Bengals @ Patriots Game Thread

[HoosierCat]

This got lost in the wash but I found it tucked in at the bottom of Dehner's story. Ought to give Army a rueful chuckle.

Linebacker Sean Porter, a 2013 fourth-round pick, finally made his Bengals debut Sunday, and it lasted one play. Porter has battled injuries ever since arriving and in his first game back from a hamstring injury hurt his knee covering the opening kick, which actually was a touchback, and did not return.

Porter: the new Brandon Ghee.

[ArmyBengal]

I actually feel for Porter. I thought he was a very solid player coming out of Texas A&M, but has gotten bit every step of the way.

As for what happened last night, I don't really care to continue on about it. It is what it is.

Whether it's Marvin, the playcalling, the players or whatever.

I simply don't want to keep seeing it. They (Marvin, players, etc.) don't want to make much of it either.

I just wish they could figure it out. It appears to be in their heads more than they admit.

Opportunity missed, but lets check some stats. That always makes people happy.

3rd down opportunities ?? 0-7 4th down opportunities ?? 0-1

79 yards rushing and Hill only had two carries.

3 fumbles lost.

At least Dalton didn't throw the ball 50+ times.

Just think, had we not turned the ball over 3 times, dropped passed that hit them in the hands in the endzone, converted a 3rd down, not overthrow players, remembered to tackle players with the ball, and rush the passer, they were right in this game.

[COB]

Brady kills everyone who lets him stand in the pocket. He truly can't deal with pressure.

Guenther figured the Pats would be hot-reading and screening all night, so we hardly blitzed all night. Guenther got what he wanted, I guess he was seeing if Brady could adjust and throw downfield. He played the defense he wanted. That is it in my mind. They let Brady get going early, confidence builds, the crowd got into it, and you get what we had here last night, which is the way he wants it... well, he gets it. I don't like it any more than you men.

[HoosierCat]

IMHO there are a couple positive nuggets to be gleaned from last night.

For once, Dalton looked the part in prime time. Yes, he missed a couple throws. So did Brady. Overall he finished with two TDs (should have been three), no picks and a 117 rating. Hopefully that's a sign that he's gotten over his big stage jitters, even if the rest of the team hasn't.

The o-line continued to play mostly well. Moobs and Whit each had a costly false start. The former pushed them back five yards, after which Nuge would miss from 52 by about a foot. The latter may have cost them a first down when they came up five yards short of the ensuing third down play. But they kept Dalton mostly clean and Gio was averaging nearly five yards a carry in limited action.

Adam Jones is still dangerous returning punts.

That's about it.

[cincyhokie]

IMHO there are a couple positive nuggets to be gleaned from last night.

For once, Dalton looked the part in prime time. Yes, he missed a couple throws. So did Brady. Overall he finished with two TDs (should have been three), no picks and a 117 rating. Hopefully that's a sign that he's gotten over his big stage jitters, even if the rest of the team hasn't.

The o-line continued to play mostly well. Moobs and Whit each had a costly false start. The former pushed them back five yards, after which Nuge would miss from 52 by about a foot. The latter may have cost them a first down when they came up five yards short of the ensuing third down play. But they kept Dalton mostly clean and Gio was averaging nearly five yards a carry in limited action.

Adam Jones is still dangerous returning punts.

That's about it.

No significant injuries to key players.

[ArmyBengal]

Oh, I forgot to add that Lamur sucked last night as well. He's our cover LB that, well, couldn't cover to save his life.

On a side note and I didn't go through the whole game thread to see if it was mentioned but:
/>http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/11651388/patriots-join-bengals-devon-battle-pediatric-cancer?ex_cid=espnapi_public

Have to love how classy that was.

[Wraith]

Clearly none of it is Marvin's fault.

He is the constant through 11 years of this kind of failure, but, sure, it is everyone else and not him.

Got it.

(using the same level of sarcasm) Right, Marvin has won three division championships in 11 years and has made the playoffs 5 times with only 2 losing seasons, he is a lousy coach, clearly. Do you think they coach differently for prime time games then any other game? How do you explain the success in non-prime time regular season games, one would expect that if Marvin was a bad coach, bad coaching would be consistant right? If you want to say he is a bad coach when playing against other good coaches...the facts there are also unsupportable. The Bengals were 4-0 in the regular season against playoff teams last year. I am a network architect, it is my job to troubleshoot networks. I understand the logic of applying the common denominator to resolve an issue. I do it every day. That being said, at some point when that doesn't make a whole lot of sense in the face of other evidence you have to look for something else. In this case, each of these failures need to be examined independantly.

