Steelers @ Bengals II Pregame Thread/Game Thread

[HoosierCat]

The Posnanski piece was very good, thanks Hokie. The end nails it I think:

"But let’s say that the NFL had called Shazier and Porter for personal fouls, and the Bengals won the game. What are we talking about today? Maybe we’re talking about how the Steelers play dirty football, something that has been said for years. Maybe we’re talking about how Mike Tomlin so lost control of his team that he had TWO COACHES get personal foul penalties (offensive line coach Mike Munchak had received one earlier). Maybe we’re wondering about Tomlin’s humanity and feelings for his players considering he put a debilitated Ben Roethlisberger into the game barely a minute after it was clear Roethlisberger was much too hurt to play."

We here are understandably focused on the Bengals, but it isn't like the Steelers were saints out there last night. I know Steeler fans who have made exactly the same complaints about their team that Army makes here. That "Momlin" is too lax, lets the players do what they want and kisses Big Bens ass routinely. Frankly both organizations have these problems so we're going to see this kind of game again and again unless there's some kind of league intervention. And I have no idea what that might be.

[COB]

4 hours ago, Kazkal said:

...but ill take it over a Keith rivers any day of the week.

My thoughts exactly.  And to some extent, I think Marvin may be thinking the same thing.

How many years did we put up with Pittsburgh's bullshit?  When Kimo took out Carson's knee, the media reaction was kind of, "oh well, those Steelers sure play physical football!"  

When Ward just blatantly used the crown of his helmet to cheap shot a totally unawares Keith Rivers, breaking his jaw and concussing him, the media reaction was, "those Steelers play physical football!  Gotta keep your head on a swivel!"  Ward got fined but not suspended.  

When Terrance Garvin used the crown of his helmet on our punter, cheap shot to the face, broke his jaw and cracked a vertebrae, they didn't even flag it.  The NFL came out later and stated it should have been a flagrant hit on a defenseless player.  The media reaction?  They couldn't have cared less.  Same old refrain, "Wow, you have to protect yourself when playing the Steelers, they play so physical!"  

Same Steelers no matter who they're playing.  Remember Antonio Brown kicking the Browns punter in the face?  Fined, again, but no suspension.  The media reaction?  I remember a lot of the media guys laughing about it.  Sort of," that's what happens when a Cleveland Brown comes up against those physical Steelers!  They're SO physical!"   

That's just on the field.  The Joey Porter casino ambush, the Mike Mitchell shooting threat on twitter, what did the league do about those things?

I'm just plain tired of it.  I think Marvin and most of the Bengals are too.  

If the NFL doesn't like what has gone on in these last few games between the Bengals and the Steelers, they have no one to blame but themselves.  Since the league wouldn't stop it, I think the Bengals just decided to do it themselves.  

I take no pleasure in seeing Antonio Brown get knocked out.  If Shazier had been flagged and ejected for using the crown of his helmet, do you think that hit on Brown would have been made?  I doubt it.

And as far as the media goes, fuck them.  They idolized the Steelers for this cheap shit.  If Jim Nantz wants to act like Burfict is a mass murderer or something, it just reveals how uninformed he is regarding what has gone on between these teams for the last ten years.  Burfict is doing nothing that a good number of Steelers have'nt done before him.  That must be what the league wants, because they did nothing but fine a few guys in such a way that it was made very clear to everyone that, all other things being equal, paying twenty grand to knock out one of the other team's best players is well worth it.  

So any cries to cut Burfict are probably falling on deaf ears at PBS.  Marvin didn't seem too upset about Burfict's play.  In fact he may have noticed that Burfict had a great game.  He also may have noticed that at one time or another, Bell, Roethlisberger, and Brown, all missed significant parts or allof that playoff game, all thanks to none other than our own Vontaze Burfict.  There's a reason the Steelers hate Burfict so much.  

[HoosierCat]

Preach on, Brother COB!

[cincyhokie]

COB is DEAD ON.  It isn't about the objective facts in overly physical play, it's that the Steelers have been winners.  And the job of the media and the NFL is to pump up winners. The NFL wants to build it's brand.  What would it say about the league if their Superbowl champions played "cheap" and "dirty"?  

Sadly, this is nothing more than the human condition to play favorites.  To crown winners and shame losers.  It gives us a sense of direction.  Label the hero and the villain.  

Who's the hero?  The winner, obviously, right?  Who is the bad guy?  It's the loser.  Because if they win, they can't be doing anything wrong.

The truth is that the NFL is a violent game full of shady human beings doing things on a football field that they would be arrested for otherwise.  

Seeing the objective gray is not in the league's or the media's agenda.  Pick a winner and loser and follow the narrative.  Ignore the objective facts.

