General 2024 Training Camp Thread

[COB]

6 minutes ago, HoosierCat said:

Play, don’t play, I really don’t give a shit anymore.

My feelings exactly.  It’s stale.  

[Stripes]

Zac's comments about it pretty well suggest that it's more hold-in stuff.

I am ignoring Chase drama until I see him on [or off] the field Week 1.

[volcom69]

Yea this whole Chase crap is becoming so annoying anymore, count me into the crowd of I don’t give a shit anymore. 

[ArmyBengal]

As much as I think it may weaken the foundation, thoughts of what we could get in trade start to creep in.

[ArmyBengal]

Switching WR gears...  I am honestly pretty intrigued with the thought of Yoshi getting more snaps from the slot position.
While thinking the slot is going to be a carousel of players, to include Gesicki, Yoshi stands to have a much improved season.

[AMPHAR]

I see both sides. 

Chase can realistically with no extension can expect $50m for the next 3 years.  Finish rookie deal, get tagged.   He would shoulder performance risk to be good enough to get the tag so the last estimated $25m or so.   Meanwhile the 2nd tier contracts would get him $70m+ for those same 3 seasons.   Assuming he's wanting to be in the JJ/Lamb range you are looking at $95m+.

That's a big difference.   Of course anyone would want to try to grab that cash right now.   Avoid worrying about injury.  Avoid worrying about your numbers etc.

Flip side for the Bengals you are asking them to pay $45m+ more on faith you'll eventually hit the performance standards of the top guys and stay there.

Fans are saying the price will only go up.  Will it?   Who's left in the WR market that hasn't done a deal that could top the market?  Are teams going to hand Higgins or Ayiuk deals that beat JJ and Lamb?  

Its hard to really know without knowing where the Bengals are at the next 3 years in their offer.  You'd have to assume its close since he actually returned to practice for 1 day and has been present the entire time.   Then not practicing? So there must of been a breakdown.

[AMPHAR]

6 minutes ago, ArmyBengal said:

As much as I think it may weaken the foundation, thoughts of what we could get in trade start to creep in.

There's going to be approx 20 WRs taken in the top 150 picks.   I'd guess about half will record 1,000 yard in their first 3 seasons.   Dirt cheap contracts in comparison.

Bengals are complete opposite from OL drafting when it comes to WR drafting.  So what they have to weigh IF they trade is how confident they are in Burrow pulling a Mahomes.   Mahomes WR aren't good.  How confident they are in finding replacement WR.   Is worth having 1 WR that can get 1,600 and suck up $30m+ in cap room or trying to find a group that can collectively replace that 1 guy.

I'd rather pay Chase, but he sits out then move on from him.   Chase needs a top 5 receiving season to justify any of the money he'll get paid or demand, IMO.

 

[ArmyBengal]

1 hour ago, AMPHAR said:

I see both sides. 

Chase can realistically with no extension can expect $50m for the next 3 years.  Finish rookie deal, get tagged.   He would shoulder performance risk to be good enough to get the tag so the last estimated $25m or so.   Meanwhile the 2nd tier contracts would get him $70m+ for those same 3 seasons.   Assuming he's wanting to be in the JJ/Lamb range you are looking at $95m+.

That's a big difference.   Of course anyone would want to try to grab that cash right now.   Avoid worrying about injury.  Avoid worrying about your numbers etc. Flip side for the Bengals you are asking them to pay $45m+ more on faith you'll eventually hit the performance standards of the top guys and stay there.

Fans are saying the price will only go up.  Will it?   Who's left in the WR market that hasn't done a deal that could top the market?  Are teams going to hand Higgins or Ayiuk deals that beat JJ and Lamb?  

I don't blame any player for wanting what they are worth and Chase is worth FAR more than he's being paid this year.
I understand the risk of injury and how that could impact future earning potential.
So again, I don't blame Chase for that.  What I do blame him for is the cat and mouse bullshit we are now seeing.
Either practice and play or stay the fuck away.  It's really irritating at this point.

