Time to begin the rebuild

[cincyhokie]

I’m going to do this thing called holding two truths at once. Yes, Palmer could be a little bitch. And he’s also saying absolute truths about the incompetency of the FO. 
 

Character assassination doesn’t remove the evidence of 29 years. Sorry.

[AMPHAR]

16 minutes ago, cincyhokie said:

Whitworth had plenty of things to say about the Bengals front office. 
 

Whatever, Katie.

Whitworth also had plenty of things to say about Palmer too.  

It is also fact he wanted multiple year deal here.  

How does any of this change the fact this organization went to the playoffs 5 straight seasons immediately following Plamer’s departure? 

Pretty much disproving his point of view.  Clearly he was wrong.

[AMPHAR]

14 minutes ago, cincyhokie said:

I’m going to do this thing called holding two truths at once. Yes, Palmer could be a little bitch. And he’s also saying absolute truths about the incompetency of the FO. 
 

Character assassination doesn’t remove the evidence of 29 years. Sorry.

Bengal fans are so good at playing the victim. 

Yes this season sucks and there is little we can do about it.  So let’s latch on to anything that helps us cope no matter what. 

Palner quit.  The Bengals got better.  Whatever reality he imagined was proven to be false. 

His opinion on anything Bengals is useless to me because there are facts and there have been former Bengal teammates take shots at him during a time when they were winning that dispute his world view. 

[AMPHAR]

27 minutes ago, cincyhokie said:

Because it’s to his point that they don’t go to the level of effort to win a championship. They clearly ignored key positions such as center during those years. 

 

Burfict destroyed his coaches faith in a playoff game. That’s completely on Lewis. 

Lewis personally scouted Bodine and they traded up to get him. 

None of what you are saying is true. 

 

[cincyhokie]

6 minutes ago, AMPHAR said:

Bengal fans are so good at playing the victim. 

Yes this season sucks and there is little we can do about it.  So let’s latch on to anything that helps us cope no matter what. 

Palner quit.  The Bengals got better.  Whatever reality he imagined was proven to be false. 

His opinion on anything Bengals is useless to me because there are facts and there have been former Bengal teammates take shots at him during a time when they were winning that dispute his world view. 

Lol. Yeah, we’re just making shit up. We’re such victims. You know averaging 6 wins a season for 29 years and holding the longest playoff win drought in major sports. 
 

It’s almost like we should just take it. Like fans in other towns would do. They’d just shut up and accept all of it. But for some reason fans in Cincinnati don’t like perennial losing and a losing culture. 
 

Gosh, it’s almost as if the fans are just creating something out of nothing. Another 0-8 start to the season? Those things happen from time to time, right? It’s the way the ol’ football bounces!

Now let’s get that ox cart out of that ditch! 

[COB]

49 minutes ago, AMPHAR said:

...and Bodine?   

Come on now.  This dude can’t be an example of anything positive.  He ranked last in the league or close to last his whole time here.  They basically duplicated their Trampled-Check mistake, letting a very bad center ruin the o-line for the length of his contract, with Bodine.  It’s the manifestation of one of Mike’s many self-defeating philosophies.

[COB]

I admire Palmer to a degree.  Dude basically quit football in the middle of his career rather than play for Mike again.  
 

I’m not saying he was right, or justifying it (especially since it was the year after Mike signed TO at Palmer’s request).  
 

But that shows some resolve. I wasn’t sorry to see him go, he seemed to throw picks right and left those last few years.  Nonetheless, nerves of steel, and probably a pretty savvy agent.  

[ArmyBengal]

Playoffs make him wrong ??

Dude that’s comical.

How did the playoff appearances work out again ??

Seriously you all, there is no point in talking about this anymore. The organization is fucking joke. You all have fun defending them.

Im just going to move on from this. There is no joy here.

[cincyhokie]

3 minutes ago, ArmyBengal said:

There is no joy here.

Lol. That’s the truth.

[volcom69]

There is no joy about this team at all!

Every good player that has left this team has said so many bad things about this org. Is it true I don’t know I’m not in that locker room, but with all these guys saying stuff it’s hard not to believe it.

