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Let's have a talk about the offensive line

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Bengals are bullish on Micheal Jordan.

Latest Bengals.com feature claims he is a force waiting to happen. 

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I would love him to be a "Force" on the o-line.

I wish I knew what the coaches know about the o-line for 2020 and what they see.
I'm willing to take the wait and see approach with it and hope to see great improvement this season.

For what it's worth, I was thinking that whenever you hear about the great QB's, people always say things like, "They make everyone around them better".
I have always kind of attributed that to skill players, specifically WR's, and never really gave much thought to the o-line.
It would be interesting to look at (translated... i'm not doing it) how the o-lines of some of the best QB's were rated ?

I suppose Burrow could come in and make the o-line concerns (from a fan standpoint) absolutely a mute point and I would love that.
I simply don't want that additional burden to be placed upon his shoulders as a rookie and I hope the team continues to address the position moving forward.

I am still crazy excited about the season this year and hope it goes off as planned.

 

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The oline is a big question mark just like the whole season is.  Can Oline protect Joe?  Then is Joe going to be able to play QB at the NFL level?  The defense are the new additions plus the young LB’s going to be able to stop the opposing team offense? So to me the whole team including the coaching staff are huge question marks. Time will tell? Hell is there even going to be a season this year? Who knows at this point. 

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We’ve seen our pass rushing assets render ineffective by targets that come open quickly underneath, running attack and poor tackling. 
 

AJ staying healthy and coming back just as dangerous is a big key because there is less press coverage against him.

Ross being a threat wouldn’t hurt either. 

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30 minutes ago, AMPHAR said:

Ross being a threat wouldn’t hurt either. 

Ross being anything other than hurt wouldn't hurt either.

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Not for nothing, that G cut from NO seems like he would be swell .

akso , I am drunk posting,

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Warford is a guy I wish they would have pursued 3 seasons ago after Zeitler left in FA. 
 

I wonder what the story is with him?  3 pro bowl years with Saints. 
 

Would be a homecoming of sorts, played at UK and to high school about 2 hours away from Cincinnati.

On paper it’s a major upgrade. 

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Instead of making a serious run at Walford, the Bengals' would typically use the Dalton cash to re-sign someone (i.e. Mixon).  I can' t imagine who else has that much cap space left? (I have no idea)

Beyond just cap relief, not sure what the issue is yet either, if any, with him.  

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/surprise-release-of-saints-g-larry-warford-puts-3-time-pro-bowler-on-open-market-220636405.html

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Intel I gathered from Saints boards.    Andrus Peat (LG) got extended to a huge deal (5 years 57mil)

Last year the Saints traded up to grab McCoy (C from Texas A&M).   This year they drafted Ruiz (C from Michigan) at 24.

So one of them are getting bumped to RG.   Sean Peyton had a quote saying something like they didn't draft Ruiz to sit.

A writer from the Athletic says it shouldn't be surprise Warford got cut because the Saints made it a priority to improve interior protection for Brees.  Apparently Warford gave up a key sack in the playoff loss.

Most Saints fans on the board wanted his cap room to sign another FA.   Some were hopeful they could have traded him and a few wanted to keep him for depth.

I say bring his ass in and cut whoever you have to.    

I just watch our late season "improving" line vs. the Dolphins.   Dolphins recorded the fewest sacks in the league last year.    We gave up 4 sacks and a ton of pressure.  The offense sucked up until 30 seconds left when they pumped 16 points on the board to tie it.     We need improvements across the board with this line.   Dalton was not the weakest link on the team, not an elite QB either, so I understand and wanted a drafted QB.   But when they try to run a normal offense it's jail break on the QB.   Dalton these past 3 years saved a bunch of sacks and hits.

To ask Burrow to come in here a be Houdini as a rookie is too big of a risk to what they are trying to do.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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At the same time they are asking Turner to be David Copperfield turning too many late rounders and young players into viable starters right away.  

By my count:

Hopkins - Un-drafted (Beat the odds already an got a contract extension)

Williams - 1st rounder (Has to come up big)

Jordan - 4th rounder (Wasn't very good at all last year; He has to come up big this year)

Then it's  2 starting jobs and a key swing tackle spot coming from this group:

Filo - 2nd rounder (Key back up for the Cowboys)

Hart - 7th rounder (Beat the odds, getting contract extension and is firmly planted as bottom tier tackle)

Johnson - Un-drafted - Need him to come up big.