Prior to 2010 I think it has become clear to everyone that the team did not have the character to win in big games and does Marvin have a role in that issue, yes he does and has admitted the error of his ways. Since cleaning up the team in 2010 that has changed, I don't think anyone is making that claim anymore. So lets look at the failures in Prime Time games since 2010 (including playoffs).

In 2011 they had no prime time games but they did have a loss at Houston in the playoffs (the battle of rookie QBs). That game was a mismatch, a very young Cincy team was overmatched by Houston on the Road not too concerning.

In 2012 they had two Prime time games, both on the road, @ Baltimore a loss and @ Phily a win. Again nothing too concerning here, Baltimore went on to win the Super Bowl so a loss to them on the road is not looking too bad in hindsight. The playoff loss to Houston is worse because it is at home, this one goes on the list as a bad loss the first one we have so far.

In 2013 they had three Primetime games, a win over Pit at home and 2 losses on the road. The Miami loss was gauling because the Bengals had that game won, still a loss on the road to a quality opponent in overtime is not going to be a bad loss by anyones definition. The loss to Pit is a loss on the road to Pittsburgh and the Bengals are not the only team to have trouble there regardless whether the game is in Prime Time or not. Again the only bad loss is the home playoff game to SD which was inexplicable considering the this team handled SD fairly convincingly on the road just a few weeks earlier. Bad Loss #2.

I won't recoup what happened last night but I won't consider a loss to a team that hasn't lost to a divisional opponent at home in nearly 6 years a bad loss regardless of the pt. margin.

So where does that leave us. Two bad playoff losses and a handful of pretty explainable losses on the road to good teams (games the Bengals were not favored to win regardless of the time of day). Which brings me to my original point which is...it is hard to win games on the road vs. good teams in the NFL.

Going back to the fact that very few teams in todays NFL go into a good teams facility and beat them, may I remind you that the Bengals, themselves, are riding a 10 game regular season home winning streak and the margin of victory is as follows: vs. Pit +10, vs. GB +4, vs. NE +7, vs. NYJ +40, vs. Cle + 21, vs. IND +14, vs. MIN +28, vs. BAL +17, vs. ATL +14, vs. TEN + 26. That works out to an avg. margin of victory of 18.1 pts per game. Of these ten games, only the GB game was close.

It is easy to take a 2-7 record in primetime games (including the playoffs) as a sign of a larger problem but the reality is that aside from the home playoff games which admittedly were bad losses, this team as won the games in primetime that they were likely to win. The reason the marquee teams win more primetime games is that they play most of them at HOME and the Bengals have had exactly 1 regular season Prime Time game at home since the Dalton era has began and they won it.

[membengal]

Why is the option "Marvin is a lousy coach"?

What can't it be as simple as - good guy, good builder of rosters, but wholly incapable of doing what needs to be done to get this team ready for big games?

And, if he can't, find someone who can.

[cincyhokie]

Why is the option "Marvin is a lousy coach"?

What can't it be as simple as - good guy, good builder of rosters, but wholly incapable of doing what needs to be done to get this team ready for big games?

And, if he can't, find someone who can.

^^^^this

And hence the Bengal delima.

However, we'll get more chances to redeem this season. Let's see what happens. Either way, we're hardened fans. We'll be able to take it.

[membengal]

Wraith - did that team look remotely ready to play to YOU last night?

[HoosierCat]

Love him or hate him, the bottom line is that there's no alternative to Lewis right now. Early next year, depending on how things go, that may change.

In the meantime, it's up to the alleged professionals in the locker room to get their act together. They don't need pep talks, they need a good hard look in the mirror.

[Wraith]

Wraith - did that team look remotely ready to play to YOU last night?

I think the team played badly last night, I think they were outmuscled in the trenches and reacted very poorly to the Patriots running a hurry-up offense they had not shown previously. I also think this team won't go far in the playoffs without Burfict, Jones, Eifert, and Zeitler but fortunately we should see them back soon. This is a deep team but there are three players that we cannot afford to lose IMHO and they are Dalton, Burfict, and Whitworth. I think last night had 0 to do with coaching.

[membengal]

I think the prep was lacking, the team was not ready for what they faced, and that has everything to do with coaching.

[ArmyBengal]

I also don't like when someone brings up that (name your person) sucks and they are met with, "Well, who's the option to replace them with?".

I think Gresham sucks. I think he sucks big fat donkey balls and regardless of having the God given talent to take over a game, NEVER does.

However, we have no other options and are stuck with him for the time being. I'm simply hoping that's not the case moving forward.

