Defending Dalton

[walzav29]

I was taking alot of Dalton abuse yesterday. Heres the way I look at it. Here's his career numbers so far

Career 32 629 1,044 60.2 7,067 6.77 TDs - 47 84 29 7 - rtg -83.9

In every category he went up from year 1 to year 2. Except for interceptions. But He had no #2, and no explosive running back all season. When Sanu was playing well, you could see the offense was getting better.

If you were told we would draft a rookie and in his 1st two seasons he would win 19 games go to a Pro Bowl and take your team to the playoffs twice. You would pass? Are they saying the Panthers should get a new QB? Eli Mannings numbers in his playoff game in his 2nd season were 10-18 113 yards and 3 interceptions. I think he has to do too much, but when I look at someone like Stafford. Who is beloved in Detroit. Who has been horrible for 3 out of 4 seasons. There is no question that he's their guy. But Dalton catches grief. Schaubs numbers weren't good either. The big difference? Arian Foster and Owen Daniels 9 receptions.

I hate the playoff hangover. I am glad the Bengals had the 1st game though. Now Vikings, Redskins, and the Colts are crying like us. Luck and RG3's numbers were bad yesterday. If they don't win a playoff game next year. Do Luck and RG3 suck?

[HoosierCat]

There is plenty for Dalton to work on between now and September. His footwork is still an issue and he is going to have to do more post snap reads, for example. But yeah, there's a lot of unwarranted hysteria out there right now.

[ArmyBengal]

I love what Dalton has done to this point and he has exceeded my expectations for sure.

When considering what he has had to worth with, it's hard to complain much:

1st and 2nd year WR's

No RB capable of easing things

Multiple changes on the o-line

OC who came in with no prior OC experience

However, there are things he needs to work on.

Overthrows, high throws, decision making, and holding onto the ball to long.

His deep ball accuracy without looking at stats didn't appear to be there this season.

The high throws might be a product of what he had in front of him so i'm not sure all the reasons for that.

Maybe decision making isn't the best description and maybe it's his confidence in making particular throws.

He certainly held onto the ball longer than he needed to this season and he paid for it in sacks.

All that being said, i'm still ok with him sticking around and building the team around him further.

I'm a MUCH bigger fan of that option, because we would just be bringing in another QB to deal with the same issues.

[walzav29]

I completely agree. He needs to work on things. But he has exceeding expectations so fast, that we assume he will do that for everything. He has done more for the Bengals than Cam, Gabbert, Locker, Ponder, Stafford, Bradford,Fitzpatrick,Cassel, Vick, Romo, Freeman,Palmer and Kolb have done for their teams.

We need to really think about how hard it is to go to the playoffs.

[ArmyBengal]

The people calling for his head are overreacting in my opinion.

I think it's easy to simply blame him due to his issues looking so huge in a big game.

I think those issues will get addressed and he continues to improve.

I'm not going to do is compare him to other QB's who are super athletic and mobile, because that's not Dalton.

It's easy to look at the uber-athletic guys like Newton, RGIII, and Wilson and want that from your own.

He's done better than most and he's still improving.

A 2nd year QB who all he's done is taken the Bengals to the playoffs in each of his seasons ??

I won't overlook the things I want him to improve, but I won't complain about it either.

[cincyhokie]

Sanu returns next season. Draft a stud RB. Add WR depth.

Dalton will look 10 times better.

[redsbengalsbucks]

The big issue I saw in the loss was a very dumb OC staying with a game plan for the entire 1st half, when it was obviously not working.

Why did they not run the ball more? 3-43 in the first half, if my RB has this amount of success in three carries and the passing game is doing less than nothing, he gets the ball 20 times minimum. Gruden had a terrible game. Last drive 3rd and long needing a TD with time running out: Gruden sends in his patented heave it and hope play. Sure if it is a catch your up by one, but the Texans get the ball back with time left. Why not try to get a few yards and make fourth down easier. Speaking of that on fourth down and a mile for the win, there should not be a route run by a WR that is 5 yards short of the first down, that would have been a good 3rd down play though.