Price - 1st flat out bust at this point need some magic beans.

Redmond - Un-drafted  beating the odds a little still with the team has started some.

Prince - 6th rounder

Hakeem - 6th rounder

 2 spots Filo and Hopkins have decent NFL film and performance (NOT All Pro, decent).

 2 guys I think could get cut (Price and Hart) and never enter a team's camp as a starting option.

I just don't see how they stand pat with this group.  Adding a Pro Bowl guard even if he's on his downside helps tremendously. 

 

 

 

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Absolutely NO reason they shouldn’t be bringing Warford in. While I would prefer a RT, you can’t tell me that a guy coming off 3 straight pro bowl seasons with a winning franchise isn’t worth more than the hope and prayer players we are offering up.

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Very much worth a look.  Hard to tell, though, what Mike’s doing these days.

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Yeah Walford would really stabilize that line for Burrow and give them much-needed vet leadership etc..., I don't see it happening here, not in the Bengals' character to be that proactive when an opportunity arises.  If they signed him, that would make things a lot more interesting  next season.  Go from having a below-average o-line at best, to possibly an outstanding one if Jonah works out early.  I really don't know why they wouldnt' be interested since they didn't address the G position almost at all in the draft and only signed Sua, who has never been on Walford's level, and could just as easily be used as good depth, which they still also need at G.

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Saw on another board that had tweet naming the Bengals with 4 other teams showing interest in Waford.

So here’s to hoping! 

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Unfortunately that twitter account’s track record is about as good as the Bengals in the 90s.

Part of it may be the restrictions on bringing players in but at the end of the day it looks like the coaches are just stuck on this lineup.

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I went looking for reports about the Bengals and it's all a bunch of hoping or connecting of dots.
I've seen nothing of any real substance to give thought to it possibly happening.
How bringing in a player that would immediately be the best o-lineman on the roster, would be a bad thing confuses me greatly.

Such is life as a Bengals fan.

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Interesting look from the official site's article about the overhaul of the o-line.  And it's very apparent they seem set with what they have in the building.

When talking about OT's at the Senior Bowl, Turner had this to say about Adeniji.
"He was the best tackle in that game and separated himself from everyone there. No question."

While that may be him talking up his own draft pick, if taken seriously, that's pretty impressive when considering the other OT's in that game that were drafted before him.
Josh Jones
Matt Peart
Charlie Heck
Colton McKivitz

https://www.bengals.com/news/bengals-o-line-overhaul-looks-to-finish

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This is from Great Blue North draft report: 

As a whole they weren't impressed very much regarding O-line: 

Quote

There are a number of ways one could joke about the very disappointing play of the offensive line during last weekend’s Senior Bowl game from “they really were offensive” to “the Big uglies were indeed ugly!” All joking aside, any team hoping to find some hidden gems along the offensive line for the 2020 draft had to have been disappointed by what they are seeing on the game tapes for the unit.

Quote

Meanwhile, Adeniji at times looked like the best offensive linemen in the game as he was exceptionally quick off the snap, showed good balance and strength, and nice athleticism in space, but did have a tendency to drop his head and lunge on a couple of plays that resulted in complete whiffs.

Quote

A pretty good case can be made that other than Houston’s Jones, there wasn’t an OT in Mobile, at least one who played in the actual Senior Bowl game this year, who looked the part of a future NFL starter at the position.

 

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Jim Turner speaks (really REALLY good interview conducted by Jay Morrison in the Athletic):

https://theathletic.com/1814704/2020/05/14/scrutiny-pressure-and-cheeseburgers-a-qa-with-bengals-o-line-coach-jim-turner/?source=emp_shared_article

(you all know his hire pissed me off -but Morrison elicits some answers here that at least make me understand better why ZT brought his baggage onto the team - still not thrilled about him being the coach but at least have made some peace with it)

Quote

The front office made linebacker a priority this offseason, signing Josh Bynes in free agency and using two of their first four draft picks and three of
seven overall on the position, but it decided to pretty much stand by the offensive line as constructed. The Bengals cut starting right guard John Miller
and signed Cowboys backup Xavier Su’a-Filo, and in the draft, they waited until the sixth round to address the group, adding Kansas tackle Hakeem
Adeniji.

