What to do for 2017 and beyond!

[HoosierCat]

With PFF my main issue is that football is so interdependent. For example on the oline it only takes one guy to screw up and blow up a play, so you can have four players who grade out great but the line still blows because the fifth guy is such a bum. Which is what happened a lot this year when Ced was starting. Individual grade systems have a hard time capturing this IMO.

[HoosierCat]

Are you depressed? Would you like to be? Then read the latest Hobson column:

‪http://www.bengals.com/news/article-1/Hobsons-Choice-search-for-absolute-value/99ca8576-db34-4a17-8a89-c40a73800f5f

tl;dr version:

Can't take an RB at 9, even Fournette, because other positions like corner and receiver are more valuable.

Can't keep Zeitler.

Probably can't keep Burkhead.

Coaches still high on Hill.

Ced is not a bust. Is not, is not, is not!

Just a few tweaks and they're an 11-12 win team.

Mike Brown loves Marvin and will never fire him because Art Modell.

SSDY.

[COB]

Depression sets in, builds a house, pays property taxes for 20 years, becomes president of the PTA, raises kids, volunteers at the local library, then decides to just spend retirement right here, these winters aren't that bad!

[kingwilly]

2 hours ago, HoosierCat said:

Are you depressed? Would you like to be? Then read the latest Hobson column:

‪http://www.bengals.com/news/article-1/Hobsons-Choice-search-for-absolute-value/99ca8576-db34-4a17-8a89-c40a73800f5f

tl;dr version:

Can't take an RB at 9, even Fournette, because other positions like corner and receiver are more valuable.

Can't keep Zeitler.

Probably can't keep Burkhead.

Coaches still high on Hill.

Ced is not a bust. Is not, is not, is not!

Just a few tweaks and they're an 11-12 win team.

Mike Brown loves Marvin and will never fire him because Art Modell.

SSDY.

That's a hard read. 

The idea that they don't value the RB position lines up perfectly with them giving Hill the start on 17. Wonderful. 

Troubling they think keeping Dre, Whit and Zeitler will mean $10M each. It won't but the vibe is a G doesn't warrant paying the true market value, better to let a great player walk and be replaced by someone cheap. Goodbye run game. 

Ced is a bust. Nothing more. 

Burkhead gone. I hope he enjoys starting for the Giants or Denver. 

[BengalszoneBilly]

4 hours ago, HoosierCat said:

Are you depressed? Would you like to be? Then read the latest Hobson column:

‪http://www.bengals.com/news/article-1/Hobsons-Choice-search-for-absolute-value/99ca8576-db34-4a17-8a89-c40a73800f5f

tl;dr version:

Can't take an RB at 9, even Fournette, because other positions like corner and receiver are more valuable.

Can't keep Zeitler.

Probably can't keep Burkhead.

Coaches still high on Hill.

Ced is not a bust. Is not, is not, is not!

Just a few tweaks and they're an 11-12 win team.

Mike Brown loves Marvin and will never fire him because Art Modell.

SSDY.

My despair only deepens.

[cincyhokie]

8 hours ago, HoosierCat said:

Are you depressed? Would you like to be? Then read the latest Hobson column:

‪http://www.bengals.com/news/article-1/Hobsons-Choice-search-for-absolute-value/99ca8576-db34-4a17-8a89-c40a73800f5f

tl;dr version:

Can't take an RB at 9, even Fournette, because other positions like corner and receiver are more valuable.

Can't keep Zeitler.

Probably can't keep Burkhead.

Coaches still high on Hill.

Ced is not a bust. Is not, is not, is not!

Just a few tweaks and they're an 11-12 win team.

Mike Brown loves Marvin and will never fire him because Art Modell.

SSDY.

I don't know.  This quote was enough for humor value.

"I remember when the Bengals traded up to get Penn State running back Ki-Jana Carter No. 1 and one of Paul Alexander’s fellow offensive line coaches, back in the days before texts, left him a voice mail that said, “Congratulations, you just got the best offensive lineman in the draft.”  

Paul Alexander.  Master of the voice mail era.

[cincyhokie]

"Brown is old school. A handshake, a look in the eye, hours of blood, sweat, and tears, all that stuff means something to him. Brown and Lewis begin every day meeting in Brown’s office and he feels a comfort level with Lewis and an appreciation for the guy that helped him revive the franchise in 2003.

And, even though it may have been more than 50 years ago, it just can’t be underestimated how deeply Paul Brown’s firing in Cleveland at the end of the 1962 season impacted the Brown family. For Mike Brown, it still lingers and it remains the most distasteful moment of his NFL career."