Rinse and repeat.

These stories, reports, and interviews with talking heads and "head officials" are nothing more than crafted propaganda.  A welcomed narrative that solidifies our craving for a black and white worldview.

[Walrus]

So, regardless of how "scripted" the story is, this is something the league has got to be concerned about. They can't have every matchup between Bengals and Steelers be this freak show of destruction, right? Because it's clearly gotten way out of control. So how do they force the teams to reign it in?

honestly, if that's the goal, they obviously need to go a little further than thier standard fines. You're not gonna like hearing this, but suspensions and forfeiture of draft picks are in clearly order. For both teams. Both teams have demonstrated a history here that could justify such action.

I highly doubt I will happen. Esp to the Steelers. Both sides need to see the other side receiving significant sanctions to avoid the need to take matters into their own hands on the field. I just don't think there's any other way of avoiding this same crap the next time we play. Marvin Lewis can't stop it. Mike Tomlin is not willing - he keeps winning so why should he. So it will go on in our next game. And the next time after that. And on, and on.

[HoosierCat]

Whatever hand-wringing the NFL does or will do publicly, behind the scenes it loves this kind of thing because it drives eyeballs, page clicks and ratings. TV ratings for the Bengals-Steelers game were through the roof. I will bet another giant chocolate chip cookie that the first Pitt-Cincy game next year will be in prime time.

[ArmyBengal]

I can certainly agree with the thought of what we would be talking about had Shazier and Porter gotten flagged as opposed to what happened.
However, it's not this was the first time during the game these guys acted like complete asshats. 
People are simply focusing on the last few events which led to the loss.

As I mentioned, I almost turned the game off at the end of the 3rd quarter because I was sickened from what I saw from the team chock full of "leaders".
Were the Steelers the typical shitbags we've come to expect ??  Sure they were, but they have to rise above that crap and stay focused.  That didn't happen.

Me being an angry person or what I would or wouldn't do is beside the point. (Oh yeah, I'm not as angry as I've portrayed here either).
These guys are paid handsomely to do their job and should know better.  They let themselves get pulled into what the Steelers do.
The Steelers and their coaches knew what they were doing when trying to get in the heads of the Bengals and it worked.

I also agree with the thought of how the media drives these situations, their own agendas, and what crap is spewed by the talking heads.
If there was thought from players and coaches about what could happen with these players, how come no one was pulling guys away from the situation?
Where were our own coaches in ensuring these "leaders" don't lose control of themselves?

I simply do not see how Marvin escapes from this unscathed.  I'm baffled and I've been a supporter of his through the years.
I don't know what's better, but at this point when considering players and coaches leaving, make the move.

I'm not mad about this.  Not in the least.  I'm embarrassed and disappointed in a team that was much better than what they displayed on the field in this game.
Adding the classless fans and their actions is almost more than I can handle as a fan.  I'm not going anywhere, but I'm disappointed as a fan of this team.

[Walrus]

1 hour ago, HoosierCat said:

Whatever hand-wringing the NFL does or will do publicly, behind the scenes it loves this kind of thing because it drives eyeballs, page clicks and ratings. TV ratings for the Bengals-Steelers game were through the roof. I will bet another giant chocolate chip cookie that the first Pitt-Cincy game next year will be in prime time.

Wonder if it'll be before or after Burfict's suspension is over... 

[gregcook68]

52 minutes ago, ArmyBengal said:

.Me being an angry person or what I would or wouldn't do is beside the point. (Oh yeah, I'm not as angry as I've portrayed here either).
These guys are paid handsomely to do their job and should know better. 

All I am saying Army, is, yes, they are called to the professional 'lime light' standard, I'm not disagreeing, but they are also people with emotions.  When you got Peko getting penalized for coming out onto the field in a rage, something is amiss, beyond folk you expect to act up!!

[cincyhokie]

1 hour ago, ArmyBengal said:

I can certainly agree with the thought of what we would be talking about had Shazier and Porter gotten flagged as opposed to what happened.
However, it's not this was the first time during the game these guys acted like complete asshats. 
People are simply focusing on the last few events which led to the loss.

As I mentioned, I almost turned the game off at the end of the 3rd quarter because I was sickened from what I saw from the team chock full of "leaders".
Were the Steelers the typical shitbags we've come to expect ??  Sure they were, but they have to rise above that crap and stay focused.  That didn't happen.

It's 2 separate issues.  

The Bengals, Marvin, Burfict...getting their heads out of their ass.  

And the NFL actually doing something to make sure there is less WWE on the field.

Sure, the Bengals can clean up their act, and they should.  But what's to stop the Steelers and their usual ways?  Breaking jaws, targeting heads, blowing up punters?  Coaches tripping punt returners, stepping onto fields, pulling hair.