I hope some team takes him away, he has not progressed in his play calling. There are better OC candidates out there. I thought he was going to be a good, innovative coach, but he has become almost as predictable as Brat was.

What a shame the D plays well enough to win if the offense could have only scored 13 points, but they can only muster up 6.

[Sea Ray]

The big issue I saw in the loss was a very dumb OC staying with a game plan for the entire 1st half, when it was obviously not working.

Why did they not run the ball more? 3-43 in the first half, if my RB has this amount of success in three carries and the passing game is doing less than nothing, he gets the ball 20 times minimum. Gruden had a terrible game. Last drive 3rd and long needing a TD with time running out: Gruden sends in his patented heave it and hope play. Sure if it is a catch your up by one, but the Texans get the ball back with time left. Why not try to get a few yards and make fourth down easier. Speaking of that on fourth down and a mile for the win, there should not be a route run by a WR that is 5 yards short of the first down, that would have been a good 3rd down play though.

I hope some team takes him away, he has not progressed in his play calling. There are better OC candidates out there. I thought he was going to be a good, innovative coach, but he has become almost as predictable as Brat was.

What a shame the D plays well enough to win if the offense could have only scored 13 points, but they can only muster up 6.

I'm not a fan of the gameplan but due to the defense not being able to get off the field, the O didn't have the ball enough to adjust its gameplan. The D allowed Foster and Daniels to control the clock and they kept our O on the sidelines

[redsbengalsbucks]

The big issue I saw in the loss was a very dumb OC staying with a game plan for the entire 1st half, when it was obviously not working.

Why did they not run the ball more? 3-43 in the first half, if my RB has this amount of success in three carries and the passing game is doing less than nothing, he gets the ball 20 times minimum. Gruden had a terrible game. Last drive 3rd and long needing a TD with time running out: Gruden sends in his patented heave it and hope play. Sure if it is a catch your up by one, but the Texans get the ball back with time left. Why not try to get a few yards and make fourth down easier. Speaking of that on fourth down and a mile for the win, there should not be a route run by a WR that is 5 yards short of the first down, that would have been a good 3rd down play though.

I hope some team takes him away, he has not progressed in his play calling. There are better OC candidates out there. I thought he was going to be a good, innovative coach, but he has become almost as predictable as Brat was.

What a shame the D plays well enough to win if the offense could have only scored 13 points, but they can only muster up 6.

I'm not a fan of the gameplan but due to the defense not being able to get off the field, the O didn't have the ball enough to adjust its gameplan. The D allowed Foster and Daniels to control the clock and they kept our O on the sidelines

I' m pretty sure I saw a lot more than three offensive plays in the first half, and do you support the play calling in the last set of downs. Gruden needs to go, I am tired of waiting for him to grow into the position.

You can also flip around your facts and state that if the Bengals had run the ball more often with anywhere near the success they had with the three attempts, Foster and Daniels would not have had so many touches. Come on the passing game was at negative yardage in the first half, but don't adjust anything just keep plugging away.

[ArmyBengal]

When we say how the defense failed, i'm just going to assume we mean Maualuga.

[HoosierCat]

I hope some team takes him away, he has not progressed in his play calling. There are better OC candidates out there. I thought he was going to be a good, innovative coach, but he has become almost as predictable as Brat was.

Which suggests to me that there might be more going on here than we know. Look, even after Brat got fired and Gruden came in talking WCO, Marvin was still going on about "chunk plays," which was what Brat's mad bomber approach was designed to generate. And we do know Mike Brown's opinion of the QB's role: he is the "queen bee" and the team will only go as far as he can taken them, blah blah blah. I don't think that it's a stretch to assume that the head coach Mike has kept around for 10 years agrees with his thinking. Heck, didn't a majority of this board spend 2010 screaming about how the Bengals went pass-happy that season, despite winning the division with a power rushing attack in 2009?

Bottom line, I think there is a lot of pressure on Gruden to throw the ball.

[ArmyBengal]

Bottom line, I think there is a lot of pressure on Gruden to throw the ball.

Which would make the fact they totally ignored AJ Green for the entire first half completely crazed.