Everyone in the organization who fielded questions this offseason, from Taylor to offensive coordinator Brian Callahan to director of player personnel
Duke Tobin, expressed faith and confidence in the group. Offensive line coach Jim Turner doubled down on that notion Thursday in a conversation with
The Athletic.

In addition to praising his players, Turner talked about the scrutiny the offensive line is facing and the pressure resting at his feet. He also touched on the
challenges of remote workouts, offered a Jonah Williams-Mike Tyson analogy, discussed the soap opera that was the Cordy Glenn saga and previewed
the battle at right tackle between incumbent Bobby Hart and 2019 waiver-wire acquisition Fred Johnson.

I hate to start with an old dog/new trick analogy, but given what’s happening in the world, how are you adapting to the technology you’ve had to rely on
for the remote offseason?

If Coach Taylor were to be put under the gun right now and rate the coaches’ ability to deal with technology, I would probably be bottom on the list. But
if I were to give myself a grade, I would probably say I get a B-minus. I’ve been working at it. I’ve done a good job of learning how to deal with this
Zoom and how to do this stuff on the run. You have no choice. You’ve got to adapt to it. My whole computer setup is in my cellar, so I’m sitting here
staring at a hot water heater and my ping pong table. But time-wise, it’s been good. You don’t spend any time on the road going to work and coming
home from work. And you don’t have anybody around you. There’s never a distraction. So you actually get a lot of work done. Your family could be a
distraction if you put your computer in the wrong place. I initially had it up in the kitchen, and it was, like all of a sudden I’ll see a cheeseburger go by
and then I’m dreaming about cheeseburgers. Or I’ll see my son walking through with his (hockey) stick and he’ll say, “Hey, Dad. Let’s go outside.” Of
course, you can’t turn that down. So there’s a lot of distractions. That’s why I locked myself in the cellar and it’s actually worked. Distractions are very
limited.

I guess the meetings are one thing, but it seems like the O-line is more hands-on than other position groups, where the instruction needs to be hands-on.

You’re right about that.

So how difficult is it not being able to do that in this environment?

The bottom line is every team is under the same constraints. That being said, I guess the teams that have more veteran players are sitting in a better
position, but personally, I’m really excited about this group. If I had a group that I didn’t trust or had a group that I didn’t know well, then I would worry
about it. But they’re a bunch of guys that are going to work hard. It’s like I said to the players, it’s almost like you’re going back to high school. The
good thing is if there are 15 other teams and two of them are in our division and they’re able to work out right now and we weren’t, then it would be a
problem. We’d be at a disadvantage. But I just feel good about our guys. I have no question that these guys are working. On video, I can’t totally tell,
but I can see that they’re in shape. And I know they’re shooting straight with us. And most of these guys work out all year long anyway. They’re just not
getting the practice reps they’d get. But again, because every team is going through it, I feel confident that we’ll be ready.

There was a lot of scrutiny on your group last year and into this offseason, and it feels like so much of the team’s success in 2020 will hinge on how the
offensive line performs and how well it protects the huge investment that is Joe Burrow. Do you feel any pressure because of that?

No. And I’ll tell you why. When you show up for these jobs — and I’ve had about nine of these jobs — you try and build something. You’re the head
coach and general manager of your position. Of course, there are people above your head that help you pick the players and design the scheme and so
on, but I look at it from that standpoint. So I don’t expect that on the day that I show up it will be the picture you’re looking for. So you begin to build.
And if you listen to every piece of scrutiny on the way up and you’re affected by that, then you’re really not going to do well at any job. Every job, no
matter what it is, you have a vision when you get there of what you want, what you expect.