I agree with COB, the Bengals got tired of being bullied.  And they happen to have a player on their team cut in the mold of old Steeler players.  Burfict.  

Because until the NFL steps in, don't expect the Bengals to stop participating in the mob style mentality.  Either that or it's back to taking the Steelers bullshit game after game.

[gregcook68]

I know the rules have changed, but has the mentality?  I always used to joke with my friends and dad when Jack Lambert was in his prime, how he almost looked a little psycho, and how, especially on defense, to be a really good defensive player you almost have to have a screw or two loose!

[ArmyBengal]

1 hour ago, cincyhokie said:

It's 2 separate issues.  

The Bengals, Marvin, Burfict...getting their heads out of their ass.  

And the NFL actually doing something to make sure there is less WWE on the field.

Sure, the Bengals can clean up their act, and they should.  But what's to stop the Steelers and their usual ways?  Breaking jaws, targeting heads, blowing up punters?  Coaches tripping punt returners, stepping onto fields, pulling hair.

I agree with COB, the Bengals got tired of being bullied.  And they happen to have a player on their team cut in the mold of old Steeler players.  Burfict.  

Because until the NFL steps in, don't expect the Bengals to stop participating in the mob style mentality.  Either that or it's back to taking the Steelers bullshit game after game.

Agree with two separate issues.

I think the NFL needs to do a better job of policing the crap that happens on the field as well, but this is secondary to what I believe is a more important issue of this team failing to maintain it's composure and professionalism.  Whitworth said those are things that are reinforced all season long and yet it doesn't happen.  If it's not happening, you either address the players failing or the coaches for failing to force compliance.

Sure the Bengals get tired of getting bullied, thing is they suck at trying to do anything about it.  Any and every time they have tried to either match the jawing or play the same game, they have failed miserably with this time being at the worst possible time.  Why participate in the mob style mentality when they obviously have no idea how to operate in it?  They need to dig down and walk away from that crap or have players capable of pulling guys away when they are acting like a complete ass.  Everyone was good with Burfict being a complete jerkoff for most of this game and many others during the season.  No excuse.

Maybe I'm being overly irritated by the whole situation, but I have never been one to handle a lack of discipline very well. 
It's just not in me to accept and or make excuses for it.
This Marvin Lewis led team has lacked that discipline on more than one occasion this season and it finally bit them at the worst possible moment.

People are simply focusing on the last couple of flags, but it's far more.

[HoosierCat]

9 minutes ago, ArmyBengal said:

People are simply focusing on the last couple of flags, but it's far more.

While I know this isn't what you were getting at, you're right: put the flags aside for a moment and look at the game, and you see that once again the Bengals went flat in the playoffs. The defense did its usual vanishing act, allowing a pair of no-name third-string RBs to trample all over them. The offense turned the ball over not once, not twice, not three times, but four times -- and they were lucky it wasn't more. I'll cut McCarron some slack because of the weather, but still, he completed barely 50% of his throws, had one pick and three fumbles. If that had been Dalton the calls for his red-haired scalp would be deafening.

Penalties or no, the sad fact is that once again this team didn't play well enough to win.

[kingwilly]

I guess iI have only too comments, after long, painful digestion:

 

1. ML and Hue blew the call after the Burfict INT. SImply kneel 3x, let Pitt both all their TOs, then kick the 45 yrd FG.go ahead 19-15, leaving Pitt with probably 80 yards, , no TOs, and a gimp arm Benji to led them with about 50 seconds. best, highest probability to win. why let anyone run the ball at all????? dumb dumb dumb. not worth the risk....

2. The officials lost total control after the Burfict hit on AB, which is very disappointing, again. to let the refs have any say in the outcome is disgraceful, for the NFL.we can go after ML for having wild card guys like Burfict on the team but he's way better to have, than not have. Poise and composure are not Jones or Burficts strong suit, and Joey porter is a world class thug but none of it had to happen, no reason for that to even come up had they done it right after the BURFICT PICK. people can moan all they want about burfcicts hit on AB, or Jones getting flagged but the game should have been, technically, over.

SO, that's it. Coaching failure as to what to do after the INT. that falls on ML and Hue. Obviously they couldn't have known Hill was going to eb stripped of the ball but, honestly, why even risk it. force Pitt to burn TOs, then give them 100 to go 80 yards with noodle arm benji, they'd have need a TD not a FG. much much more difficult, lower chance of happening.

WE fucked ourselves here. I've said it once, I'd it 100x, ML is a horrid gameday coach. He

my own MMQB session. I am happy with 12-4, McCarron did about as well as anyone Could hope. Andy could have made a big differencece, maybe making this a blow out.

 

oh well, Steelers will be routed next week, so at least there's that.