[cincy9275]

When we say how the defense failed, i'm just going to assume we mean Maualuga.

if his play does not open this coaching staff eyes, then i don't know what will! . maualuga is not a starter in this league, he and cook need to be replaced. the texans attacked cook & rey because they knew who the weakest links on this team was.

[Stripes]

I think Shula's oft-stated concerns about Dalton's significant dropoff against capable defenses is well-stated, but I am not interested in replacing the guy yet. After all the dust has cleared, he remains a TWO-YEAR starter with agreeable numbers and two playoff appearances. That doesn't mean he is a certain star in the making, but the Bengals really have no choice but to stick by him. It'd be terribly irresponsible and unreasonable of them to replace him already considering the plays he's already made and the promise he clearly holds. I have faith that he can improve enough, both with better weapons and through his own growth, that he won't be a long-term liability. I hope he can.

[COB]

I completely agree. He needs to work on things. But he has exceeding expectations so fast, that we assume he will do that for everything. He has done more for the Bengals than Cam, Gabbert, Locker, Ponder, Stafford, Bradford,Fitzpatrick,Cassel, Vick, Romo, Freeman,Palmer and Kolb have done for their teams.

We need to really think about how hard it is to go to the playoffs.

I agree he's a decent player. We need a better player. I hope they bring someone in to learn while Dalton starts next year. Someone who can throw downfield. If Dalton's downfield are doesn't improve, AJ Green will be out of here so fast it will make Larry Fitzgerald's head spin.

[kingwilly]

I think Gruden tries to outhink himself.

Not throwing to Green, seemingly by design, appears to me to be a case of Gruden conceding that the Texans would focus on Green leaving the other targets to be available. Yes, it sounds like "Since they know that we know Green is our only playmaker, and we know that they will try to take him pout of the game, then we also know that should give us better match-ups for the other targets. So, we will use Green as a decoy while we focus on the other players to have success"

Problem is, no one could make a decent football play. BJGE was woeful. Gresham was a joke. The other WR's could not get good looks.

It was time for Dalton to make a few plays. He made none. To the point of how well he has done to date, yes, most of us can agree that this is better than expected. Two years, two playoffs is very good in the NFL, especially in Cincy. Well, now its time for the clud to get the right toolset and take pressure off Green. If Gresham cannot step up, considering he is a r1 pick who "should" be able to win his battles, then there is room to feature other TE's.

I think about what could have been had this team gotten a guy like Garcon or James Jones. Having another "Sanu-esque" guy could have been the difference, even with Gresham and BJGE. Instead, they gave us Tate and Binns.

I DVR'd the game and watched much of it again late last night. Dalton's pressure reads are about as bad as I've seen. He does not move well, he does not find the open guy, and he often does not even have an outlet. It seemed as if when the play broke down, either by coverage or pressure, it was a bust. I put a large chunk on Gruden. Very feast or famine scheme. This has to change, and Dalton has to improve his progressions and decision process.

[kingwilly]

When we say how the defense failed, i'm just going to assume we mean Maualuga.

if his play does not open this coaching staff eyes, then i don't know what will! . maualuga is not a starter in this league, he and cook need to be replaced. the texans attacked cook & rey because they knew who the weakest links on this team was.

I agree about Cook and Rey. Maybe Cook is not "back" but Rey does not have an excuse. It was time for him to be playing at a consistently high level. He did not/has not. When Howard returns, maybe thats when Burfict shifts over.

In Hobson's "Hot Stove" article, it mentions Dalton's string of triple digit passer ratings, and BJGE running well. Then it stopped, cosincidentally when Cook came back. Hmmm....

[ArmyBengal]

Again, James Jones was the guy I wanted and we didn't get.

He alone would have made a huge difference with the WR's this season.

Dalton would have had that other guy as a "go to" outside of Green.

Such is life and Sanu will be back in 2013.

There are a lot of what ifs with this team, but it's neither here nor there and that gets bothersome.