Again, MB wants to win.  Badly.  It's just that he'd rather lose his way than win overall.  He really wants to win HIS way.  HE wants to win through the Bengals.  The Bengals winning in and of it's self is a distant second to handshakes, blood, tears, and shitting on the ghost of Art Modell.  It's an ego filled personal thing for him and as long as that's the main goal, this team is effffed, folks.  Read:  Ego is the Enemy by Ryan Holiday.

[cincyhokie]

Bottom line from the article.

Like what you're given.  This is a 12-4 team damnit.  Why are all of you so greedy to want a playoff win for the first time since 1990?  Don't you appreciate all that the Bengals have done?  Don't you remember the 1990's?

Basically, the Bengals broke your leg, then sold you a decent crutch.  You should celebrate that and remember how bad things were when your leg was broken.  The crutch is awesome.  And WE, the front office, gave you an awesome crutch.  Stop wanting so much.  Greedy pricks.  

[HoosierCat]

1 hour ago, cincyhokie said:

Bottom line from the article.

Like what you're given.  This is a 12-4 team damnit.  Why are all of you so greedy to want a playoff win for the first time since 1990?  Don't you appreciate all that the Bengals have done?  Don't you remember the 1990's?

Basically, the Bengals broke your leg, then sold you a decent crutch.  You should celebrate that and remember how bad things were when your leg was broken.  The crutch is awesome.  And WE, the front office, gave you an awesome crutch.  Stop wanting so much.  Greedy pricks.  

Early candidate for post of the year right there.

[COB]

12 hours ago, cincyhokie said:

Read:  Ego is the Enemy by Ryan Holiday.

I bought it on Amazon based on your recommendation but haven't started it yet.

 

I wonder if, as I have long believed, Geoff Hobson has contacts in the Bengals' organization that feed him the current strategies and thinking of the FO. 

If that is true, then Hoosier's summation is what we're actually going to see.  Looks like edge rusher or CB in the first.

There is some merit to what Hobson says regarding no major changes needed.

He points to good record last year, this year losing Green and Eifert for long stretches, and the last 5 games being lost by a total of 16 points.  He basically says rather than blow anything up, let's just find a way to score one more touchdown per game.

Sounds reasonable.  The one nagging thing I can't get away from - we didn't just start sucking in '16.  It pretty much fell apart 9 or so games into '15.  They had a chance to fix it the traditional Bengals way, and they failed.  So they're going to try again.  Hobson blatantly calls next year's win total at 11 or 12 games.  I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man.

I can hardly believe Mike is going to run the same bullshit out there next year.  Change is difficult, but watching another Paul Alexander line hide behind a super-quick-release scheme is worse.  

Your depth running back is better than your high pick running back.  I wonder which guy would get the job in New England or Denver?

[HoosierCat]

Yes, there's some merit to the no major changes needed argument. The problem is that when you look at many of the specifics proposed, it amounts to changing things that are working. There's talk of drafting a WR as high as 9, but the WR corps is pretty far down the list of issues. Zeitler and Dre were both balling last season and both may be gone because the FO is frightened of "overpaying." Burkhead has taken advantage of every opportunity and now is likely to be playing elsewhere next season.

Meanwhile, stuff that wasn't working gets no love. Coaches love Hill still. Ced will get a do over. Ditto Zampese. Talk of bringing back Peko because Whit will want him back. Hell, Hobs even claims Will Clarke hasn't had enough snaps to know who he is. Seriously? Somewhere in there I think he talks about having MJ mentor a pass rusher...lol. 

Bottom line, this organization can't admit when it's failed and is reluctant to pay for success. Maybe they prove me wrong in the coming months but I'm not going to hold my breath.

[cincyhokie]

3 hours ago, COB said:

Sounds reasonable.  The one nagging thing I can't get away from - we didn't just start sucking in '16.  It pretty much fell apart 9 or so games into '15.  They had a chance to fix it the traditional Bengals way, and they failed.  So they're going to try again.  Hobson blatantly calls next year's win total at 11 or 12 games.  I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man.

This is the problem right here.  The Bengals are a team in the 11-5, 12-4 range WHEN things fall perfectly into place, i.e. everyone is healthy.  Which we saw in 2015. However, even IF Dalton doesn't get hurt, this team STILL had much room to improve coming off that flukish no-injury 2015 season.

And THAT'S the problem.  They are always looking BACKWARDS.  "How can we sustain what we have?  How can we get the perfect formula and bottle it for continued success?"  So here we are AGAIN....making excuses on why this is ACTUALLY a 12-4 team and not a 6-9-1 team.   "If we were just healthier.  If things were this way.  If the coaches did that.  If the ball bounced this way...."