I think the price always goes up.  The players and agents are surely aware that the cap continues to go up and with it, so will contracts.  Look at QB's.  Anyone think Jordan Love needs to be the highest paid QB in the league at the time of his signing?  NOPE, but that's where the market is.  I could be wrong, but I'm thinking today's $32 million a year will be next year's $35 million or more.

 

[AMPHAR]

Quote

“The wide receiver market has probably hit its peak for now. I’m not paying $35 million annually if I’m a team. I get why the Vikings paid Justin. He’s their best and most popular player. It’s easier to hold this stance if you have Mahomes or Burrow as quarterbacks, but I think there is a better use of allocation to build. These young receivers are coming into the league ready.”

• “Ja’Marr Chase will try resetting the market next year. If I’m running a team, I spend money on the quarterback, offensive line, pass rushers and cornerback. I can get anyone to run routes.”

• “Watch Malik Nabers, Rome Odunze and Marvin Harrison Jr. this season. Receiver rookies are so mature as players when they come out now because of training and the seven-on-seven game. That will be felt in the market other than maybe 2-4 guys.”

• “This isn’t like quarterbacks, where the next free agent to sign resets the market. CeeDee Lamb ($34 million APY) and Tyreek Hill signed extensions for at least $30 million this offseason. Great money, but both fell below Jefferson’s extension ($35 million). Jefferson is the best receiver and will remain the highest-paid for a bit. Maybe Chase matches, but I expect a softening overall.”

some random unnamed agent/front office comments I stole from another board.   Consume for your own enjoyment.

[AMPHAR]

3 minutes ago, ArmyBengal said:

I don't blame any player for wanting what they are worth and Chase is worth FAR more than he's being paid this year.
I understand the risk of injury and how that could impact future earning potential.
So again, I don't blame Chase for that.  What I do blame him for is the cat and mouse bullshit we are now seeing.
Either practice and play or stay the fuck away.  It's really irritating at this point.

I think the price always goes up.  The players and agents are surely aware that the cap continues to go up and with it, so will contracts.  Look at QB's.  Anyone think Jordan Love needs to be the highest paid QB in the league at the time of his signing?  NOPE, but that's where the market is.  I could be wrong, but I'm thinking today's $32 million a year will be next year's $35 million or more.

 

I just assume they are close.   But I think he had to report to get a $3m bonus in August.    My thinking if there was no chance at getting a deal done before the start of the season.   Then decide IF you are in or out.   If its close then walk the line as long as you can then take the huge payday.

Impossible to say because no one really knows what is being offered.   I know this, IF I were Chase and there's 90+million for the next 3 years.  Sorry, I'm taking it even if it might be lower than JJ.

 

 

[AMPHAR]

10 minutes ago, ArmyBengal said:

I don't blame any player for wanting what they are worth and Chase is worth FAR more than he's being paid this year.
I understand the risk of injury and how that could impact future earning potential.
So again, I don't blame Chase for that.  What I do blame him for is the cat and mouse bullshit we are now seeing.
Either practice and play or stay the fuck away.  It's really irritating at this point.

I think the price always goes up.  The players and agents are surely aware that the cap continues to go up and with it, so will contracts.  Look at QB's.  Anyone think Jordan Love needs to be the highest paid QB in the league at the time of his signing?  NOPE, but that's where the market is.  I could be wrong, but I'm thinking today's $32 million a year will be next year's $35 million or more.

 

The price always goes up, true.   But before the next draft?   Is some team going to pay Higgins or Ayiuk who are the top 2 projected available 2025 Free Agents more money than JJ.    I doubt it. 

Teams could have already had both them for far less via a trade.   No one sniffed Tee.   Ayiuk is in some holding pattern.

The market for Chase isn't going to change between to today and April 2025.

