening. Bengals need to start punching guys in the mouth, they got away from playing physical like they did last year. Instead they are now playing soft on offense, and on defense. They need to run the ball to keep the defense on the sideline, because i think we have all seen that maybe the defense isnt as great as maybe we thought they would be.

Brat needs to quite over thinking everything, who cares how mad TO, and Chad gets.....RUN THE BALL, AND THEN RUN IT SOME MORE!

[volcom69]

I just don't think it's going to be as easy to run on teams this year...simply because "we did it last year". Every year is different, every team changes.

Yeah, but they're not running the ball very well precisely because they willingly changed from what they had worked so well the year before. And there's the rub because they didn't have to change their identity. Rather, they wanted to. Or if you prefer, they needed to in order to take the next step....from pretender to contender. But last time I checked the playoffs were several months away, right? So maybe, just maybe, it isn't the brightest idea to open the new season by ignoring a proven power running attack while focusing on a passing game built upon newcomers and a revamped playbook.

For years the Bengals have been behind the curve in being out schemed.

Perhaps. But I'm reminded how the two most maligned coaches on the Bengals staff managed to outscheme their rivals last season using changes to the O-line and TE position. Neither can I forget how both of those successful changes were in fact abandoned this offseason, despite assurances to the contrary, and were in fact replaced almost completely by the previously delayed total overhaul of the TE position. So to those of you who claim nothing has changed I'll counter by saying that almost everything has changed, from the players involved to the role they play and how those changes impact an offensive line manned almost entirely by Sluggo types.

They add Gresham and other threats who have improved the offense. Can Brat use what he has?

To the first point...to date they've only improved on the stat page. On the scoreboard they're actually worse. In fact, they're practically inept on 3rd down and in the Red Zone, the very two things that all of the changes should have upgraded most, but haven't. And to the last point, no, he can't use what he has. And if Cedric Benson's lack of work isn't proof enough for you....consider Bernard Scott's role in this offense. Because he doesn't seem to have one anymore. Somebody else is getting his opportunities.

Who knows...even forgetting the fact that Shaun Rogers wasn't stepping on Cook's head all game, if the Bengal's defense wouldn't have allowed the Browns mulitple leads, maybe the Bengals try and run it all day.

I know this is tacky, but I promise this is the last time.

Pouncey.

As for Rogers, the Bengals used to control players like him by washing him away using heavy formations, overshifts, and directional blocking techniques. And they could manage all of that using players who weren't physically gifted. The shift back into more traditional blocking schemes has resulted in the lack of pure overall talent on the O-line becoming exposed. Worse, the lack of talent can be exploited both inside and especially outside at RT....where Roland is an unqualified disaster as a pass blocker.

I think alot of us have forgotten how much the Bengals struggled after that second win against Baltimore. Save the win in Pittsburgh, the team looked flat on offense the second half of the season and really did not run the ball well at all...except for teams such as Oakland, Cleveland, and Kansas City.

Sooooooo.......what were stuck with is an offense that overachieved admirably with the overachieving offensive line. Then they play some of the big boys at the end of the year, SD, Minn, NYJ and get their asses handed to them because the "smash mouth" the Bengals ran only works against the likes of some bad to mediocre teams and the 9-7 versions of the Ravens and Steelers. But didn't versus the Texans, Raiders, and Broncos.

Sorry, there it is.

My stance is that the offense HAS improved overall. Can they use what they have to win games. Some of it's running, some of it's passing. I think alot of it rests in a gameplan that actually attempts to get a lead any means necessary....not the 7 points in the first quarter crap we've seen thus far this year.

I don't think that last year's play is going to cut it this year. I also don't think that this year's play will cut it either, passing or running. But this offense has MORE than enough talent to figure out something with the talent of this defense to be a 10-6 team.

Bottom line: The coaching f**king sucks.

You would figure that the coaches would have seen how bad the o-line struggled at last years end, and would maybe do something about it?

Carson had 1 good game so far this year, but im not sold he is back, but with this o-line we may never know. Unitl Marvin decides to shake things up on the line, i dont see this team going very far.

Im not sold on the defense either, they seem to be lacking something.....pass rush! I still dont get how they let Hillis run for that first at the end of the game, i just dot get it.

I will agree that coaching sucks, you would think guys would improve, but i have seen little improvement from the team thus far.

[cincyhokie]

You would figure that the coaches would have seen how bad the o-line struggled at last years end, and would maybe do something about it?

Carson had 1 good game so far this year, but im not sold he is back, but with this o-line we may never know. Unitl Marvin decides to shake things up on the line, i dont see this team going very far.

Im not sold on the defense either, they seem to be lacking something.....pass rush! I still dont get how they let Hillis run for that first at the end of the game, i just dot get it.

I will agree that coaching sucks, you would think guys would improve, but i have seen little improvement from the team thus far.

I will agree that the Bengals should have spent more effort improving the offensive line. Some people keep talking about Pouncey and Iupati as if they were around when the Bengals selected at #21.

However, we didn't improve the offensive line. That's done for this season at least.

What did improve on this offense is the passing options. TO, Shipley, Gresham.

The Bengals can still pass the ball against the best teams. Use that improved passing offense to soften up the defense to open the run. You still want to use and get the best out of the running game at the appropriate times.

Against weaker teams, just run it on them.

The Bengals can't control what they didn't do in the offseason, they can only conrtol how they run their offense in future games.

[HairOnFire]

I think alot of us have forgotten how much the Bengals struggled after that second win against Baltimore. Save the win in Pittsburgh, the team looked flat on offense the second half of the season and really did not run the ball well at all...except for teams such as Oakland, Cleveland, and Kansas City.

The current version of of the Bengals probably can't beat any of those teams....except for Baltimore.

Sooooooo.......what were stuck with is an offense that overachieved admirably with the overachieving offensive line.

No, what we're stuck with is a new offense desperately attempting to become something it's not built to be. All of the previously mentioned overachieving stuff was tossed in the trash months ago.

Sorry, there it is.

Don't apologize. I know Smashball is self limiting in some ways. But by the same token I'm not going to apologize for a sweep of the division and a playoff berth...which was achieved even though the Bengals had one of the lowest ranked passing attacks in the NFL. Because that's the standard we're trying to match or better, right?

Point blank, if you want to justify the switch to pass first then a good place to start might be by demonstrating how a more wide open attack results in more wins. Or failing that, how about demonstrating how the more wide open scheme produces more points or better success on 3rd down. Yet we've seen none of that to date. Just improved passing stats and flashes of something better in the future. Meanwhile, lowly Cleveland physically whips this team from start to finish.