He says he thinks the fans think he's the villian. Nope, no villian. Just a player that can't seem to focus when needed the most.

I'm sure others feel quite differently, but we are all entitled to an opinion.

Marvin ?? Yeah, I have my concerns with him and have made the comment more times than not that regardless of how I may feel, Mike Brown loves him some Marvin Lewis. It was the exact reason why all the, "Move Marvin to the GM spot and give Zimmer the head coaching spot" was nonsense. The same thing could be said this year if they fail again and Hue is the new Zimmer. I can't even say I would mind that in the least. I simply don't think it happens. Maybe another one and done in the playoffs would give that more worth, but we aren't there yet.

Did I mention Lamur sucked yesterday ?? No, I don't want him replaced either.

[Stripes]

I think it's perfectly reasonable to blame Marvin for this issue. I don't think it's relevant that prior Bengals coaches have also failed in this circumstance (or at least it doesn't rescue him from due criticism) unless those numbers can be validated with other franchises too. I can't know why it happens, but so many of these "big" games seem to feature a visibly energized opponent against a visibly flat Bengals team. Something is causing that, and it's probably directly attributable to how the coaching staff sets the tone for the games.

It's likely a moot point because I highly doubt Marvin is under any significant pressure. The Bengals have essentially made it clear that they don't attribute this problem to him, or that they think he has a viable plan in motion to fix it (or that it's all just bad luck -- a perspective I don't necessarily even find foolish). So we can only continue to watch and hope things change for the better.

We can at least acknowledge that this current core of Bengals talent has toppled other perceived psychological roadblocks before -- some predating Marvin and others originating during his tenure. The primetime/playoffs challenge is clearly giving them the most trouble. I'm glad they're finding ways to stay motivated throughout these repeated slips, because it would be so easy to fall into dejection as we fans so often do.

[Wraith]

I think Gresham has worn out his welcome for almost every Bengals fan and I agree with almost everything said about him. I think the plan was to phase him out and use him primarily as a blocker but that plan had to be scuttled after Eifert got hurt.

[cincyhokie]

I think it's perfectly reasonable to blame Marvin for this issue. I don't think it's relevant that prior Bengals coaches have also failed in this circumstance (or at least it doesn't rescue him from due criticism) unless those numbers can be validated with other franchises too. I can't know why it happens, but so many of these "big" games seem to feature a visibly energized opponent against a visibly flat Bengals team. Something is causing that, and it's probably directly attributable to how the coaching staff sets the tone for the games.

It's likely a moot point because I highly doubt Marvin is under any significant pressure. The Bengals have essentially made it clear that they don't attribute this problem to him, or that they think he has a viable plan in motion to fix it (or that it's all just bad luck -- a perspective I don't necessarily even find foolish). So we can only continue to watch and hope things change for the better.

We can at least acknowledge that this current core of Bengals talent has toppled other perceived psychological roadblocks before -- some predating Marvin and others originating during his tenure. The primetime/playoffs challenge is clearly giving them the most trouble. I'm glad they're finding ways to stay motivated throughout these repeated slips, because it would be so easy to fall into dejection as we fans so often do.

"It's likely a moot point because I highly doubt Marvin is under any significant pressure."

I think you answered it there, possibly. Not going to go on a Mike Brown rant by any means but commitment to excellence hasn't been one of the FO's fortes as of the past few decades.

[HoosierCat]

I think Gresham has worn out his welcome for almost every Bengals fan and I agree with almost everything said about him. I think the plan was to phase him out and use him primarily as a blocker but that plan had to be scuttled after Eifert got hurt.

He actually has improved as a blocker but just melts under any kind of pressure. I think he's done here too, but you never know. After all, they just extended Peko and IMO he's providing nothing this year. DT is rising rapidly on my draft board.

[gregcook68]

The Bengals have had this 'big stage' problem since the beginning, ESPECIALLY, in away games.

I'm just as mystified as the next person as to the 'whys' and 'what fors', but there have been way too many coaches and players involved in this organization since 1968, and out of the 47 years, only 2 of them were playoff successful, but still couldn't overcome the 'Big, Big Stage' of the Super Bowl!

I don't have an answer but I know it's pointless, to me, to try and conjure up blame with the franchise stats and circumstances involved.

Many wrote the Pats off after the Chiefs game, look how the Pats responded.

I think the focus now, is to show that same determination against Carolina. How will the Bengals respond?

They have 2 primetime games left, both at home. If, they make the playoffs, which I feel confident they will, they better pray for some mojo in the remaining 2 home primtime games to have a shot at believing they will win a playoff game.