Worst thing is Marvin Lewis was the best thing to happen to this team. He came in took a laughing stock of a team to 8-8 in his first year with Kitna at QB and a bunch crappy free agents they brought in. For years he gave this team hope to make the playoffs, he built a coaching staff that was awesome. It was great till all hell broke loose after that last playoff loss. He was losing his coaches, he never knew if he was getting fired, and he became a loss cause. Makes me wonder if he was given all the power, what kind of team he could have built.

Taylor comes in with pretty much the same team as last season and can’t win a freaking game. His coaching staff made up of a bunch of his good buddies with no experience can’t gameplan worth a shit. Whatever hope there was is thrown out the window, and I don’t see this team winning for years. This whole thing just sucks. 
 

This guy is starting to make me miss Marvin and that’s a really bad thing since I was ready to see Marvin leave. Now I’m depressed again!

[ShulaSteakhouse]

Carson Palmer sounds-off on the Bengals in a recent podcast, and says exactly what I have said here as well: The Bengals' don't value winning enough, they don't care enough, they don't make enough effort.  There's incompetence in there also, but most of it is just a lack of support, effort and the will to win games, always "hoping things fall your way" and depending on rookie draft picks too often to fill immediate openings where they've let people go due to cheapness/laziness, whatever, just too much of that.

His comment about that off-season and the Bengals' "doing nothing" sounds a lot like this past off-season...it never changes.  I think Taylor missed the memo before taking this job.

Quote

We won our division. We got good one year. We were close to getting good and we needed some key pieces. And I had gone to the organization and was like ... we need a couple players here, a couple players there ... and then of course the offseason comes, and nothing happens. Nothing changes. And it was year after year. In order to win in the NFL ... you've got to be desperate to win a championship. You've got to be all in.

The financials and the money side of it are very important obviously to owners, and to everybody that's invested in the organization. But if the most important thing is the financials and the second-most important thing is winning, then you don't have a chance. And it's so important that ownership is willing to do what it takes to win. ... If you just kinda sit there and hope that things fall your way, you've got to get really, really lucky to win a championship. But if you're desperate and you're willing to do what it takes and you'll spend to go get this player. ... You've got to be consistently trying to build a championship team.

If you're just kinda sitting there and hoping somebody falls in your lap, it's hard to do it that way. You've got to have the ball bounce your way a number of times in the playoffs. And you've got to get lucky here and get lucky there. You look at New England and there's not a lot of luck. And lot of that is built specifically. You look at what Pittsburgh's done the last 20 years, there's not a lot of luck involved in that ... you look at what Seattle's done, there's not a lot of luck. ... T

 

[AMPHAR]

5 hours ago, ArmyBengal said:

Playoffs make him wrong ??

Dude that’s comical.

How did the playoff appearances work out again ??

Seriously you all, there is no point in talking about this anymore. The organization is fucking joke. You all have fun defending them.

Im just going to move on from this. There is no joy here.

Do you think Palmer had access to the front office since he left?

Yeah making the playoffs does make him wrong.     You or Palmer can’t take that away from them. 

 

[AMPHAR]

7 hours ago, COB said:

Come on now.  This dude can’t be an example of anything positive.  He ranked last in the league or close to last his whole time here.  They basically duplicated their Trampled-Check mistake, letting a very bad center ruin the o-line for the length of his contract, with Bodine.  It’s the manifestation of one of Mike’s many self-defeating philosophies.

An incorrect point was made that Mike Brown purposely never addressed Center.

Not true.  Marvin scouted him.  Then they traded up to get him.

 

[cincyhokie]

1 minute ago, AMPHAR said:

An incorrect point was made that Mike Brown purposely never addressed Center.

Not true.  Marvin scouted him.  Then they traded up to get him.

 

My point was that he was one of the glaring needs to solidify the roster. At the very least you try and get someone else on the line to come in and take over. Basically what they did these past 2 seasons with having Hopkins replace Price. Or make a trade. Do something. You can't just let a glaring weakness continue when you have what they had in 2015. They did the same thing with Guy-check in letting him stay too long on those other decent teams 2011-2013. Both he and Bodine quickly exited the NFL once they were let go from the Bengals.

