Bengals @ Texans Wild Card Weekend Pregame Thread

[volcom69]

Gruden had a gameplan. Unfortunatley for him, he also had Gresham. The first drive, 2nd down and Dalton throws a little high to Gresham, but it hits him in the hands. Gresham is so busy worrying about getting hit that he just drops it. Next play, third down, Gresham is targeted again, and again he fails. A defensive back got a hand in, and Gresham absolutely lost. He can't fight for the ball.

Our chance at grabbing momentum, at striking first, all thrown away because Germain f**king Gresham can't play hard football. He's just not tough enough. The announcers on tv said it well, near the end of the game they showed him unable to beat his defender and they said, "That's a battle Gresham has lost all day." Trade him for a mid round first and we'd be money ahead, get rid of that last CBA deal and get a guy on a new CBA deal, and get a better player to boot. We just have to find an NFL team that doesn't have a vcr, doesn't have scouts who watch our games, and doesn't know what the hell they're doing. Yes, someone call the Raiders.

I like pretty much all parts of this post. As bad as Dalton was at times in the game yesterday, I also had a hard time not wondering how it might have been different if Gresham does his job and catches the passes thrown to him to start the game. Move the chains, get Dalton in a rhythm, and maybe its different. He dropped balls all year too. It has been hugely frustrating.

The difference in the game yesterday was RB-TE vs LB dynamic. Say what you want about Gresham but he would have had a great day if he were as wide open as Owen Daniels was. Don't you think Dalton's day would have been different if he had a back like Foster to dump the ball off to especially if he could run for 20 yds before getting touched? Our ability to cover TEs and RBs in the passing game killed us and I'd like to hear from Marvin and Zim as to how that happened. That led to sustained drives for Hou and took away opportunities for our meager offense to get the ball.

I always thought that's what the WCO was alot of dump offs and screens, but Gruden never uses them, and when he does they get blown up. Wouldn't you think that would help Dalton with the pass rush? Best way to beat a rush is with screens and draws, but Gruden dosnt run them, I don't get it.

[HoosierCat]

I always thought that's what the WCO was alot of dump offs and screens, but Gruden never uses them, and when he does they get blown up. Wouldn't you think that would help Dalton with the pass rush? Best way to beat a rush is with screens and draws, but Gruden dosnt run them, I don't get it.

There's no offense thats predicated on dump-offs. You dump off the ball when the play called isn't there. As for screens, I think your question answers itself: Gruden doesn't run them because the team can't execute them.

The classic WCO mixes short, high-percentage passing with a stout running attack and the occasional shot downfield. Gruden's problem is that the running game is hit or miss and there's no reliable TE or possession WR (the games with Sanu being the exception) on the team. All he's got is bombs away.

Look at Schaub yesterday. He wasn't anything to write home about. He got pick-sixed by Hall and missed a wide-open Andre Johnson in the end zone from about 5 yards out. But he was successful because he has a short passing game named Owen Daniels and a great RB in Foster. (And it didn't hurt that they could target them at Maualuga, who reverted to first-half-of-the-season form yesterday.)

[volcom69]

I always thought that's what the WCO was alot of dump offs and screens, but Gruden never uses them, and when he does they get blown up. Wouldn't you think that would help Dalton with the pass rush? Best way to beat a rush is with screens and draws, but Gruden dosnt run them, I don't get it.

There's no offense thats predicated on dump-offs. You dump off the ball when the play called isn't there. As for screens, I think your question answers itself: Gruden doesn't run them because the team can't execute them.

The classic WCO mixes short, high-percentage passing with a stout running attack and the occasional shot downfield. Gruden's problem is that the running game is hit or miss and there's no reliable TE or possession WR (the games with Sanu being the exception) on the team. All he's got is bombs away.

Look at Schaub yesterday. He wasn't anything to write home about. He got pick-sixed by Hall and missed a wide-open Andre Johnson in the end zone from about 5 yards out. But he was successful because he has a short passing game named Owen Daniels and a great RB in Foster. (And it didn't hurt that they could target them at Maualuga, who reverted to first-half-of-the-season form yesterday.)

So then there not using the TEs correct either. I'm a huge fan of Charles why was he not running routes or his number not called. I think it's time he puts a true WCO play book in because what I have been seeing is not that. I think that's something this team needs to work on this offseason screens, dump offs something to protect Dalton from the blitz.

