Bengals @ Lions Gameday Thread

[ShulaSteakhouse]

Quote

But I don’t care what anyone else says I think Bodine is a hell of a player. That’s where I’m at on that.” - Paul Alexander May, 2016

 

Literally anybody, anybody, would be an upgrade.  Alexander is an idiot.

[volcom69]

I just don't understand when the coaches watch film and see Bodine getting pushed back every play, that he gets praised for this crap. I just can't believe that Marvin sits there and says, don't worry he will get better. 

Even us as fans can watch a game and say there goes Bodine again getting pushed back. 

They really screwed up and didn't get anybody else to compete with him. Smarts can only get you so far, at some point he is going to have to play stronger or do something to fix his game

[AMPHAR]

On ‎8‎/‎19‎/‎2016 at 8:02 PM, kingwilly said:

Hopefully, Alexander will retire and we can cease with the stupid bad C selections he's brought in.

Bodine won't improve, no matter what G is to each side.

Disagree.   No. 1  the quality of Centers with this team is on the shoulders of Tobin and Lewis.      They have their say on every pick, but somehow Alexander is left alone on his Center picks?  

Marvin Lewis in his draft notes stated something to the fact "he must have this guy on his team" .   It was that reasoning they traded up to get him.

 

[AMPHAR]

On ‎8‎/‎19‎/‎2016 at 9:29 PM, GapControl said:

Anytime you start to try to defend Bodine ( there are some ways to do it and it crosses my mind too ) just think what Alex Mack would have brought to this line.  You'll pretty much give up your argument immediately.

A large cap hit?    Bodine costs less than a mil against the cap.     Mack will cost his team 9-10 mil against the cap post 2017 with huge dead money charges making it difficult to cut him.

Mack cost Cleveland 10 mil in cap space.

Your basically saying goodbye to Whitworth for Mack if that were to happen.  Or removing Zietler from the team. 

[AMPHAR]

On ‎8‎/‎20‎/‎2016 at 9:11 AM, volcom69 said:

I just don't understand when the coaches watch film and see Bodine getting pushed back every play, that he gets praised for this crap. I just can't believe that Marvin sits there and says, don't worry he will get better. 

Even us as fans can watch a game and say there goes Bodine again getting pushed back. 

They really screwed up and didn't get anybody else to compete with him. Smarts can only get you so far, at some point he is going to have to play stronger or do something to fix his game

There has to be roster give and take somewhere.   Especially with the Bengals that WILL NOT push salary cap dollars into future years.

They have shown to value tackles more than interior line and within interior it's Center that's always been filled the cheapest.    They have had one of the league's best line for a long time with cheaply found Centers. 

I agree with this approach.   I'd rather have Whitworth extensions until he's done and a Z extension.   I would rather have higher draft picks replacing or reloading free agency losses positions vs. upgrading a Center.

 

[HoosierCat]

2 hours ago, AMPHAR said:

Disagree.   No. 1  the quality of Centers with this team is on the shoulders of Tobin and Lewis.      They have their say on every pick, but somehow Alexander is left alone on his Center picks?  

Marvin Lewis in his draft notes stated something to the fact "he must have this guy on his team" .   It was that reasoning they traded up to get him.

 

By all accounts Alexander has plenty of say in the draft room when it comes to o-line positions. And that's true of all the position coaches/coordinators. It's just how the Bengals have always done things. Sometimes they get it right, sometimes your OC falls in love with a small-school receiver with a big forehead, giant hands and eight pounds of pot in his closet. But it's pretty rare that any of the less successful picks in the first few round get let go before their rookie deals are up. Look for them to draft a center next April to groom for 2018.

As for why they traded up, they needed a center, there had been a run on the position, and Bodine was about the last one left that projected as a possible starter.

[kingwilly]

1 hour ago, AMPHAR said:

There has to be roster give and take somewhere.   Especially with the Bengals that WILL NOT push salary cap dollars into future years.

They have shown to value tackles more than interior line and within interior it's Center that's always been filled the cheapest.    They have had one of the league's best line for a long time with cheaply found Centers. 

I agree with this approach.   I'd rather have Whitworth extensions until he's done and a Z extension.   I would rather have higher draft picks replacing or reloading free agency losses positions vs. upgrading a Center.

 

The stunning issue is there is not even competition at C. It's not just dollars and cents. 

When your starter is this bad, so glaringly terrible, that anyone can see and teams will exploit, it's pure incompetence to let it persist. 