Look at Jonah Williams and Mike Jordan. I’m part of the group that brought both of those guys in here. And those are guys that we want to surround
ourselves with. But there’s also guys that I didn’t bring in, like Trey Hopkins. He’s a guy that you want to surround yourself with. He’s part of a vision,
like Coach Taylor always says, a team that’s built around character. I didn’t bring in Alex Redmond, and when we first got here, did me and him see
things the same exact way? No. But after spending time with him and watching him work and watching the effect he had when he came into the game
last year against the Rams, you can just see the effect that he had on that game. So he’s another guy that we really like and think can help us win. And
Bobby Hart is probably the most scrutinized player of all. But you really can’t argue with the fact that Bobby did a good job last year. I mean, Bobby
chopped his penalty numbers way down, his sack numbers were way down and he had a good year.

Did we destroy it last year? No, we didn’t. We struggled at left tackle. If you have a major problem at one position, the one you can’t have a major
problem at is left tackle. So you’ve got to do what you can to make that position right. That thing was a soap opera the whole season. We know Day 1
this year Jonah is going to play left tackle. It’s almost as if we got Joe Burrow and Jonah Williams in the same year. I feel great about Jonah (who
missed his rookie year after tearing a labrum in April 2019). He’s so apprehensive right now about getting to practice and being ready because he’s
never played in a game. He’s a first-round pick but he’s never played in a game. Joe Burrow’s going to have apprehension too, but it’s going to be over
soon because he’s going to be in that first game and see exactly how he fits. Jonah’s been sitting on this now for what, 13 months. But it will be going
on 16 months by the time he plays in his first NFL game. So there’s a whole set of anxiety there for the kid. As the coach, you’re trying to help him
through that. But I love the fact that he is anxious about it because it just shows how much he loves it and wants to be great.

Even though it’s like you got two first-round picks this year, I’m wondering if you view Jonah as a rookie given that he didn’t play last year. Or because
he was around for all of the meetings and all of the practices and actually got to participate in the practices in December, should he not be viewed as a
rookie?

That’s a good point. I do view him as a rookie for all the reasons I already mentioned, but at the same time, he is so smart and he works so hard, going
into the first game, I’m not going to be apprehensive about him. I’m not worried about him at all. Mentally, we are ahead of last year obviously because
he’s prepared for the scheme. I feel great about him being ready to go. It’s like I told him, you can never read the paper and you can never listen to the
radio. When you’re playing your first couple games, you’re not going to be as good as your third and fourth games, and your fifth and sixth game. Your
growth is going to go through the roof.

It’s not like boxing. I was in college when Mike Tyson was coming up, and they didn’t put him against the heavyweight champ in his first 10
professional fights. They groomed him. Well, you don’t get to do that in the NFL. You’ve got to line up against the champ every week. But the bottom
line is, he’s ready to do that. We’re going to have a young quarterback that’s going to be energetic, and the two of them are going to go into this together.
I’m happy about it. I wouldn’t want any other player to come in here. I wouldn’t take anybody else over Jonah Williams. I want that guy to come in and
play for us, and I know he will.

You’re going to have another young, mostly unproven guy next to him in Jordan. Any concerns about a lack of experience on that side of the line?

Just size-wise and maturity-wise, Mike will have grown so much this past year. He was so much better in the last game compared to the first game. It
was incredible. And he wasn’t bad in the first game he played, either. He played a good amount of football last year. Mike played 667 snaps, and most
of those were at left guard. He had 14 at right guard and one at tight end. But he got a lot of reps. That’s a decent amount. You’re talking about six to
seven games’ worth of reps right there. So he’s not coming in off fresh off the street.

The other good thing for Mike is he doesn’t have to hit a grand slam his first time out. We’ve got Alex Redmond. We’ve got Billy Price. You can’t
forget about him being a factor in there. And we signed Xavier Su’a-Filo, who can really play. So I feel good that we’ll be ready. If Jonah and Mike are
the starting left tackle and starting left guard in the first game, we’re going to be ready to play. There’s a sense of excitement with the new quarterback
coming in obviously with the character he brings and the toughness that he’s shown. This is going to be a gritty group, and I’m looking forward to it.

In addition to Su’a-Filo, the only other newcomer is Adeniji. Brian Callahan said that because Adeniji played for the other team at the Senior Bowl, he
used the lunch breaks to chat him up and get to know him better. Were you part off those conversations?

