The Problem Is Clear

[gregcook68]

15 minutes ago, ArmyBengal said:

It's certainly hard for us fans to really determine what the hell is going on.

I personally don't think Mike Brown has that much to do with it anymore.
Outside of the decision to keep him around, it appears that most other things are handled by someone else.
Drafting, contracts, etc.  He's surely not responsible for how sh*tty the coaches have been lately.
How do we know HE'S the one calling that shot either ??  Seriously, do we know that ??

He's just the owner so he's takes that on. 
Don't get me wrong, i'm not giving him a pass.  Merely saying I don't think any of us truly know.

Opinions are like assholes, but who's opinion on this board concerning the inner workings of this team is beyond a shadow of the doubt ??
I'm thinking that answer is somewhere right around ZERO.  Why argue ??

I've already stated my opinion and all one has to do is look at the history or the franchise:  

1968-1990 Owner - Paul Brown - W-177, L-168, T-1.  12 playoff appearances resulting in 5 wins, 7 losses, including 2 SB appearances.

1991-2016 Owner - Mike Brown - W-171, L-227, T-2.   7 playoff appearances resulting in 0 wins, 7 losses.

I'm done.

[HoosierCat]

Look, here's the thing: even assuming Mike's role is limited to driving his golf cart around the practice field, who in the FO is stepping up to demand accountability?

<insert crickets chirping here>

As long as he is alive and driving that cart, no one will do anything. He is the patriarch. No one will call him out or embarrass him. The beat will go on and on and on. This isn't as much about Mike making decisions anymore as it is no one in the family wanting to hurt his feelings in the family business anymore. If they were losing money it might be different but you can't lose money in today's NFL without trying rarely hard.

[ArmyBengal]

1 hour ago, gregcook68 said:

I've already stated my opinion and all one has to do is look at the history or the franchise:  

1968-1990 Owner - Paul Brown - W-177, L-168, T-1.  12 playoff appearances resulting in 5 wins, 7 losses, including 2 SB appearances.

1991-2016 Owner - Mike Brown - W-171, L-227, T-2.   7 playoff appearances resulting in 0 wins, 7 losses.

I'm done.

So we still haven't won a Super Bowl regardless of the owner right  ??
Outside of playoff wins, there really hasn't been much difference.

Paul Brown is certainly a football icon, but he didn't win sh*t here either.
Maybe Katie can change that once she's fully in charge.

[gregcook68]

6 minutes ago, ArmyBengal said:

So we still haven't won a Super Bowl regardless of the owner right  ??
Outside of playoff wins, there really hasn't been much difference.

Paul Brown is certainly a football icon, but he didn't win sh*t here either.
Maybe Katie can change that once she's fully in charge.

No wait, I'm confused.  I thought you were one of the ones Army, that was all about playoff wins regardless of whether they win the last one or not???

My bad.  I had you confused with someone else.

I have already given up on the idea that this team will lift a Lombardi as long as Brown has the final word.

Maybe Katie is the answer! Marge Schott won a championship in this town!

For the last 6 years, (2011-2015) it has been nice to watch them knowing each and every week they have a good chance to win.  The wheels kind of fell off this year, but they were due.

If you're watching based upon Lombardi dreams, you better find another hobby!

From the lips of Aaron Rodgers .... "RELAX"!

 

[COB]

There are plenty of fan bases that would love to have Mike Brown as their owner.  Ironically, the first one that comes to mind is that poor suffering group of chumps up in Cleveland.

Blaming our playoff losses on Mike is irrational.  What did Mike do in the first 16 games of the season that he didn't do in the playoff game?  Nothing.  He doesn't play or coach.

If you want to look at what consistently lost us our playoff games, look no further than Dalton's complete crap play in those games.  His playoff stats will wreck your thanksgiving, so don't look them up before Friday morning.

[AMPHAR]

Director of player personnel turned down interviews for GM positions.   

That shows a bunch.  1 NFL insiders know his ability and talent.  2 it shows his confidence in the ownership. 

Fans that want to revert back to fearing Mike Brown the first sign of a non playoff season in 6 seasons are stuck in 1991. 

The odd thing is they demand change but can't change themselves. 

[AMPHAR]

Paul never qualified for the playoffs 12 times.   It was 7 appearances and 12 games.   It's only 12 because of Forrest Greg and Sam.   Paul never won a playoff game as coach of the Bengals. 

Paul only had 1 back to back playoff appearance. 

Paul also brought back Sam after 2 seasons of missing playoffs prior to winning the AFC Champ. 

