Will Carson & TJ Be Successful in Oakland?

[COB]

If he could explain to Raiders fans why he decided to walk out and quit on the Bengals:

“Well it’s been a long eight years. I’ve been through a lot, seen a lot within that organization, and just decided. I definitely realized it was a selfish decision that I was making. I talked about it a lot with my family and decided that I’d like to continue to play but it was time to move on. And it was time for them to move on. I’m just excited and happy and blessed to be in the situation I’m in now playing for Coach Jackson and with this organization. I’m excited where this one is headed, and it’s also good where the Bengals organization is headed — they’re headed in a great direction, they’ve got a good young nucleus of players, they’re playing really well, and I think it worked out well for both organizations.”

Let me translate: "Well the NFL isn't as easy as college. I thought I could come in and be competing for the Super Bowl every year. I guess I didn't realize the team that drafts a guy first had the worst record the year before, and probably needs more than just my help to get to the big game. I grew impatient and selfish and didn't care about the other 50 guys on the team. I decided I wanted to try and move to a team I thought was more convenient for ME. I didn't want to be part of the solution, I wanted to ride on the coat tails of others that were already turning around an organization. The best option for me became available when I could go to the Raiders and Coach Hue Jackson. Coach Jackson will listen to ME and let ME get my way on things because we have a history. With the Raiders I can try to make it all about ME and not the team, plus I now live an hour away from my wife and can be home to bang that hot body almost every night. Win-win right? As for the Bengals, they are really making ME look like an ass. They drafted some great young players that I could have done a lot to help, but instead they are doing it all on their own and doing a damn fine job. Hopefully I can do something in Oakland, because it looks like the Bengals are headed in the right direction, and I will look like a complete douche and probably get raped by some big, face painted men in the parking lot of Oakland if I don't"

Perfect translation. How'd you get to be fluent in selfish douche? Oh yea, you spent the last 8 years listening to Carson and Chad, the same way the rest of us learned it.

[Sea Ray]

When will it hit Carson that the team he left has a better future than the one he's so excited to be with now? Who's trying harder to win?

[HoosierCat]

I know it's not the usual policy to post porn on these boards, however, all I can do is advise searay, COB, BB and all the rest of you to get a box of tissues and click this link.

/>http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=ArB.eY9IaI8VMNgNRswWl9Y5nYcB?slug=lc-carpenter_andy_dalton_bengals_revival_102611

[BengalszoneBilly]

I know it's not the usual policy to post porn on these boards, however, all I can do is advise searay, COB, BB and all the rest of you to get a box of tissues and click this link.

/>http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=ArB.eY9IaI8VMNgNRswWl9Y5nYcB?slug=lc-carpenter_andy_dalton_bengals_revival_102611

I liked it. Almost as much as I do Andy himself!

[HoosierCat]

I liked it. Almost as much as I do Andy himself!

Dalton is amazing. The only guy on the team more amazing is AJ Green. Green is performing on a level surpassing any rookie WR in Bengals history, including guys like Brown, Collinsworth and Isaac Curtis. And so far Dalton is in best-rookie-QB-in-NFL-history territory.

I am on the verge of making the trip down to cincy this year to catch a game just because this is once-in-a-lifetime stuff.

[jjakq27]

Doc's take on things...

http://news.cincinna...COL03/310270192

"At what point did Carson quit?" Bengals coach Marvin Lewis asks, repeating a similar question. "At some point last year he decided he didn't want to be here. This didn't happen at the end of the season. There was a point earlier on when he said, 'This isn't the place for me.'

Here's how Lewis explained that to me Thursday:

Players told him after the season that Palmer had quit.

"At some point, in their minds, Carson quit from them. People. . .felt they were trying to right the ship without him. At some point last year, he decided he didn't want to be here."

----------------------------

I talked to Les Carpenter Thursday. He said his question to Lewis, regarding Palmer’s “quitting" on the Bengals, was a reference to Nine’s trade demand in January. Carpenter said Lewis made it clear that Palmer quit earlier than that.