[AMPHAR]

27 minutes ago, ShulaSteakhouse said:

Carson Palmer sounds-off on the Bengals in a recent podcast, and says exactly what I have said here as well: The Bengals' don't value winning enough, they don't care enough, they don't make enough effort.  There's incompetence in there also, but most of it is just a lack of support, effort and the will to win games, always "hoping things fall your way" and depending on rookie draft picks too often to fill immediate openings where they've let people go due to cheapness/laziness, whatever, just too much of that.

His comment about that off-season and the Bengals' "doing nothing" sounds a lot like this past off-season...it never changes.  I think Taylor missed the memo before taking this job.

 

Is that the offseason they added Antonio Bryant and Terrel Owens? 

After adding Cedric Benson?  

Then in the draft they added Atkins, Dunlap, Gresham?

That offseason? lol.

As stated before the guy has no credibility.  He was jaded and looking to blame anyone but himself for his declining play at the time.

The organization was In fact building a playoff team at the time he quit on them. 

 

 

[AMPHAR]

1 minute ago, cincyhokie said:

My point was that he was one of the glaring needs to solidify the roster. At the very least you try and get someone else on the line to come in and take over. Basically what they did these past 2 seasons with having Hopkins replace Price. Or make a trade. Do something. You can't just let a glaring weakness continue when you have what they had in 2015. They did the same thing with Guy-check in letting him stay too long on those other decent teams 2011-2013. Both he and Bodine quickly exited the NFL once they were let go from the Bengals.

Again my point is the Head Coach GOT his player.  You have no idea IF they ever considered that a need afterward.  

 

[cincyhokie]

1 minute ago, AMPHAR said:

Is that the offseason they added Antonio Bryant and Terrel Owens? 

After adding Cedric Benson?  

Then in the draft they added Atkins, Dunlap, Gresham?

That offseason? lol.

As stated before the guy has no credibility.  He was jaded and looking to blame anyone but himself for his declining play at the time.

 

 

Yeah, I don't necessarily agree that they did "nothing". They didn't do enough, though. Palmer made other good points that were much more accurate than the "did nothing" accusation. Even if what he said is 50% accurate, or even 20% true, add that to the other evidence and it continues to bring credence to the point that so many others, players, agents, etc have been making for a long time. 

Bottom line is that the Bengals continually make the bed they continue to lie in. So I don't feel sorry for them at all.

Consistently good teams take responsibility and are proactive in their pursuit to win a championship.

[AMPHAR]

7 minutes ago, cincyhokie said:

Yeah, I don't necessarily agree that they did "nothing". They didn't do enough, though. Palmer made other good points that were much more accurate than the "did nothing" accusation. Even if what he said is 50% accurate, or even 20% true, add that to the other evidence and it continues to bring credence to the point that so many others, players, agents, etc have been making for a long time. 

Bottom line is that the Bengals continually make the bed they continue to lie in. So I don't feel sorry for them at all.

Consistently good teams take responsibility and are proactive in their pursuit to win a championship.

Palmer hasn’t been in the building since 2010.  He has no fucking clue what’s going on today. 

Above he claimed they never added pieces after winning the division which is factually not true.  Anyone with a decent memory can poke holes in his claims. 

He had no fucking clue what was being built while he was in the building.

Fact is Palmer will never have anything positive to say about the Bengals and you’ll hear from him when he has an opportunity to grind his axe.  Which is what 0-8 gets you. 

They are currently 0-8 in large part in trying to let Marvin extend the 2015 run in which he failed at doing. 

Palmer had every opportunity here and he passed on it.  

 

[cincyhokie]

I can't remember who quoted this but back in the late 80's or early 90's when the league implemented Plan B free agency, this person said "It'll be the death of the Bengals". Maybe someone remembers who said that. What he was alluding to was the style of running the team as the Bengals had done it since 1968 wasn't going to mesh well with the new free agency processes. He was right.

The Browns haven't evolved much and it has nothing to do with them "not wanting to win". I think they do want to win. Mike Brown wants to win. But he wants to do it his way and his dad's way. But the NFL has changed so much in the last 3 decades and its changing exponentially now.  The Brown family can't keep up and they don't want to get outside help. It's killing this fanbase. Sure there's some success here and there. But there's just too much alienation between the FO and the fanbase. There are 2 entire generations lost to Bengals football because of the way they do things in the FO.