The only difference between Paul and Mike is Paul's loyalty got him playoff victories.  Where as Mike's has limited him to regular season success. 

But Paul also sent Bill Walsh on a path to San Fran.  Which cost him dearly. 

 

If Sam would have squandered 1988 like he did 86,87,89, and 91 he should be viewed as solely responsible because he had the talent.

Marvin has had the talent. Players and coaches. 

Mike Brown is hardly to blame except keeping Marvin which probably more of a Katie influence. 

 

 

[gregcook68]

4 hours ago, AMPHAR said:

Paul never qualified for the playoffs 12 times.   It was 7 appearances and 12 games.   It's only 12 because of Forrest Greg and Sam.   Paul never won a playoff game as coach of the Bengals. 

Paul only had 1 back to back playoff appearance. 

Paul also brought back Sam after 2 seasons of missing playoffs prior to winning the AFC Champ. 

The only difference between Paul and Mike is Paul's loyalty got him playoff victories.  Where as Mike's has limited him to regular season success. 

But Paul also sent Bill Walsh on a path to San Fran.  Which cost him dearly. 

 

If Sam would have squandered 1988 like he did 86,87,89, and 91 he should be viewed as solely responsible because he had the talent.

Marvin has had the talent. Players and coaches. 

Mike Brown is hardly to blame except keeping Marvin which probably more of a Katie influence. 

 

 

Paul and Mike Brown have final say so as ANY owner does.  He approves staff and player selection.  Nothing changes as long as he is at the helm.  I got a whole lot of other much more important priorities to attend to then football, BUT if things stay status quo, I'll stop by at the end of next year after all the frustration and anger is vented with a smiley face to lift everyone up and a promise not to say, "I told you so"!! 

[ArmyBengal]

15 hours ago, gregcook68 said:

No wait, I'm confused.  I thought you were one of the ones Army, that was all about playoff wins regardless of whether they win the last one or not???

My bad.  I had you confused with someone else.

I have already given up on the idea that this team will lift a Lombardi as long as Brown has the final word.

Maybe Katie is the answer! Marge Schott won a championship in this town!

For the last 6 years, (2011-2015) it has been nice to watch them knowing each and every week they have a good chance to win.  The wheels kind of fell off this year, but they were due.

If you're watching based upon Lombardi dreams, you better find another hobby!

From the lips of Aaron Rodgers .... "RELAX"!

 

Nope.

While I want to see them finally get a playoff win, a single wild card win followed by a divisional loss will be VERY little to celebrate.
I just don't feel Mike Brown has as much to do with things as he once did.  I think it's evident in who does what around the organization.
If we don't win a Super Bowl with Mike Brown as an owner, I truly don't think it will be his fault.

Depending on who people want to think are making decision, I don't see much of anything to point at Mike Brown when looking at this season.
The blame for that goes directly on the coaches and lack of production of the players.

If people think he made the final call about some of the players that left, maybe someone could point in his direction.
Players have just as much to say about that as the coaches and owners.
Marvin Jones was offered something comparable to what he got in Detroit but wanted to be a #1.

I don't really care one way or another, i'm not worried about the owner.

[kingwilly]

7 hours ago, AMPHAR said:

Paul never qualified for the playoffs 12 times.   It was 7 appearances and 12 games.   It's only 12 because of Forrest Greg and Sam.   Paul never won a playoff game as coach of the Bengals. 

Paul only had 1 back to back playoff appearance. 

Paul also brought back Sam after 2 seasons of missing playoffs prior to winning the AFC Champ. 

The only difference between Paul and Mike is Paul's loyalty got him playoff victories.  Where as Mike's has limited him to regular season success. 

But Paul also sent Bill Walsh on a path to San Fran.  Which cost him dearly. 

 

If Sam would have squandered 1988 like he did 86,87,89, and 91 he should be viewed as solely responsible because he had the talent.

Marvin has had the talent. Players and coaches. 

Mike Brown is hardly to blame except keeping Marvin which probably more of a Katie influence. 

 

 

Despite the historical review, the fact remains Sam, Forrest and Paul all won playoff games. All won multiple playoff games. 

The current woes of this team do rest with ownership, as that is the party who has permitted the "Brain Drain" from the coaching staff, and allowed the backfill of lesser coaches to occur. To see how the offense and defense has slipped, look no further than that as the culprit. That's an ownership decision, and while some might point to the "goodness"  of loyalty and promotions from within but that's not how teams are measured. The yardstick is wins and losses, including playoffs. 

So, you can pull all the record analysis of Paul, Sam, etc but until Marvin delivers a signature season and playoff win, it really is a moot point. 