 

 

[ArmyBengal]

Something else that I forgot to mention in all my back and forth:

What they hell kind of 2 point conversion attempt was that ??  Maybe they didn't practice the play at all, but it clearly cost them.
With what would have put them up by 3 had they converted, I thought more would have gone into it.
Just an abortion of a football play right there.

[kingwilly]

17 minutes ago, ArmyBengal said:

Something else that I forgot to mention in all my back and forth:

What they hell kind of 2 point conversion attempt was that ??  Maybe they didn't practice the play at all, but it clearly cost them.
With what would have put them up by 3 had they converted, I thought more would have gone into it.
Just an abortion of a football play right there.

i didn't mind them going for 2, it was just a terrible play call. perhaps if hewitt was in they could have been more creative but why not get the ball to eifert or green. get mccarron in space and make it a run/pas option...Eifert / green / mccarron all moving at once, pull boling to make it look like a run, AJM sprint right, Eifert on low cross from left hash, hill PA then  into the spot route over goal line, and green into the corner to win a jump ball. guys this is rudimentary football. not sure what HUe was pondering...

[ArmyBengal]

Going for 2 was the absolute only call when up by 1, but the execution was horrible.
Everyone likes to point to the fumble and the flags, but that was a huge point in the game as well.
Convert and all those flags get the Steelers nothing better than overtime.

[HoosierCat]

2 minutes ago, ArmyBengal said:

Going for 2 was the absolute only call when up by 1, but the execution was horrible.
Everyone likes to point to the fumble and the flags, but that was a huge point in the game as well.
Convert and all those flags get the Steelers nothing better than overtime.

Yup, just another missed opportunity.

Mangled a two-point attempt.

Fumbled in FG range. Twice.

Fumbled inside 2 minutes with the lead trying to run out the clock.

They had so many chances, and blew every. Single. One.  It's amazing, really. This team has an absolute gift for imploding in January.

[volcom69]

5 minutes ago, HoosierCat said:

Yup, just another missed opportunity.

Mangled a two-point attempt.

Fumbled in FG range. Twice.

Fumbled inside 2 minutes with the lead trying to run out the clock.

They had so many chances, and blew every. Single. One.  It's amazing, really. This team has an absolute gift for imploding in January.

Who does this fall on though? Players, coaches, culture? I mean 5 years in a row of the same crap gets old. 

Maybe this year would have been different  with Dalton but we will never know. 

It just gets real annoying time to figure something out, and what is causing this. 

[kingwilly]

15 minutes ago, volcom69 said:

Who does this fall on though? Players, coaches, culture? I mean 5 years in a row of the same crap gets old. 

Maybe this year would have been different  with Dalton but we will never know. 

It just gets real annoying time to figure something out, and what is causing

D did their job, as far as I'm concerned. Dalton starts and is healthy this game is a 31-15 ending.

no emotional outbursts, no fucking up. that's just my opinion. Dalton is just better than AJM with this offense.

sign some of our FAs, get the offensive coordinator sorted quick, Zampese, hopefully.

 

reload some talent in draft, get Kirk and Dennard healthy and go back to work. it sucks donkey dicks for the season to end this way but WTF can be done. nothing. 12-4 is nothing to cry about. all things considered if it all worked out, the Bengals would have had a tough time with Carolina or AZ again...

[cincyhokie]

Check out Tomlin's reaction.

[volcom69]

So Lap was pretty pissed off last night, saying one of the refs in the game was the brother of a former Steeler coach! Woah didn't know that! 

[Vulch]

On January 9, 2016 11:55:22 PM, Kazkal said:

Wow....just wow my tears are real XD

This game will be forever known as the "Tears of Rain" game.

The gods were crying, the fans were crying the players were crying.

Its a heartbreaker like none other.

But dont worry Bengals. Your time will come and remeber this game and it will make it all the sweeter. Bengals win the  superbowl in next three years. I guarantee. 

F the steelers. Theyll get theirs. The worm will turn. Promise.

[COB]

It's Thursday.  When is the NFL planning to announce the pat on the back, in the form of an inconsequential fine or two, it will hand to the Steelers for their head hunting and coach involvement in last Saturday's game? They sure jumped on our guy in a hurry.  Can't imagine what the holdup is.

[cincyhokie]

3 minutes ago, COB said:

It's Thursday.  When is the NFL planning to announce the pat on the back, in the form of an inconsequential fine or two, it will hand to the Steelers for their head hunting and coach involvement in last Saturday's game? They sure jumped on our guy in a hurry.  Can't imagine what the holdup is.

Got to let the good guy, bad guy narrative play out.  Fining the Steelers at this point would detract from all the good talk and high TV ratings going on.