I didn’t sit down with him at lunch, but I spent a lot of time with him. When I went down (to the Senior Bowl), I thought I had him on my team, and
when I got there, they told me I didn’t have him on my team, which pissed me off because I liked him on tape before I even went down there. I had
singled him out. I thought he was the best lineman there. When I thought I had him on my team, I was fired up. But I ended up getting less time with
him.

I did get to meet with him for a good 45 minutes to an hour when we switched lines. I had slated to spend a little bit of time with each of them, but he
just jumped out at me when I was talking to him. A lot of times you like a guy, and then when you talk to them, you realize he doesn’t have the
character or he’s not the kind of guy that’s going to fit into this offense. That happens a lot. But when I sat with him, it was the exact opposite. I loved
talking to him. There’s a youthfulness to him. He just loves football like he’s a child. This is a game played by grown men, but in the end, it’s a game.
And to be great at this game, you have to love it.

One of the things in your business and mine is being able to read people, right? A lot of people are full of it. They’re going to tell you a story they want
you to hear in your business. And in my business, they’re going to tell me they’re who they think I want them to be so that I’ll take them, and then when
I get them, they’re not who they said they were. A lot of guys try to paint the rosy picture. They all take classes and their agents are telling them what to
say and all this other stuff, and it’s a bunch of crap. You just want to know who a guy is. And when I was sitting there talking to Hakeem, I really got a
picture of who he was. I really love the kid and what he brings to the table. I couldn’t believe he was still there in the sixth round — didn’t think he’d be
there after the fourth round, to be honest with you. I even had him slated higher than that, but I didn’t think he’d ever last after the fourth. Usually a
sixth- or seventh-round pick, it’s hit or miss. You’re like, “OK, it doesn’t matter if he makes it or not.” You don’t know in those rounds. But I’m pretty
sure he’s going to do well here, to be honest with you. I think he’s going to give us a little depth and he’s going to compete.

Not to discount his chances, but it feels like the biggest question is going to be that battle between Hart and Johnson at right tackle. How eager are you to see how that plays out?


I love that battle right there. I know Bobby will step up to the plate, and I know Freddy’s going to be right there. Both of them have talent, and Freddy’s got size and Bobby’s got experience. So that’s a good matchup. Bobby Hart is probably the most scrutinized player we have. But you really can’t argue
with the fact that Bobby did a good job last year. I mean, Bobby chopped his penalty numbers way down, his sack numbers were way down and he had
a good year.

I think this group understands that we will bench you. We will sit you down if the guy behind you is better than you. It’s not a big tough guy act or
anything. It’s real. We will play the best five guys. And I think we’ve proven that since we’ve been here. They’re going to compete at every position.

In the end, people say, “How do you decide who to pick?” It really comes down to it being this simple: You watch the tape. You can almost count the
blocks. Like, in other sports, it’s easier to measure. One guy has this many base hits, the other guy has that many. When you’re looking at the line, it’s
harder to do that. But it really comes down to that. If you block more guys at this position than the guy behind you, then you play. If he blocks more
than you, then he plays. It comes down to who has more production. I don’t have a lot of sayings of that kind of stuff, but I do have one thing that I say
to the players consistency, and that’s, “It’s all about production.” You’ve got to block people. And if you can’t, we’ve got to find somebody that can. It’s
that simple.

You guys had a hard time finding that production last year with everything that happened, with Jonah going down to the soap opera you mentioned to ripping up the running game midseason. Where does last year rank among your most challenging seasons as a coach?


I think it’s safe to say it was probably the most challenging of all of our careers. At least it’s in the top two. It was the most challenging of mine, that’s
for sure. The great thing about it is, we work for a guy that had the balls to rip up the run game and just say, “Hey, it’s not working. Let’s move on. Let’s
do something.” That takes some guts when you’re the head coach and you’re under some serious scrutiny. If that didn’t work when we did that, then
what? It was a great time to do it. He had the guys to do it. We did it. And you could see when we ended the season — believe it or not, as hard as it was
— we actually ended it on a good note. To end it the way we did, running the ball the way we did, we came out of that tough season feeling like we’re
headed in the right direction.