[volcom69]

Ok do here's my question Dalton is know as a quick release QB, and as a rythem QB? So are the bengals trying to change that? Why not play to his strengths?

[ShulaSteakhouse]

I read the same thing and it shows. Whenever teams pressure Dalton he gets happy feet and dosnt know to run, or get out of pocket, but his eyes are never down field, so he just takes the sacks. He has also missed 11 TDs this year to wide open guys, because he is not scanning the field. I don't know if you can fix that or not, but he needs to figure something out. He's an awesome QB when things are perfect, but things are not perfect every game.

Yeah his play takes a huge nose dive when he's facing elite level teams or top defenses, not just the typical poorer numbers most would experience, but he goes off a cliff in terms of performance.

Missing AJ in the end zone yesterday was unforgivable to me, they very likely win that game if he throws a catchable ball. Hard to get past that after not winning a playoff game in 22 years. If he's not accurate by now, he never will be, so I just think it's time to look for an alternative.

[HoosierCat]

Ok do here's my question Dalton is know as a quick release QB, and as a rythem QB? So are the bengals trying to change that? Why not play to his strengths?

Because this season they only had one guy other than Green who could create separation and be counted on to catch the ball consistently and he's on IR.

[kingwilly]

From ProFootballFocus.com:

He doesnt know what to do when pressure gets in his face.

The Bengals hid this well during the regular season. He faced pressure on only 25.7% of plays fourth-lowest of 38 qualifying quarterbacks within an offense that saw him get rid of the ball in 2.5 seconds or under on 60.8% of drop-backs (only Matt Hasselbeck and Chad Henne had a higher percentage). Yet in the playoffs you cant hide flaws so easily, and with the Texans aggressive defense came pressure on 40% of drop-backs.

He did not respond well.

Here he took two sacks, scrambled twice and completed only 3 of 10 attempts for 11 yards. Or 1.1 yards per attempt. There are more questions than answers with Dalton at this stage of his career, as his second postseason game highlighted.

And here is another player they just need to let walk: (from same article)

Of all the middle linebackers weve graded this year none has come out as poorly as Rey Maualuga (-3.4). He walked away from the regular season with the lowest grade of all inside linebackers, chiefly because of his problems in coverage.

So, with this being the playoffs he had a chance to show the world that we were wrong about him. Instead, he simply reinforced what weve been saying all year. In coverage he gave up three first downs on five balls thrown into his coverage, with a drop also saving him once, while he also missed a tackle on another. In the run game he made a nice play with 4:36 to go in the first quarter, beating James Casey to his inside for a tackle for a short gain, but outside of that did very little. We all saw how Wade Smith handled him on the touchdown run, but on the play before that it was Ben Jones who simply diverted him away. Indicative of the problems he continues to have at the second level.

These are two players that are constantly holding that team back from reaching its goals and potential, you can't have the worst ILB in the league, and expect to win playoff games.

Dalton and Rey are the guys who ML challenged to quit being "nice". Funny how their sub-par game amplifies their current level. I'm simply too irritated about Rey to even criticize him. Its all been said. He's just not NFL starter material.

Dalton had ample moments to take the game in his hands. He came up snake eyes. Not having a leit running back, not having Gresham make playoff efforts, and not having a reliable 2 and 3 WR is simply too much for Dalton to overcome right now. I also saw Cook get manhandled over and over and over. That alone is an epic issue, and one that puzzles me considering how RObinson played. ....Ugh.

If this were a big QB class, I'd be calling for taking anither arm. However, I think we are stuck with Dalton and they will stand by him for a stretch.

So, how does it get fixed on O?

1. Presumably, Sanu recovers fine. Thats a big start.

2. Jones showed he can play, but is not ready to play the 2. He is for spread sets, on the outside. 4,5 kind of guy only.

3. They need a very good RB who can work in this "scheme" if you can call it that. Maybe DeAngelo Williams, or Matt Forte, or or or. There will be some guys to look at but this is a big item to get right.

4. Gresham. FFS, I think this guy must bleed every month, with how he approaches the game. He did not even show up. I hope they bring in some guys who will push him, show him how to be a Pro.

5. Cook, buh-bye. Seen enough. Guy makes Gay-chick look serviceable. He has regressed into a very very bad Center. Not going to give Dalton more time, or get run game going if he continues to snap. Cook should be cut.

6. Green. AJ needs to tighten up his laces or something. He did not fight in this game. He seems so poised, almost too much so. Its ok to get some steam pumping. Fire guys up, fir yourself up.