No one with any football sense should agree with an approach that puts your QB at real risk. How long till Bodine blows his block and Andy gets his knee munched.... 

[COB]

42 minutes ago, HoosierCat said:

 sometimes your OC falls in love with a small-school receiver with a big forehead, giant hands and eight pounds of pot in his closet.

Thank you so much for this.  Probably my favorite strange pick of all time.  For several years the password for my office wifi was "8 pound" in honor of Jerome Simpson.  

[HoosierCat]

1 hour ago, kingwilly said:

The stunning issue is there is not even competition at C. It's not just dollars and cents. 

When your starter is this bad, so glaringly terrible, that anyone can see and teams will exploit, it's pure incompetence to let it persist. 

No one with any football sense should agree with an approach that puts your QB at real risk. How long till Bodine blows his block and Andy gets his knee munched.... 

Re the bolded above, I agree completely. Yet, we both know this is standard operating procedure in Cincinnati and has been for a long time. May I present exhibit A?

[AMPHAR]

1 hour ago, kingwilly said:

The stunning issue is there is not even competition at C. It's not just dollars and cents. 

When your starter is this bad, so glaringly terrible, that anyone can see and teams will exploit, it's pure incompetence to let it persist. 

No one with any football sense should agree with an approach that puts your QB at real risk. How long till Bodine blows his block and Andy gets his knee munched.... 

Eh,  I don't know about all this.   That's just a disconnect between PFF and Fans film review between the actual reality of coaching/managing an offensive system.

Pressure comes from the edges more so than the center that's why they invest in tackles over center.   Bengal QBs don't get hit nearly as often as other QBs. 

[AMPHAR]

10 minutes ago, HoosierCat said:

Re the bolded above, I agree completely. Yet, we both know this is standard operating procedure in Cincinnati and has been for a long time. May I present exhibit A?

Doesn't match the reality.    Bengals rank the best in avoiding hits on the QB the past 2 years.   58 and 48 respectively.

1st and 2nd in the league the past two years.

 

[HoosierCat]

17 minutes ago, AMPHAR said:

Doesn't match the reality.    Bengals rank the best in avoiding hits on the QB the past 2 years.   58 and 48 respectively.

1st and 2nd in the league the past two years.

 

That's because the offense (now) is designed to get the ball out quickly. Makes the o-line look a lot better than it is.

[AMPHAR]

26 minutes ago, HoosierCat said:

That's because the offense (now) is designed to get the ball out quickly. Makes the o-line look a lot better than it is.

So I should judge this line on it's ability to block a Wishbone triple option? Run and Shoot?  Power trap and isolation gut runs? 

I'll judge them by the way they block the scheme the team runs.    Which gets back to the point being made.

PFF and fans individually rate Bodine as a very bad Center.   I agree.   

Why Bodine isn't replace is because he fits the value the organization puts on the position and does the job the coaches assign to good enough level as apart of the overall unit and scheme.     

 

That is the disconnect between PFF and fan film reviews vs. reality.   PFF will never be able to accurately grade a player because they have no idea as to the job the player is given.      This was typical of another whipping boy in Rey M.   A guy that couldn't cover his ass in space but a guy coordinator loved because he would slam into blockers and disrupt blocking schemes with 0 individual stats to show for it.

 

 

 

 

[Stripes]

I think the team greatly appreciates the cerebral aspect of Bodine's game, and I can respect that.  I'm willing to overlook some of his physical shortcomings (which I think are often overstated by this fanbase), but I am not willing to overlook bad snaps.  That hasn't quite seemed to be a thing this offseason, but if it rears its head again I'll have no energy to defend the guy.

He's below average, but he's not Ghiaciuc.

[HoosierCat]

31 minutes ago, AMPHAR said:

So I should judge this line on it's ability to block a Wishbone triple option? Run and Shoot?  Power trap and isolation gut runs? 

I thought we were judging it on the number of hits the QB took? 1st and 2nd in the league the past two years, etc.?

33 minutes ago, AMPHAR said:

I'll judge them by the way they block the scheme the team runs.  

Sounds like a plan. And that's a scheme that doesn't actually require them to pass block extensively most of the time. Indeed, we are reminded every single preseason how badly this team (allegedly) wants to run the ball, and how the line is built to run the ball.

36 minutes ago, AMPHAR said:

Why Bodine isn't replace is because he fits the value the organization puts on the position and does the job the coaches assign to good enough level as apart of the overall unit and scheme.    