Their style of running an organization with a draft heavy, concrete contract loyalty based style can't keep up with the rest of the NFL. It leads to relying on an extreme amount of luck and timing. Tight windows for success. And sure they'll be some good seasons here and there but the recovery time for lapses kills any momentum that they build. It's not consistent model for sustainability. It just isn't. They have the smallest and most limited scouting department in the NFL. And they're a draft focused team. They could hire a top rate scouting department to highlight their style. But they don't. It's maddening. 

I have a feeling that Mike is like his dad in many ways because of what he's learned but also because that's how he pays tribute to him. It's how he connected with him when he was alive and how he honors him in death. He's a loyal guy. He's stubborn. He wants to win desperately. But not at the cost of losing that connection with his father who is considered an NFL legend. But also because he's loyal to his dad and all his dad endured in Cleveland and getting outed there.

[ArmyBengal]

Taking a vacation from this nonsense.

You guys take care.

0-8 is not the reason. It’s the result of not caring.

Later...

[COB]

Following up on Hokie’s post, I agree with all of it and have one thought to add.  Mike spent the first third or so of his tenure with the Bengals basically cheaping out on everything as the family shoveled money to the other owners to get 100% of the franchise.  Once you learn to do business one way, that leaves an imprint even as you change your ways down the road.  I don’t think Mike has ever shaken that experience, it informs his every move.  Winning is not the ultimate goal, being fiscally conservative is, then winning can occur within that paradigm.  Or not.  
 

I just watched the Ravens.  They look like they’re in a different league.  We just look so far away from that.

[AMPHAR]

Taking Price over Jackson will haunt this franchise. 

That’s the result of letting Marvin linger too long.  He never wanted his QB starter questioned.  They went to filling needs instead of talent. 

 

[AMPHAR]

12 hours ago, cincyhokie said:

I can't remember who quoted this but back in the late 80's or early 90's when the league implemented Plan B free agency, this person said "It'll be the death of the Bengals". Maybe someone remembers who said that. What he was alluding to was the style of running the team as the Bengals had done it since 1968 wasn't going to mesh well with the new free agency processes. He was right.

The Browns haven't evolved much and it has nothing to do with them "not wanting to win". I think they do want to win. Mike Brown wants to win. But he wants to do it his way and his dad's way. But the NFL has changed so much in the last 3 decades and its changing exponentially now.  The Brown family can't keep up and they don't want to get outside help. It's killing this fanbase. Sure there's some success here and there. But there's just too much alienation between the FO and the fanbase. There are 2 entire generations lost to Bengals football because of the way they do things in the FO.

Their style of running an organization with a draft heavy, concrete contract loyalty based style can't keep up with the rest of the NFL. It leads to relying on an extreme amount of luck and timing. Tight windows for success. And sure they'll be some good seasons here and there but the recovery time for lapses kills any momentum that they build. It's not consistent model for sustainability. It just isn't. They have the smallest and most limited scouting department in the NFL. And they're a draft focused team. They could hire a top rate scouting department to highlight their style. But they don't. It's maddening. 

I have a feeling that Mike is like his dad in many ways because of what he's learned but also because that's how he pays tribute to him. It's how he connected with him when he was alive and how he honors him in death. He's a loyal guy. He's stubborn. He wants to win desperately. But not at the cost of losing that connection with his father who is considered an NFL legend. But also because he's loyal to his dad and all his dad endured in Cleveland and getting outed there.

Talking about the 90s and Mike Brown is just a bunch of hot air and IMO it's not even relevant to the discussion of the current Bengals.   Case in point the Palmer comments above.     Palmer spews a bunch of bullshit and just because the overall premise of it smears Mike Brown some fans agree with it.   What a bunch of crap, IMO.

Yeah the Bengals can't find right coaches?  What the fuck Palmer?   They added Zimmer when you where here.   Oh, and they had 4 assistants go on to get head coaching jobs two of which have gotten their teams to the playoffs some of which were here during your last season.    Several other assistants promoted upward with other organizations. 

Player talent?  Palmer clearly doesn't know his ass from a hole in ground on that topic.  The core of a playoff run was added right under his nose. 

Any Bengal fan willing to listen to that bullshit is just jaded in my book.     Any jaded Bengal fan can spin the tales of the 90s and relive them so greatly.