Overall, this team can get much bettr on offense. Runing the ball is first step. Consistent play from WR corp is next. Time to make a shopping list and hit the draft anf FA markets for the next batch of ingredients.

The season was better than most were hoping for, though it ended with a bitter loss to what I considered a beatable Houston team.

[HoosierCat]

Good thoughts willy. From all I've read about Cook he's a lunchpail type, so I don't think it's a case of regression. More likely they just rushed him back from injury too quickly. I'd wait and see how he looks come training camp. That said, Robinson has made a case for himself and waving goodbye to Kyle would save about $1.5 million against the cap.

I doubt they look at RB in FA. BJGE will be the starter next year but they have to ugrade behind him. Scott and Peerman are too injury prone. Deep draft at RB this year.

Gresham's numbers are actually pretty good, but he's the anti-clutch player. Can I haz a new TE coach?

[cincyhokie]

Good thoughts willy. From all I've read about Cook he's a lunchpail type, so I don't think it's a case of regression. More likely they just rushed him back from injury too quickly. I'd wait and see how he looks come training camp. That said, Robinson has made a case for himself and waving goodbye to Kyle would save about $1.5 million against the cap.

I doubt they look at RB in FA. BJGE will be the starter next year but they have to ugrade behind him. Scott and Peerman are too injury prone. Deep draft at RB this year.

Gresham's numbers are actually pretty good, but he's the anti-clutch player. Can I haz a new TE coach?

I'll be saying this again and again. I don't want to see the Bengals go for a bargain late draft pick at RB. I want one of the top 3 RB's in the draft. That is the number one way to help Dalton. Then WR, then OL depth.

Stud RB. Please. Like a Doug Martin.

[HoosierCat]

I'll be saying this again and again. I don't want to see the Bengals go for a bargain late draft pick at RB. I want one of the top 3 RB's in the draft. That is the number one way to help Dalton. Then WR, then OL depth.

Stud RB. Please. Like a Doug Martin.

The problem is that there isn't a clear stud RB in the 2013 draft. There may not be even one taken in the first round. Gio Bernard is probably the No. 1 guy and he may be there at 37. If that's the way they go I won't complain but I won't have a fit if they don't, either. By way of example I was was looking at walterfootball's RB rankings earlier today. Heres how they break down:

RBs with 1-2 round grades: 2

2-3: 5

3-5: 5

4-6: 6

[cincyhokie]

I'll be saying this again and again. I don't want to see the Bengals go for a bargain late draft pick at RB. I want one of the top 3 RB's in the draft. That is the number one way to help Dalton. Then WR, then OL depth.

Stud RB. Please. Like a Doug Martin.

The problem is that there isn't a clear stud RB in the 2013 draft. There may not be even one taken in the first round. Gio Bernard is probably the No. 1 guy and he may be there at 37. If that's the way they go I won't complain but I won't have a fit if they don't, either. By way of example I was was looking at walterfootball's RB rankings earlier today. Heres how they break down:

RBs with 1-2 round grades: 2

2-3: 5

3-5: 5

4-6: 6

Interesting. I have faith that the scouting can get the right type of guy (can't believe I just said that). I don't have as much faith that they will make RB as much as a priority as I feel it should be.

What about that kid from SC? Lattimore? Is his knee completely shot?

[HoosierCat]

What about that kid from SC? Lattimore? Is his knee completely shot?

Reports are that he's rehabbing and hopes to be able to at least jog and catch some balls at the combine, but he may not be ready in September. Some team will spend a mid- to late-rounder on him, I'm sure.

[combatbengal]

Looks like the earliest that we can draft is at 19, if we land at that point. Not sure who will be there at that point. In my eyes, we need a RB, MLB, DB, WR, TE and a better 2nd string QB that will push Dalton for the starter. I can't remember the last time we had a good back up QB!!

[Sea Ray]

I always thought that's what the WCO was alot of dump offs and screens, but Gruden never uses them, and when he does they get blown up. Wouldn't you think that would help Dalton with the pass rush? Best way to beat a rush is with screens and draws, but Gruden dosnt run them, I don't get it.

There's no offense thats predicated on dump-offs. You dump off the ball when the play called isn't there. As for screens, I think your question answers itself: Gruden doesn't run them because the team can't execute them.

The classic WCO mixes short, high-percentage passing with a stout running attack and the occasional shot downfield. Gruden's problem is that the running game is hit or miss and there's no reliable TE or possession WR (the games with Sanu being the exception) on the team. All he's got is bombs away.