Well, that's certainly a viable working theory. If we are to take the Bengals at their words and deeds -- that they are indeed focused on pounding the rock (this year's t-shirt slogan) and that they have designed a scheme that, among other things, minimizes time to throw -- then the value Bodine would supply would have to be in the run game. I would say there was more bad than good on display in that category in this game. Maybe it was just a bad night. But I think overall the scheme suffers, not benefits, from his play.

[AMPHAR]

1 hour ago, HoosierCat said:

I thought we were judging it on the number of hits the QB took? 1st and 2nd in the league the past two years, etc.?

Sounds like a plan. And that's a scheme that doesn't actually require them to pass block extensively most of the time. Indeed, we are reminded every single preseason how badly this team (allegedly) wants to run the ball, and how the line is built to run the ball.

Well, that's certainly a viable working theory. If we are to take the Bengals at their words and deeds -- that they are indeed focused on pounding the rock (this year's t-shirt slogan) and that they have designed a scheme that, among other things, minimizes time to throw -- then the value Bodine would supply would have to be in the run game. I would say there was more bad than good on display in that category in this game. Maybe it was just a bad night. But I think overall the scheme suffers, not benefits, from his play.

I don't know.   Seems to me they were scoring and gaining yards at a good rate right up until Dalton broke his thumb and they had to insert a QB with 0 starts to finish the season.

In 2014 with a struggling QB and a damaged receiving core they relied on the running game.   In 2013 they were a top offense with injured Cook and Robinson(?)

Bodine is just a cog in the machine.    Every team has them.   You only have so many roster spots and so much cap room.   It's the nature of the NFL message board,  upgrade the Center then it would be time to grind the axe about the Left guard or whatever.

All I know is this offensive line is considered among the best and well coached.  You can obviously see with a good amount of history that the team sees the Center's most important job to make calls and whatever intangible crap that won't appear on film.   This is a roster approach that has brought the fans the most successful regular season run the franchise has ever had.

They invest in tackles and make do with Centers and our QBs don't get hit as often as other team's QBs do.

 

 

 

 

[kingwilly]

4 hours ago, AMPHAR said:

Eh,  I don't know about all this.   That's just a disconnect between PFF and Fans film review between the actual reality of coaching/managing an offensive system.

Pressure comes from the edges more so than the center that's why they invest in tackles over center.   Bengal QBs don't get hit nearly as often as other QBs. 

Honestly, I'm struggling to make sense of your post. Pressure comes from where the line is weakest. You think teams won't be targeting Bodine with A-gap blitzes and stunts, rather than flog at Whit? You attack the weakest link, which here would be Bodine.

I think we can all agree Bodine is a barely average NFL center, who the coaches have convinced themselves is sufficient, if not "good" in their mind. All the rest (cap room, choosing a cheap, bad C to keep Whit, scheme bologna) is just noise.

[GapControl]

For me, the failure lies in taking an obvious project DE in the 2nd round named Hunt instead of a starting C .  That move happens bc the team is sticking with a guy at C who obviously was never going to be even above average.  It's evidence the Bengals believe the C position doesn't demand high draft picks or salary.  It shows that the brain trust think C can be developed by the team for their scheme despite not being a touted draft pick.  I can't see any reason to say the Bengals are right about this.

[kingwilly]

6 minutes ago, GapControl said:

For me, the failure lies in taking an obvious project DE in the 2nd round named Hunt instead of a starting C .  That move happens bc the team is sticking with a guy at C who obviously was never going to be even above average.  It's evidence the Bengals believe the C position doesn't demand high draft picks or salary.  It shows that the brain trust think C can be developed by the team for their scheme despite not being a touted draft pick.  I can't see any reason to say the Bengals are right about this.

Add the wrinkle of this being a team that does not admit to mistakes often, even in the face of gross incompetence (Bodine's abilities, or lack-thereof)

[ArmyBengal]

Quick, pick your second favorite team (Me=Texans) and name the starting o-linemen.
I know I can't do it.  Hell, I can't even remember some of the good ones from time to time.
There's only so many pro bowl level players that come at any position and no I don't count it if 3 guys refused to play and they ended up there by default.

The same could be said for safeties.  When was the last time they took a 1st round safety ??  DT ??  DE ?? Hint: A long d*mn time.
Does that mean they don't value those positions ??  What about the Centers taken higher than Bodine ??

How's Weston Richburg doing ??  (2nd round)
What about Marcus Martin ??  (3rd round)
Travis Swanson anyone ?? (3rd round)
Bryan Stork ?? (4th round)

Richburg is considered one of the better Centers out there, but what has that equated for the Giants ??
Martin has done what for the 49er's to help ??
Swanson ??  Is he still on IR ??
Stork started many games for the Patriots and even the Super Bowl, which they won.  I really liked him, but is he the be all, end all ??