 

 

[ArmyBengal]

Yeah, I don't think there was much of a sniff for Tee, not because he wasn't worth top end money, but because they would have had to given him top end money, while also giving up draft capital in the process.  I don't think I would be in favor of the Bengals doing that for another player either.  Bet if Tee has another solid season this year, someone, some team will back the bank truck up to his place.

Like I said, I could be wrong, but if the cap keeps going up, there's no way contracts go down.
Agents won't let that shit happen.  When the cap goes up by $30m, teams aren't worried about another $5m more for someone.
Most know that over the course of the next season or two, that contract is going to be viewed as a bargain.
Honestly, it's a shitty cycle.

[AMPHAR]

If the Chase contract saga carries out over a couple seasons, given the stated contract rates the Bengals would pay out less by approx $45m vs. the current JJ/Lamb contracts.    Its unlikely the Chase contract situation gets carried out that long and if it does the Bengals probably aren't paying out the JJ contract +$45m.

The most likely time frame in which this deal gets done is today through next draft.   The WR market isn't going to reset in that time frame.   The Bengals hold most of all the cards.

Chase will have some media/public opinion on his side until he misses a game.

Approx values

Chase 2024 -$4m; 2025 $21m, 2026 (franchise tag $25m??) - total approx $50m.   50% guaranteed until he gets offered the tag.

JJ - will make $96m in that same time frame 100% guaranteed.

Lamb - will make $93m in that same time frame 100% guaranteed.

The Bengals are not going to wake up next spring and see a contract that's paid a WR more than that.   The only guy possible is the one they are dealing with today.

Ayiuk would be the only wild card assuming Cleveland cleared cap room to trade for him.   But he's still more likely to come in less than Lamb/JJ.

 

 

 

 

[AMPHAR]

Aiyuk signed his deal.   Based on the description of the deal its just below St. Brown's deal.  So it didn't come close to changing Chase's market.    As always you'll have to wait for the details but if its just below St. Brown, Aiyuk can probably expect to get $65m the next 3 seasons with about $75m guaranteed.

 

[ArmyBengal]

In 4 years Aiyuk has 200 yards more than Chase. 4 less receiving TD’s. 10 more 1st down conversions. And slightly more yards per catch at 14.6 vs 13.9.

Chase has basically equaled or surpassed Aiyuk in one fewer season.

Anyone thinking Chase isn’t getting $30m plus per season just isn’t paying attention.

The report also shows that had the 49er’s not been such cheap asses, they could have had the deal at $27m per season until they waited and other players signed extensions.

Just an example of contracts going up even in a short amount of time. I get that there may not be many big deals between now and next offseason, but that price isn’t falling.

[AMPHAR]

Contracts as a whole go up as revenue rises.   Individual market's rise and fall as their performance changes.   We just saw that with Higgins in the off season coming off 700 yard season.  No one sniffed him on a franchise tag. 

Once the JJ deal was done and then the Lamb deal failed to beat it.  The top of the market was set.   IF the Aiyuk deal is truly like the St. Brown deal.   Those $$$$ are world's apart from what Chase is rumored to be asking and it won't factor into Chase at all.

The rumors were the Chase camp waited for JJ and Lamb.  Good move.   But now he shoulders most of the risk of not signing.   The Bengals have 3 years of reasonable control.  Have significant financial gain IF they drag it out to the franchise tag because they would save $45m.     From a money standpoint the Bengals have no motivation to rush.

Other hand Chase can get fined/collect whatever game checks after what holdout is.   Hope he doesn't or his QB doesn't get hurt or collect $35m+ this year and another $35m+ next year. 

You have to assume they were close considering he practiced.  It'd be foolish not to sign at this point if they are close to JJ/Lamb deal, IMO. 

Using the average per year is not a good way to look at this.  The important things are how much is guaranteed and paid out within 3 years.

 

[ArmyBengal]

In my opinion, is the lack of movement with a Higgins trade was not predicated on his performance falling in 2023.
As I mentioned before, there was no team will to give him even Michael Pittman money, while simultaneously giving up the draft capital the Bengals were asking for.  Again, Higgins will have the truck backed up this offseason by some team and it will surpass the Pittman deal.  I would place a bet on that.