Look at Schaub yesterday. He wasn't anything to write home about. He got pick-sixed by Hall and missed a wide-open Andre Johnson in the end zone from about 5 yards out. But he was successful because he has a short passing game named Owen Daniels and a great RB in Foster. (And it didn't hurt that they could target them at Maualuga, who reverted to first-half-of-the-season form yesterday.)

Most NFL offenses live off the dump off. Schaub did yesterday, Peyton did in Indy, and Brady does in NE. Brady rarely throws downfield. He has no vertical threat. He's usually dumping off to Welker or a TE. Did you see todays game in DC? The biggest plays Russell Wilson had were dumpoffs to an uncovered TE or FB.

Here in Cincinnati we haven't had that for a long, long time. Brat was sold on the vertical passing game and that meant Carson was throwing downfield all day long to TJ and Chad. In the Bengals heyday they used dumpoffs to talented TEs like Dan Ross and Bob Trumpy and RBs like Essex Johnson and James Brooks. Dalton needs that option. I'm kind of wondering why Peerman wasn't used more. Maybe he's not healthy

[TJJackson]

defensively the texans o-line beat our d-line all day

Exactly right

The pressure seemed to be mostly coming in the middle, so as always

GIMME A LINEMAN

specifically a center and a guard (with OT experience, preferably) with the 2 of the first 4 picks

the other two picks can go one each to any of the following spots, in no particular order: rb, safety, cb, ilb. I know several of us think WR is a priority, and I understand that position, but by my thinking we have the WR2 on the roster (Sanu or MJ) already and need to let those two develop

[Sea Ray]

I read the same thing and it shows. Whenever teams pressure Dalton he gets happy feet and dosnt know to run, or get out of pocket, but his eyes are never down field, so he just takes the sacks. He has also missed 11 TDs this year to wide open guys, because he is not scanning the field. I don't know if you can fix that or not, but he needs to figure something out. He's an awesome QB when things are perfect, but things are not perfect every game.

Yeah his play takes a huge nose dive when he's facing elite level teams or top defenses, not just the typical poorer numbers most would experience, but he goes off a cliff in terms of performance.

Missing AJ in the end zone yesterday was unforgivable to me, they very likely win that game if he throws a catchable ball. Hard to get past that after not winning a playoff game in 22 years. If he's not accurate by now, he never will be, so I just think it's time to look for an alternative.

I would have loved to have seen AJ come down with that ball and I was pissed he didn't but as a Bengal fan, I in no way am certain that would have won the game. My guess is the Texans would have quickly gotten into FG range and kicked the game winner at the buzzer

[Sea Ray]

Looks like the earliest that we can draft is at 19, if we land at that point. Not sure who will be there at that point. In my eyes, we need a RB, MLB, DB, WR, TE and a better 2nd string QB that will push Dalton for the starter. I can't remember the last time we had a good back up QB!!

It's already set. We draft at #21

[HoosierCat]

Most NFL offenses live off the dump off.

I wouldn't put it quite that way, but I agree that most teams at least provide their QB with a dump off option, which the Bengals never seemed to do this season. Have BJGE or Gresham chip a guy at the line then run five yards and wave their hand. Maybe it was just a lack of faith in the o-line's blocking, maybe it was by design, I dunno but it ain't working.

[wpeldios]

Now that I have had a bit of time to calm down, I am going to say, I don't pin this as much on dalton as I do on gresham/gruden. Yes Dalton was pretty bad. But as far as a second year qb goes, would we really rather have Ponder, or Gabbert, or Locker? I believe he is servicable, but not great. The biggest problem with this game was the use Aj as a decoy strategy. They did not even look at him in the first half. Not only is he your best playmaker, he is your only real playmaker right now. On top of that ignoring the run(which has become a pattern this year) was just bad. And Cook should not have been in that game period. I understand not wanting someone to lose the job due to injury, but Robinson was just the better player. and there should be an open competition in camp between the two next year. Maualuga is done. That was absolutely terrible. Chop him grab a lb in the draft or bring in a fa. Just awful and it is a shame the rest of the defense performed well enough for this team to win.

And I want to end on this statement, my 2 year old nephew during the game yelled at the tv "I hope you die tate". Oh yeah I am making sure he grows up right there.

[ArmyBengal]

Dalton was infuriating yesterday. INFURIATING. However, not even close to how infuriating Gruden was. I hope he gets a HC gig very much.