It's the talk of losers.  Not because the excuses aren't true.  But because focusing about things you can't control is pointless.  But hey, don't you know that if Greg Cook would have been healthy this team would have gone to multiple super bowls?  WGAF.

Things are always changing.  And if you're not changing and making assertive moves, you are falling behind.  MB cannot grasp that concept.  And of course it makes him uncomfortable to change.

INSTEAD of looking to make that 12-4 2015 team elite and make it a 14-2 team, the Bengals are looking at ways for 2017 to get back to 2015 and 12-4 again.  WTF, Chuck.    Good lord.  Nostalgia and romanticism run high at PBS.  Which is weird because you think having a players ring of honor was some sort of treasonous idea.

From obsessing about the potential of Greg Cook in 1968 to Carson Palmer's injury in 2005, this team and fanbase cannot get over the addiction to look backwards.  

[HoosierCat]

Yup. The only reason they quit trying to reanimate the corpse of 2005 was that after 2010 Palmer quit.

[cincyhokie]

1 hour ago, HoosierCat said:

Yup. The only reason they quit trying to reanimate the corpse of 2005 was that after 2010 Palmer quit.

Damn.  Great point.

[COB]

4 hours ago, HoosierCat said:

 Zeitler and Dre were both balling last season and both may be gone because the FO is frightened of "overpaying." Burkhead has taken advantage of every opportunity and now is likely to be playing elsewhere next season.

Mike and Katie have looked at the CBA.  They know the huge difference between a pretty competent player on his rookie deal and a pretty competent player on his second contract.

I'm guessing their strategy is to pay multiple contracts for 1.  Unique talents, i.e. AJ Green, Whit, Geno, etc., 2.  Quarterbacks you can win with, i.e. Dalton, and 3. Barely serviceable guys who fill a spot and are cheap, i.e. Peko, Peerman, Williams, some of our O-line depth, etc.  

The flip side of that strategy?  If you were drafted by the Bengals and you've performed to a level that puts you, say, in the 45th to 15th percentile at your position, the Bengals are going to find another version of you in the draft and let you get (over) paid by someone else.

[HoosierCat]

I'd go further and say that's always been their strategy, at least in the FA era (which is to say, the Mikey era).

The problem, of course, is that it doesn't work. But as hokie notes, Mike's not gonna let little facts like that get in the way. His way, that is.

[cincyhokie]

40 minutes ago, HoosierCat said:

I'd go further and say that's always been their strategy, at least in the FA era (which is to say, the Mikey era).

The problem, of course, is that it doesn't work. But as hokie notes, Mike's not gonna let little facts like that get in the way. His way, that is.

And it's not that it can't work.  It can.  But it's too inflexible of a methodology to be a consistent winner in the NFL.  And by consistent winner, I don't mean go 10-6 every year and then piss down your leg in the playoffs.   

[HoosierCat]

I would actually argue that it really can't work. It goes back to some of those excuses (particularly injuries) you mentioned. When you won't pay a mid tier guy (or a top guy like Zeitler at a spot u think u can get cheap), all you have are bums and rookies when your stars can't ring the bell. And it's inevitable in today's NFL the stars will hit bumps, either injuries or just bad days or really good defenses or defensive coordinators or bad weather or illness or some other team offering a star something you can't (Marvin Jones) and on and on with the things you can't control. So there's no one to step up and it's on to the next offseason to try to draft fixes. But there are always more unexpected things that happen. You can never get ahead. Mike Brown is George Jetson on the space treadmill, except, no, Jane, don't stop this crazy thing I'll do it myself and get in the best shape of my life while I'm at it!

[cincyhokie]

8 minutes ago, HoosierCat said:

I would actually argue that it really can't work. It goes back to some of those excuses (particularly injuries) you mentioned. When you won't pay a mid tier guy (or a top guy like Zeitler at a spot u think u can get cheap), all you have are bums and rookies when your stars can't ring the bell. And it's inevitable in today's NFL the stars will hit bumps, either injuries or just bad days or really good defenses or defensive coordinators or bad weather or illness or some other team offering a star something you can't (Marvin Jones) and on and on with the things you can't control. So there's no one to step up and it's on to the next offseason to try to draft fixes. But there are always more unexpected things that happen. You can never get ahead. Mike Brown is George Jetson on the space treadmill, except, no, Jane, don't stop this crazy thing I'll do it myself and get in the best shape of my life while I'm at it!

Yep.  And when the inevitable injuries happen, the Bengals can't recover.  Which is why I think the "depth" strength award that's been given to this team over the past 6 years has been a mirage.  It's also the reason that when the end of the season comes and the Bengals tend to tail off.  But they'll go on with the excuses and Hobson's propaganda to push the narrative that this is a "winning team".  