Don't get me wrong, I think Bodine can improve, but what 4th round player can't entering their 3rd season ??
He's more than just some dude in my opinion and has been durable.  Can that be said for all players chosen ahead of him ??
Maybe there just haven't been players they considered much better than him to pull the trigger sooner ??
I simply think there are many factors we aren't even aware of as fans.  We have our top "pimped" and get pissed when they are over looked.
I remember liking Bacarri Rambo coming out of Georgia.  He went in the 6th round as an All-American.  We took Shawn Williams in the 3rd.
I hated that pick, but I think Rambo is a free agent, while Williams has turned into a starter.  I'm still waiting to be able to say, I told you so.
 

 

[redsbengalsbucks]

I agree Army, I was all on board this season for Core and I'm hoping that he turns into a good cog part of the team.  Saying that, there have quite a few players I was hoping for that have not made it in the NFL.

[AMPHAR]

14 hours ago, kingwilly said:

Honestly, I'm struggling to make sense of your post. Pressure comes from where the line is weakest. You think teams won't be targeting Bodine with A-gap blitzes and stunts, rather than flog at Whit? You attack the weakest link, which here would be Bodine.

I think we can all agree Bodine is a barely average NFL center, who the coaches have convinced themselves is sufficient, if not "good" in their mind. All the rest (cap room, choosing a cheap, bad C to keep Whit, scheme bologna) is just noise.

I do agree that Bodine is average at best and YES the coaches are just looking for sufficient out of that position.  

I don't believe Center is that big of a danger (as stated in this thread) in the reality of pass protection schemes when you are surrounded by two top quality guards and have a lock down left tackle.

But all things being equal in terms of pass protection, I'd rather have strength on the edges working inward.   That's a pretty standard belief in the NFL because draft prospects that project as a Left Tackle are more likely to be taken higher and paid more.   Then Right Tackles.    Then your guards.   Then Centers.

Cap room and roster spots are certainly more than noise if you are going to take a position they do not invest in very heavily and try to dump that at the feet of an offensive line coach like it is solely his fault.   There is a dedicated history of paying and drafting tackles higher and making do with Centers from this franchise.  By the way,  it's been working very well.

 

  

[AMPHAR]

14 hours ago, GapControl said:

For me, the failure lies in taking an obvious project DE in the 2nd round named Hunt instead of a starting C .  That move happens bc the team is sticking with a guy at C who obviously was never going to be even above average.  It's evidence the Bengals believe the C position doesn't demand high draft picks or salary.  It shows that the brain trust think C can be developed by the team for their scheme despite not being a touted draft pick.  I can't see any reason to say the Bengals are right about this.

NFL.com has detail wins/loss standings and also rankings of sacks and QB hits allowed.   I'd look there for those reasons to say they have been right.

[GapControl]

9 hours ago, AMPHAR said:

NFL.com has detail wins/loss standings and also rankings of sacks and QB hits allowed.   I'd look there for those reasons to say they have been right.

if it's the Dalton era, it's hard to distinguish if those stats are a result of a quick throwing offense or a great pass protecting line.  Hunts stats in no way prove he was a better selection than a 2nd round center would have been.  

I know in watching the games that there are times Dalton screens or dumps off to avoid pressure.  The more of these plays you have in your O, the less you can judge if your Oline can protect long enough on deep outs.  

Probably best to look at 3rd and long only, look at QB hits and such then scrambling etc.. In that situation, you'd think the O would need more time blocking.  Have to look at individual plays and then individual players and judge accordingly.  Hard to find that in a stat column.

[ArmyBengal]

I would venture to say it's hard to find many things in the stats column when judging from the outside looking in.
That's not a slap to the fans, but for the most part, we have no idea what exactly they mean when they say "fit", "scheme", and other terms thrown around.
I may be aware of what they are talking about, but have no idea in the execution of those ideas from their perspective.

For example, maybe they didn't see one of those Centers available when they took Hunt as a fit for the scheme.
Then again, maybe they just didn't have those players rated higher than Hunt and would have been a reach for them in the 2nd round.
By all accounts, it's the latter as Frederick went in the 1st that draft and then the next Center went off the board in the 4th round.

The fact they got a durable, smart Center in the 4th round should be celebrated.
That's not to say he can't improve either.  Who knows, maybe they go Center early next year.
I doubt it though.