Marvin has been a "yes" man, as evidenced by the insertion of Zampese as OC, and he is just the "yes" man SoP wants to keep the business running. 

[AMPHAR]

9 hours ago, gregcook68 said:

Paul and Mike Brown have final say so as ANY owner does.  He approves staff and player selection.  Nothing changes as long as he is at the helm.  I got a whole lot of other much more important priorities to attend to then football, BUT if things stay status quo, I'll stop by at the end of next year after all the frustration and anger is vented with a smiley face to lift everyone up and a promise not to say, "I told you so"!! 

By all means attend to those more important things. 

[AMPHAR]

5 hours ago, kingwilly said:

Despite the historical review, the fact remains Sam, Forrest and Paul all won playoff games. All won multiple playoff games. 

The current woes of this team do rest with ownership, as that is the party who has permitted the "Brain Drain" from the coaching staff, and allowed the backfill of lesser coaches to occur. To see how the offense and defense has slipped, look no further than that as the culprit. That's an ownership decision, and while some might point to the "goodness"  of loyalty and promotions from within but that's not how teams are measured. The yardstick is wins and losses, including playoffs. 

So, you can pull all the record analysis of Paul, Sam, etc but until Marvin delivers a signature season and playoff win, it really is a moot point. 

Marvin has been a "yes" man, as evidenced by the insertion of Zampese as OC, and he is just the "yes" man SoP wants to keep the business running. 

Paul never won a playoff game as HC. 

Heaven forbid we look at FACTs instead of running in fear of Mike boooooogey woooooogey Brown

[kingwilly]

6 hours ago, AMPHAR said:

Paul never won a playoff game as HC. 

Heaven forbid we look at FACTs instead of running in fear of Mike boooooogey woooooogey Brown

Paul Brown won plenty of playoff games, and championships as HC, just not in Cincy. He won the Central twice in the teams first eight years, going 48-36. He'd give himself a pass, since he kind of owned the team and stuff. 

But this isn't about Paul. It's about Mike and Marvin, and why these two can't deliver anything but B- teams. So toss your red herrings aside. 

Focus on the vast and largely known issues with Marvin. From incredibly poor clock management to fielding teams that regularly perform far below the level the talent indicates. Lack of urgency, lack of accountability. Is some of this guided by Mike? Some, but to me the bulk falls on Marvin. 

 

 

[ShulaSteakhouse]

On 11/22/2016 at 11:30 AM, COB said:

Mike's just a convenient punching bag.  If one really looks into it, he has modernized the team in several ways - the most important being he spends money on players up to the salary cap.  Not sure of towel size, not sure of current Lumina driveability, not sure of scouting staff of one person with 5 nephews as part-timers, not sure of all other Brown cheapness narratives from 30 years ago.  

Brown has a very rigid philosophy towards "slotting" position values under the cap that has always been his weakness and is a recipe for failure.  Only in the past 5 or so years has he loosened up a bit with that stupidity, by paying more to keep a Guard like Boling or over-paying a LB or Safety (even if they are not worth it or over-valued by the coaching staff). But it does signal a shift in philosophy nonetheless.

The problem is that he over-pays the wrong guys because they can actually sign them if they just over-pay a little, versus doing whatever they can to keep a guy they drafted and need to keep, or traded for...guys they drafted who deserve it and played up to their potential (aside from one or two marquee players on each side they can market to sell tickets).

Tell me how many Centers, Safeties or LB's they've drafted in the first round since he took over? I would make a guess that it's less than any other team in the NFL, for instance. Meanwhile those positions are core components of the success other cold weather teams have like the Ravens and Steelers (who also enjoy the option of a convenient indoor facility to practice in to simulate dome conditions or just to get stuff done properly when it's pouring down rain or sleeting throughout practice).

So yeah, I think Brown is a major problem and always will be, unless he gives up this "de-valuing" of certain positions, changes his approach, and provides better facilities for his players - I don't see them ever winning a playoff game or doing more than what they've already done.

And all of that doesn't even address the problems with the poor coaches on his staff he clings to way too long.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Stripes]

Let's play Who's To Blame?  I'll list them by my opinion starting with the most culpable.