While some may say, Higgins has never done "X", what he has done has been accomplished as the #2 WR playing next to Chase and in an offense with many receiving options.  I'm not going to go looking, but I would be curious how many WR's have had over 3600 yards receiving, 24 TD's and averaging more than 14 yards per catch, while at the same time playing next to another WR as talented as Chase.
He's also has had playoff success with over 450 receiving yards and another 3 TD's over two post season games.

I agree that Chase's contract will have to hinge on the fact the Bengals could control him for a period of time and I would hope that would be taken into consideration if they should happen to do a new deal this season.  Thing is, I don't expect that to happen.  While I think they should get Chase extended, I'm betting on it happening right around this time next year.

That being the case, I don't expect his overall contract, guaranteed money or per season average to be less than what we are thinking right at the moment. Not a chance the Bengals don't make him one of, if not the top paid WR in the game.  For those solely thinking stats dictate that value (I am not) it will be interesting to see how his 4 year stat totals stack up to JJ, Lamb and Aiyuk seeing as how they signed their deals after their 4th year.

In all honesty, I don't expect Chase to go anywhere.  It would shock more if that happened.
Just get him back to practicing and be ready for week 1.

[COB]

1 hour ago, ArmyBengal said:

 

Just get him back to practicing and be ready for week 1.

Ok will do.  
 

JK.  My opinion:  Mike looks at it this way.  Get Chase this year super cheap, then pay him.  
 

Chase’s agent has little leverage other than a lackadaisical Chase lolling around at practice while his teammates extol his virtues to the press.  
 

He wants top guy money.  I get it.  But the Bengals are likely saying we need financial concession in exchange for, just out of the goodness of our hearts, quintupling your salary this year when we really don’t have to do anything.  
 

Chase’s agent is likely saying my guy is equal to this other guy, pay him like other guy just got paid.  
 

But Mike and Katie  likely saying yes player is equal, but the contract situation other guy was in versus Chase’s contract situation, that part of the equation is very different. 
 

Presumably they then take their opinion of the value of just giving Chase an extra year of vet deal money and bake that into the offer.  Chase’s agent presumably is very good at both denying reality and conjuring up a self serving interpretation of every situation.  
 

So you get what we had here last week, which is the way he wants it.  Well, he gets it. I don't like it any more than you men.

[ArmyBengal]

6 minutes ago, COB said:

So you get what we had here last week, which is the way he wants it.  Well, he gets it. I don't like it any more than you men.

Some men, you just can't reach.

"Cool Hand Luke"

"Civil War" intro Guns and Roses

Well done COB !!

[COB]

Chase is in the locker room right now trying to eat 50 eggs.

[AMPHAR]

50 eggs?   I hope he had enough common sense to boil them first.  

Anyway supposedly Lap was saying they had an agreement on the "number"  but something went off.   Probably the schedule payment.

If any of that is true including the eggs.   I'd have to think he plays sooner rather than later under a new deal.

 

 

 

[TJJackson]

1 hour ago, COB said:

Chase is in the locker room right now trying to eat 50 eggs.

Does this count as practicing, or is it a protest againt the F-rated food service?

Maybe you should have him over to weed your garden, and afterwards treat him to Arbys in Kent, and have a chat?

[ArmyBengal]

So Dax earned the starting CB spot with Cam. Dude put in some work !!

[HoosierCat]

3 hours ago, ArmyBengal said:

So Dax earned the starting CB spot with Cam. Dude put in some work !!

Also Trent Brown getting the opening day start. I’m fully confident in him, but hope Mims’ injury is a fluke and not a taste of things to come.

[COB]

I’m confident Rent Brown can play well, staying healthy will be the main thing with him. If he gets knocked, hopefully Mims can learn on the job.  
 

I’m just excited the season is finally here.  If we can get out of the gate quickly for once, imagine what could happen week two in Arrowhead!