How ?? How in the f*ck do you not target Green even one single time in the first half ?? How ?? Just give him a chance for f*cks sake.

Gresham was everything I hoped he wouldn't be and feared most from the offense. No hands, not clutch, not concerned.

He was used the way I hoped and thought they should. He just sucked. He's not a pro.

If a new TE is the solution, great, but he's a problem when Dalton needs the TE to be a solution.

This wasn't the first game Gresham sucked fat monkey nuts either. F*ck you for not showing up Gresham.

Not having Sanu really hurt this offense and that started long before this game. That should resolve itself and i'm not interested in taking a WR early when considering all of the higher priorities this team has. Address those and if it's still an issue next season, address it then. Again, thanks alot Gresham for not being a part of the solution for this problem either.

I wasn't aware the Texans o-line had 3 freakin' pro bowlers on it either.

How did I miss that prior to the game ?? They changed the whole dynamic of this game, so kudos to them.

Hey Maualuga !!! F*CK OFF YOU WORTHLESS EXCUSE FOR A MLB.

Seriously, go play in traffic you lazy f*ck.

Dalton deserves at least another season at a minimum.

While I think people like to minimize the things that are an issue for him, I think he will get better.

All that aside, put me in the camp that is excited about 2013.

I'm already jazzed thinking about our picks in the upcoming draft.

[volcom69]

Most NFL offenses live off the dump off.

I wouldn't put it quite that way, but I agree that most teams at least provide their QB with a dump off option, which the Bengals never seemed to do this season. Have BJGE or Gresham chip a guy at the line then run five yards and wave their hand. Maybe it was just a lack of faith in the o-line's blocking, maybe it was by design, I dunno but it ain't working.

Why not Charles, he has good hands and they never used him. So im just curious your thoughts on Grudens offense, do you believe its a WCO? Remember when Gruden was hired he promised alot of things, including a power running game. Well yesterday would have been the best time to use that power running game, as they were avg 6 yards a carry. However Gruden decided to let Dalton throw the ball even though he was stuggling and guys were stuggling to hold on to the ball. Run the ball over 25 times and under Marvin Lewis this team is a winner, so why get away from what wins for this team.

[TJJackson]

I like the offensive line moving forward, if Andre can be retained.

This is one area I will have to disagree with you on

The pass rush on Dalton was ferocious, and it wasn't just Watt applying said pressure. I was screaming "quick passes! quick passes! at the tv all game long.

We definitely need an upgrade on the OLine, and that upgrade should improve the production of all the skill positions

I'll add that the DLine chose a very bad day to have what I feel was their worst game of the year. But I am confident that this is a very capable group, with at least one additional very capable player waiting in the wings (Still), and so I don't feel this area needs to be addressed this year. I would like to re-sign MJ as long as it is not a top ten contract. Top 20, maybe. Extend Gilberry as a measure of insurance.

[HoosierCat]

[so im just curious your thoughts on Grudens offense, do you believe its a WCO?

The WCO has been so modified that everything is a WCO these days. What I think would help is consistency. Part of the team's success in the Palmer heydey was that they had a consistent cast, Chad, TJ, Henry, Reggie. The third WR spot changed (Henry, Washington, Walter) but the main cast stayed the same. It was when Chad went nuts and TJ left and the o-line broke down that it all went to heck. Hopefully next season the o-line doesn't have such crazy turnover and the O can settle down to a Green/Sanu/Jones set at WR. I think that will do wonders.

[TJJackson]

One thing I do want to point out and I am not suggesting it is a reason to celebrate or anything - but of the 4 losers on wildcard weekend, even in what I believe everyone will term a poor effort, we lost by the lowest point margin. We kept it the closest. This was nowhere near the beating we took last year.

and one other thing - they did not give up as past Bengals teams were prone to do.

This is a markedly better team than what we have suffered with for decades in so many ways, and I look for them to make the playoffs again next year.

[Sea Ray]

So im just curious your thoughts on Grudens offense, do you believe its a WCO? Remember when Gruden was hired he promised alot of things, including a power running game. Well yesterday would have been the best time to use that power running game, as they were avg 6 yards a carry. However Gruden decided to let Dalton throw the ball even though he was stuggling and guys were stuggling to hold on to the ball. Run the ball over 25 times and under Marvin Lewis this team is a winner, so why get away from what wins for this team.

I don't know what this offense is anymore but it is bad