1.  Marvin Lewis
2.  Paul Alexander and the offensive line
3.  The owning family
4.  Ken Zampese
5.  The schedule and the loss of a home game
6.  Marvin Jones, Mohamed Sanu, Reggie Nelson, and Andre Smith
7.  Jacob Burney and the defensive line minus Geno Atkins
8.  Paul Guenther
9.  The safeties
10.  Vontaze Burfict (suspension and performance) and Karlos Dansby
11.  The 2015-16 Pro Bowl and Tyler Eifert (injury)
12.  Bad luck

Not to blame:

Duke Tobin
Andy Dalton
AJ Green (at least not to this point)
Geno Atkins (draws constant double/triple teams and his teammates haven't capitalized)
The corners
The fans (sometimes I legitimately do blame them for being shit, but not this year)

[rwjcgc]

Tobin has to have a share of the blame.    Unless the mgmt is ignoring his advice on who to draft.   The drafts haven't been that good for a while now.

[Stripes]

I think it's too early to judge the last couple drafts.  If the two OTs taken two drafts ago continue to be worthless perpetually I'll be less inclined to disagree.  I'm not sure whether blame for that is better placed at Tobin's or Alexander's feet.

[kingwilly]

I'd usually agree its too early to bang the last couple drafts, as far as the players, but the luxury pick of WJ3, and the two OTs sets us back.

We did not need two OTs. nope. nor did we need WJ3. We get nothing from Dennard, and they take WJ3 in r1. Silly. They take TWO RTs, and decide Smith is expendable... silly.

Again, this is a management issue. Why promote Zampese? Management. Why let Nelson walk, when our S depth is trash? Management. Why ignore the WR depth, and on;y go after an average guy in LaFell, and draft Boyd in r2? These are mistakes that hurt on the field in the performance, or lack thereof, and its on Management. Connect the dots to whoever you want and the root is management.

 

 

[ArmyBengal]

Man did you all see Mike Brown out there today f*cking up ??
What a sh*t show.  That dude didn't do anything.

Get it?  Anything...  See what I did there?
Whoooohoooo, glad I didn't even bother to watch today.

Had a great time playing Xbox 1 with Jr. and tracking fantasy football scores !!!

[AMPHAR]

On ‎11‎/‎25‎/‎2016 at 2:37 AM, kingwilly said:

Paul Brown won plenty of playoff games, and championships as HC, just not in Cincy. He won the Central twice in the teams first eight years, going 48-36. He'd give himself a pass, since he kind of owned the team and stuff. 

But this isn't about Paul. It's about Mike and Marvin, and why these two can't deliver anything but B- teams. So toss your red herrings aside. 

Focus on the vast and largely known issues with Marvin. From incredibly poor clock management to fielding teams that regularly perform far below the level the talent indicates. Lack of urgency, lack of accountability. Is some of this guided by Mike? Some, but to me the bulk falls on Marvin. 

 

 

As a HC he never won a playoff game in the Superbowl era.      I've focused on Marvin plenty and have stated that will be Mike's downfall because it's only brought him regular season success.

To sit back and talk about the death off Paul Brown and Mike Brown as if we don't have any more information about the situation than we did in 1991 is ignorant rambling.

But firing Marvin isn't as simple as it is typed on a message board.   Marvin built the entire football operations and while Duke Tobin is a major player today and Mike is a minor player (if at all) today Duke Tobin didn't start that way and Katie appears to be way more hands off from the football operations.

IMO, they want Marvin to be apart of this organization post HC career and while it may suck to watch him bumble through playoff victory chances.   That could actually be a good thing long term.  

But here are FACTs about current day Bengals that have been made available or could be obtained with reasonable observation:

1. Some change happened after 2010.  They've admitted it without giving details but you can guess.

2.  There was a Hue Jackson succession plan offered which has been determined to be the idea of Marvin Lewis.  When Lewis speaks of the deal he uses "WE" as in WE offered it.

3.  Duke Tobin has gotten credit lately.   But this is no longer something that should be in the dark to Bengal fans.   He was offered a chance to interview for GM position and he turned them down.   That means insiders know he is doing more than scouting and there is a legitimate success.   He also means he has a good deal of power to turn down a chance a GM jobs.

Duke Tobin, Marvin Lewis, and Katie are your major players in the front office.   Mike Brown drives around players on a golf cart like Grandpa. 

 

[HoosierCat]

Well, all us buttercups can just suck it up, because Marvin's going nowhere (not that we didn't really know that already). 

 

[COB]

Depression sets in.

[COB]

Depression sets in.

[volcom69]

So hard to root for this organization sometimes. I guess I'm hoping he quits then!

[AMPHAR]

I doubt he quits with 0 playoff wins on his resume.    The very min hand he will have to start with Dalton/Green/Eifert/Dunlap/Atkins/Burfict.

Nobody in Marvin's position would hand that over to another coach so they can do what he couldn't with his team.