[Wraith]

If my premise is to hold any water the Bengals will have to win their two remaining home Prime Time games...Cleveland always plays us tough and Denver is going to be a tricky game but I think they win both and put us on a firm footing going into the playoffs.

[HoosierCat]

I actually feel for Porter. I thought he was a very solid player coming out of Texas A&M, but has gotten bit every step of the way.

Per Hobs, early word is an ACL injury. Snakebit.

[HoosierCat]

The Bengals have had this 'big stage' problem since the beginning, ESPECIALLY, in away games.

I'm just as mystified as the next person as to the 'whys' and 'what fors', but there have been way too many coaches and players involved in this organization since 1968, and out of the 47 years, only 2 of them were playoff successful, but still couldn't overcome the 'Big, Big Stage' of the Super Bowl!

I don't have an answer but I know it's pointless, to me, to try and conjure up blame with the franchise stats and circumstances involved.

I think the bottom line is that what you don't do often you don't do well. Or to put it another way, practice makes perfect.

I submit that the Bengals don't perform well in prime-time games because their appearances in prime time are, relatively speaking, rare and usually under adverse (i.e. road) circumstances.

Since 1968, the Bengals have played in 58 regular-season prime-time games. Just 20 have been in Cincy, so they are at nearly a 2 to 1 ratio of home versus road games. In those 20 home games the Bengals are actually 12-8, including 5-3 under Marvin. In contrast they've won just 7 of 38 on the road.

In the same time frame (since '68), Pittsburgh has appeared in prime time 132 times. 53 of those have been home games, much closer to half. Likewise, the Eagles have played 103 prime-time games, nearly half (47) at home. Dallas has played in prime time 140 times, with 62 games at home. Chicago has 199 prime-time appearances, with 46 home games.

So why do the Bengals struggle in prime time? Because more often than not they are on the road against teams that have been there 2-3 times more often. It may be as simple as that.

[gregcook68]

The Bengals have had this 'big stage' problem since the beginning, ESPECIALLY, in away games.

I'm just as mystified as the next person as to the 'whys' and 'what fors', but there have been way too many coaches and players involved in this organization since 1968, and out of the 47 years, only 2 of them were playoff successful, but still couldn't overcome the 'Big, Big Stage' of the Super Bowl!

I don't have an answer but I know it's pointless, to me, to try and conjure up blame with the franchise stats and circumstances involved.

I think the bottom line is that what you don't do often you don't do well. Or to put it another way, practice makes perfect.

I submit that the Bengals don't perform well in prime-time games because their appearances in prime time are, relatively speaking, rare and usually under adverse (i.e. road) circumstances.

Since 1968, the Bengals have played in 58 regular-season prime-time games. Just 20 have been in Cincy, so they are at nearly a 2 to 1 ratio of home versus road games. In those 20 home games the Bengals are actually 12-8, including 5-3 under Marvin. In contrast they've won just 7 of 38 on the road.

In the same time frame (since '68), Pittsburgh has appeared in prime time 132 times. 53 of those have been home games, much closer to half. Likewise, the Eagles have played 103 prime-time games, nearly half (47) at home. Dallas has played in prime time 140 times, with 62 games at home. Chicago has 199 prime-time appearances, with 46 home games.

So why do the Bengals struggle in prime time? Because more often than not they are on the road against teams that have been there 2-3 times more often. It may be as simple as that.

Best explanation I've heard so far. Makes sense.

With that said Cat, they have 2 primetime games left, both at home. Browns and Broncos.

IF they can show some heart Sunday, and beat the Panthers soundly, like they did the Falcons and Titans, and continue on the level they are capable of, they have a much better chance of winning both primetime games that are left.

The Bronco game could even be for a seed contention, and IF they were to win the number one seed, and capture home field advantage through the playoffs, they would have a whole lot better chance on the playoff big stage at home, than away.

They were the number one seed in both the 1981 and 1988 seasons!

[Kazkal]

On the brightside of things we were the last undefeated team this year...on the down side WE NEED BURFICT.

[combatbengal]

How in the heck (not the word I wanted to use) do we go from one of the best teams if not the best in the NFL, undefeated, to playing like we've never played a game before. We have a bye week and forget how to catch the ball in the end zone, forget how to tackle, make stupid decisions on running the ball out of the end zone on kick offs and fumbling the ball to the other team. It's like we took two weeks off and didn't even practice or prepare for the game!!! Still scratching my head. I had to turn the game off after we were down 14-0.