[volcom69]

They need to build around Dalton, he is a system guy, and I think they got away from what he does best. Dalton had horrible pocket presence his eyes never stay downfield, he never knows to run or stay, he needs to work on that big time. However Gruden does not help him out with that, against the rush he gives Dalton no check down, his screens are horrible, and he can't commit to the run. If you ask me this offense is such a mess right now they don't even know which way they are going. Play to Dalton's stengths stop making him try to be something he's not. If they want to fix it, Grudens needs fixed first, he needs to learn how to call plays, and do what Andy does best. Build this team around Dalton!

[redsbengalsbucks]

They need to build around Dalton, he is a system guy, and I think they got away from what he does best. Dalton had horrible pocket presence his eyes never stay downfield, he never knows to run or stay, he needs to work on that big time. However Gruden does not help him out with that, against the rush he gives Dalton no check down, his screens are horrible, and he can't commit to the run. If you ask me this offense is such a mess right now they don't even know which way they are going. Play to Dalton's stengths stop making him try to be something he's not. If they want to fix it, Grudens needs fixed first, he needs to learn how to call plays, and do what Andy does best. Build this team around Dalton!

I am tired of waiting for Gruden to grow into this type of OC, he needs to go and bring in someone that can use the players in the correct way.

[Stripes]

I think Dalton and Gruden are joined at the hip. They mustn't be together for their entire careers by any means, but Andy probably wouldn't be here in the first place if not for Jay. I have been as annoyed as anyone else with him in recent weeks, especially against Houston, but it wouldn't make much sense for the Bengals to try to replace him now. A new coordinator would have to have a very similar perception of what makes Dalton valuable, because I suspect plenty of them wouldn't like him. I'm willing to let them continue working together at least another season, because I think an OC change might be the worst thing the Bengals could do to Andy at this point.

[skyline]

What really stuck out to me was the difference in protection that the two QBs received (Dalton v. Schaub).

Schaub had so many instances where the pocket was as big as my house. They had our (excellent) d-line so spread out so far that Schaub didn't have anyone within sniffing distance of him.

For Dalton, even when the protection was good, it felt like he had 2 or 3 defenders that could have easily reached out and swatted the ball at any time. The pocket felt very claustrophobic and it made me nervous to watch. I can only imagine how it would make a young QB feel. Statistically, our o-line seemed to have a good game, but it didn't feel that way watching the game on TV. Maybe Dalton was only taking 3-step drop backs where Schaub was taking more like 5 and getting more separation from the line? I didn't pay close enough attention to know for sure.

[HoosierCat]

For Dalton, even when the protection was good, it felt like he had 2 or 3 defenders that could have easily reached out and swatted the ball at any time. The pocket felt very claustrophobic and it made me nervous to watch.

I've seen that often. Not sure if it's a deliberate strategy by defenses, a mush rush designed to wall off his vision and let defenders get their hands up, or an o-line that isn't very good at redirecting pass rushers. Or something else.

I would say maybe they could roll him out more, but I seem to recall them talking about that but not doing it. Or maybe my mind is just going...

[volcom69]

For Dalton, even when the protection was good, it felt like he had 2 or 3 defenders that could have easily reached out and swatted the ball at any time. The pocket felt very claustrophobic and it made me nervous to watch.

I've seen that often. Not sure if it's a deliberate strategy by defenses, a mush rush designed to wall off his vision and let defenders get their hands up, or an o-line that isn't very good at redirecting pass rushers. Or something else.

I would say maybe they could roll him out more, but I seem to recall them talking about that but not doing it. Or maybe my mind is just going...

Gruden just said that's something there going to work on, maybe he should have done it sooner. Dalton made a living in college doing that, which is why I can't understand why they havnt done it much.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

He's just not accurate enough, at 6.5 YPA he's getting by with a completion % that's acceptable-to-good this year, because he's throwing dinks and dunks (Shula's favorite). But that YPA is bad.

He wasn't like that in college (9.5 YPA, same comp % in low 60's), but put up similar yards, INT's and TD #'s.

The Bengals' had the 31st easiest schedule this year. 31st!!

I think Dalton played well against one good team all year long, no post season teams.

I guess you have to give him one more year to improve, oh well.