The mirage of what it SHOULD be is never what really IS.  The narrative is that this really isn't a 6 win team (which it is) and that they're a few lucky bounces away from getting back to 12-4 (which it isn't and never was).  If anything, that 12-4 team in 2015 was a stars aligned blip of a fluke.  

[HoosierCat]

Things Hobs writes that make me LOL:

Quote

Lewis wasn’t ready to pronounce the pass rush as a top priority even though they had 10 fewer sacks than last season.

Pass rushers? We don't need no steenking pass rushers! So what is the biggest priority, Marvin?

Quote

It sounds like Lewis is paying attention to both, but his biggest off-season priority appears to be coming out of the intangibles category. With the Bengals looking to re-sign long-time locker room leaders Whitworth and nose tackle  Domata Peko , he’s looking for reserves that can‘t be reserved to eventually succeed them down the road after the next few seasons.

Domata. Peko. Because intangibles. LOL. But wait, there's more: Leadership, The Next Generation!

Quote

But Lewis is also looking to a second and third wave of leaders containing such on-field quarterbacks as Andy Dalton and  Vontaze Burfict , all the way down to guys like  Jake Fisher , the new right tackle heading into his third season.

Jake Fisher, our new Captain Picard!

Then, finally, this:

Quote

“Our best players, A.J. Green, Geno Atkins, let’s start with them,’ Lewis said. “Where they are in their NFL careers, they’ve got to help pull forward others. They’ve got to become not only leaders and players by example, but leaders 24/7 throughout the building.

“If that means being more vocal, being more dominant in bringing guys along in practice, whatever it is, being more demanding of how guys prepare and practice so that the standard never wavers. Because they’re the best players in the building. They’re recognized across the league as very good players, so they’ve got to help uplift this building.”

I've always defended Lewis, but this may be it. Hey you effing ahole, guess what? Being demanding of how guys prepare and practice? Expecting a high standard and being vocal about it? That's not Green and Geno's job: THAT'S YOUR FREAKING JOB YOU FREAKING IDIOT!!!

all from here: http://www.bengals.com/news/article-1/No-talk-shows-for-Lewis/0c35b7a2-d763-4c2d-82d5-2f4c7018ffe7

[cincyhokie]

11 minutes ago, HoosierCat said:

I've always defended Lewis, but this may be it. Hey you effing ahole, guess what? Being demanding of how guys prepare and practice? Expecting a high standard and being vocal about it? That's not Green and Geno's job: THAT'S YOUR FREAKING JOB YOU FREAKING IDIOT!!!

all from here: http://www.bengals.com/news/article-1/No-talk-shows-for-Lewis/0c35b7a2-d763-4c2d-82d5-2f4c7018ffe7

2017 Camp Motto:  Hope, wish, pray

Hilarious write up by Hobson, agreed.  

Here's what I continue to fail to get with coaches and fans alike.  You don't turn players into leaders.  You draft and bring them in from FA.  Players that ARE leaders. Not everyone can be a leader because they play well.  You either are or aren't.  

Jeebus.  You'd think that the coach who directly coached Ray freakin' Lewis that he would understand the make-up of a leader.  

Anyway.  Can't wait to see the ol' 2010 model car being rolled back on the field for another season.   Also can't wait to hear the excuses as to why they didn't make the playoffs again.  

[COB]

If you didn't want AJ Green the silent assassin, you shouldn't have drafted him.  Nothing about AJ Green makes me think he's going to suddenly be able to start yelling at guys to hustle or whatever.  It's just not him.  Fuck Marvin.  Scapegoating your two best players, who also happen to be two of the best people on the team isn't leadership.

[HoosierCat]

Yup. I mean, it does happen that some guys do grow into a bigger role, but you can't demand that it happen, and it's not a flaw if it doesn't. Like hokie says, good play does not equal leadership.

I just wonder now exactly what Lewis thinks his job is. If it isn't to stay on top of guys and demand excellence, what is it? 

Oh, right: to stand on the sideline and clap when the team makes another bad play. 

[Stripes]

Remember that time the Bengals had four coaches on the staff with head coaching talent, but the Bengals stuck with Marvin 0-3, 0-4, 0-5, 0-6, 0-7 Lewis and let all of them go?

Spirits are high around here.  Mine too.  I need booze.

[COB]

2 hours ago, Stripes said:

Remember that time the Bengals had four coaches on the staff with head coaching talent, but the Bengals stuck with Marvin 0-3, 0-4, 0-5, 0-6, 0-7 Lewis and let all of them go?

Spirits are high around here.  Mine too.  I need booze.

We need another year of Marvin to figure out what kind of head coach we have here.  Don't want to be too hasty.