Just a bunch of hot air.         The fact is Tobin has a large influence on the player acquisition.   So much in fact he turned down interviews for GM jobs.   He also was the central figure in the head coaching hire.   Then they let that head coach hire the entire staff.

These are proof of changes.   Yet here we are discussing the 90s.   

The most relevant issue is Tobin.   Can the guy draft a half decent starting offensive lineman?   Can he repeat the talent grab that Carson Palmer couldn't see?    If he can,  can Zac Taylor not choke it away like Marvin Lewis did?    If the answer of these questions are "no" then how fast will the Brown family make the change?    Those are the issues.   Not holding on to Carson's world view and creating a narrative of the NFL passing them by.

[cincyhokie]

4 hours ago, AMPHAR said:

Talking about the 90s and Mike Brown is just a bunch of hot air and IMO it's not even relevant to the discussion of the current Bengals.   Case in point the Palmer comments above.     Palmer spews a bunch of bullshit and just because the overall premise of it smears Mike Brown some fans agree with it.   What a bunch of crap, IMO.

Yeah the Bengals can't find right coaches?  What the fuck Palmer?   They added Zimmer when you where here.   Oh, and they had 4 assistants go on to get head coaching jobs two of which have gotten their teams to the playoffs some of which were here during your last season.    Several other assistants promoted upward with other organizations. 

Player talent?  Palmer clearly doesn't know his ass from a hole in ground on that topic.  The core of a playoff run was added right under his nose. 

Any Bengal fan willing to listen to that bullshit is just jaded in my book.     Any jaded Bengal fan can spin the tales of the 90s and relive them so greatly.

Just a bunch of hot air.         The fact is Tobin has a large influence on the player acquisition.   So much in fact he turned down interviews for GM jobs.   He also was the central figure in the head coaching hire.   Then they let that head coach hire the entire staff.

These are proof of changes.   Yet here we are discussing the 90s.   

The most relevant issue is Tobin.   Can the guy draft a half decent starting offensive lineman?   Can he repeat the talent grab that Carson Palmer couldn't see?    If he can,  can Zac Taylor not choke it away like Marvin Lewis did?    If the answer of these questions are "no" then how fast will the Brown family make the change?    Those are the issues.   Not holding on to Carson's world view and creating a narrative of the NFL passing them by.

It’s almost like we’ll be talking about 2011-2015 in the 2020’s and 2030’s. Maybe the Bengals can be like the Reds and make multiple bobble head giveaways honoring those 5 straight one and done playoff loses.

[cincyhokie]

16 hours ago, cincyhokie said:

I can't remember who quoted this but back in the late 80's or early 90's when the league implemented Plan B free agency, this person said "It'll be the death of the Bengals". Maybe someone remembers who said that. What he was alluding to was the style of running the team as the Bengals had done it since 1968 wasn't going to mesh well with the new free agency processes. He was right.

The Browns haven't evolved much and it has nothing to do with them "not wanting to win". I think they do want to win. Mike Brown wants to win. But he wants to do it his way and his dad's way. But the NFL has changed so much in the last 3 decades and its changing exponentially now.  The Brown family can't keep up and they don't want to get outside help. It's killing this fanbase. Sure there's some success here and there. But there's just too much alienation between the FO and the fanbase. There are 2 entire generations lost to Bengals football because of the way they do things in the FO.

Their style of running an organization with a draft heavy, concrete contract loyalty based style can't keep up with the rest of the NFL. It leads to relying on an extreme amount of luck and timing. Tight windows for success. And sure they'll be some good seasons here and there but the recovery time for lapses kills any momentum that they build. It's not consistent model for sustainability. It just isn't. They have the smallest and most limited scouting department in the NFL. And they're a draft focused team. They could hire a top rate scouting department to highlight their style. But they don't. It's maddening. 

I have a feeling that Mike is like his dad in many ways because of what he's learned but also because that's how he pays tribute to him. It's how he connected with him when he was alive and how he honors him in death. He's a loyal guy. He's stubborn. He wants to win desperately. But not at the cost of losing that connection with his father who is considered an NFL legend. But also because he's loyal to his dad and all his dad endured in Cleveland and getting outed there.

I remember who said this. It was Bob Trumpy. Former Bengal and radio guy, analyst, etc.