Lastly, while we’re talking about challenges, these last few months have been that way for everybody. What are you most looking forward to doing
when everything reopens?

You can only look at your hot water heater for so long. So I’m looking forward to just getting back to work and being in that room. You can really feel
the growth when you can see the growth. And so, when you’re sitting there just talking to them every day, yeah, that’s great. But you can’t see it and
you can’t watch it develop. So just being able to have hands-on and watch them develop and see it all come together and see them gel with the new
quarterback and the new receiver we have and our new defense, it’s exciting. I really look forward to just getting back in the office and getting it going.

 

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Watching a lot of previous seasons during the shut down.     It's pretty clear IF they could sit Dalton in shotgun.   Then pre-snap Dalton could identify soft coverage the offense wasn't horrendous.

Seattle gave this look repeatedly through out the whole game and not to any surprise was probably their best offensive performance given the level of competition.     When teams were able to force Dalton out of the quick read and fire the line's inability to protect became an issue.

For this year it's going to be necessary to get Mixon going early.    Of course AJ/Ross must be on the field or available.    I think those factors will give a young QB easier coverage reads and help protect a line weakness.  

Then you have to have Williams lock down one side.   Jordan really has to improve in pass pro.    

I don't care what Turner says about Hart above.    The fact is they talked Hart up last year.   Then supposedly he played good last year.   But he's in a position battle with a guy that was un drafted and a wavier wire pick up?   Seems kinda odd if Hart really and truly had a good season.     I think they give up way to much ground on the edge at an alarming speed.   They struggle to flatten the rush or widen them too often. 

 

 

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I was going back and reading some things about Burrow from his senior season.
#1 Because I was crazy bored this weekend.
#2 Because I was looking for anything I may have missed or not given much thought to the first time I saw it.

One thing that jumped back out at me, was the following:

Quote

I have nothing else to add, but wanted to include, in its entirety, this fascinating explanation Burrow gave the NFL Network’s Daniel Jeremiah for his one-year improvement this fall. Jeremiah relayed the anecdote to NBC’s Peter King in King’s most-recent must-read "Football Morning in America" column.

“Most grad transfers transfer in the spring. [Burrow] said, ‘I got to LSU after the freshmen had already reported for full camp.’ So you talk about trying to learn everything in a heartbeat and try to get to know your teammates, and then plug in and be ready to play. That’s the first part of it. Second part, he hadn’t played much football in the previous three years. There was some rust. Okay, this makes sense. And then schematically, and this is the big one, they were in a lot of seven-man protection in that offense last year. Burrow, his greatest gift, and you can see it this year when you watch him, is he has the vision to be able to take a snapshot of the entire field, to see everything, to process, and to throw accurately. Well, when you’re in seven-man protection and you limit the number of guys that can get out on a route, you’re limiting the answers you can give somebody. He was handicapped by them trying to mass-protect him. There’s no room for him to use his athletic ability to take off and go if you want. There’s no room for him to slide around, more around, find windows. It was just a congested brand of football.

“And then, you look at this year. He gets [passing-game coordinator] Joe Brady in there. He becomes a master of the offense. At the beginning of the season, they were in a bunch of six-man protection, which he’s playing really well. And he said eventually Joe Brady said in week three or four, ‘Let’s just go five-man protection. Let’s get everybody out into the route.’ When they did that, [he] completed about 80 percent from that point on.

“His super-power is his ability to see the entire field, to work through progressions, and then throw the ball accurately. So they kind of unlocked that super-power this last year. And the rest is history.”

It makes me wonder how the Bengals are going to approach the protection they give to Burrow schematically ??
I would guess that what they did last year with Dalton and Finley would be a poor example of what they may do this season, but am interested.
I can't help but wonder if this has gone into how they view the current batch of o-linemen that most of us are unhappy with.

Kinda, sort of related is, how does the TE relate to that thought process as well ??
I've been kicking around the idea of upgrading the position with a trade for OJ Howard (sounds like he could be had cheap)...

Something to discuss with nothing else going on.

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“You can only look at your hot water heater for so long.” - Jim Turner

What he meant to say was “you can only look at your hot water heater for so long (until you realize itwould give Bobby Hart a pretty good run for his money at the right tackle spot).”

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