“There was no intent" to personally demean Palmer, Lewis told me. The coach said he planned to apologize to Palmer for the way the issue was handled in the story.

[Sea Ray]

Here's Daugherty's response. Am I the only one who thinks Doc is full of ****?

/>http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/AB/20111027/COL03/310270192/

[HoosierCat]

Here's Daugherty's response. Am I the only one who thinks Doc is full of ****?

/>http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/AB/20111027/COL03/310270192/

Probably not. But in this case I generally agree with him. Lewis has nothing to gain by talking about Palmer and, given that Palmer is just the biggest name on a long list of disgruntled guys, the organization could certainly stand to examine its ways.

[Sea Ray]

Here's Daugherty's response. Am I the only one who thinks Doc is full of ****?

/>http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/AB/20111027/COL03/310270192/

Probably not. But in this case I generally agree with him. Lewis has nothing to gain by talking about Palmer and, given that Palmer is just the biggest name on a long list of disgruntled guys, the organization could certainly stand to examine its ways.

I would hope Marvin is reviewing his ways but I think Doc's using Mike Brown as an easy target. Sure Mike Brown is who he is but he built this team around Carson with the idea that Carson wouldn't quit on him. He gave Carson Gresham, TO, and Shipley after a playoff season. He also gave him his brother. They gave Carson a great deal as I see it. I'm glad to hear Marvin spew the truth for once rather than his usual empty comments. How many times did we hear Marvin say in response to a Carson question "he's retired".

[COB]

I agree that Marvin should just keep his mouth shut. Having said that, consider Marvin's circumstances. Having your starting quarterback mentally check out partway through a season is very unusual in NFL football. It's such an all-in game that coaches and teammates are simply not prepared to deal with a guy who decides he doesn't want to do this anymore.

I think it was the Saints who had a lineman do this a couple weeks ago. He just decided he'd had enough, and he retired in mid-season. A little unusual, but far different from a guy who makes that decision and continues to not only play, but to "lead" his team the rest of the season.

I believe Marvin has an idea of what he wants in a football team. It doesn't include guys like Chad and reality shows. In that respect, I think Marvin was probably a little pissed at Carson. He's thinking we built this team around you, we brought T.O. in (not a guy Marvin would have brought in had Carson not lobbied for it), and when the going gets tough, you just decide to quit? I'm sure Marvin is also reflecting on his own experience last season, particularly during that 10 game losing streak. Who wouldn't want out of that s**t? Who wouldn't want to quit? But Marvin and everyone else on the team and the staff hung in there.

Marvin should keep his mouth shut. But I pardon him for getting a little chippy when the golden boy just tells the world, "I'm too good to play here anymore, and by the way I decided that in the middle of last season."

[COB]

Doc's full of crap as usual. He has nothing new or interesting to say. Five guys on this message board could write a more entertaining column than Paul Daugherty does.

[HoosierCat]

I'm glad to hear Marvin spew the truth for once rather than his usual empty comments. How many times did we hear Marvin say in response to a Carson question "he's retired".

I know. And I agree with COB that, all things considered, you can't blame Lewis for getting a little chippy. But feeding more fuel into the Palmer fire it isn't going to do Lewis or the Bengals any good. When he retires from the team and pens his tell-all biography, let 'er rip. For now, IMHO it's time for him to take his own advice and just do his job, which no longer includes talking about Carson Palmer.

[HairOnFire]

I know it's not the usual policy to post porn on these boards, however, all I can do is advise searay, COB, BB and all the rest of you to get a box of tissues and click this link.

/>http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=ArB.eY9IaI8VMNgNRswWl9Y5nYcB?slug=lc-carpenter_andy_dalton_bengals_revival_102611

I was sort of hoping your link would take me to a picture of Rob Gronkowski posing with a porn star, but THIS was better.

[HairOnFire]

I agree that Marvin should just keep his mouth shut.

I don't. Palmer has admitted his plan was calculated, selfish, driven by his advancing age, as well as his vague feelings that it was time to move on. Well that's not simply good enough when you're talking about the impact his "selfish" actions had on others, none of whom Palmer is willing to publically criticize. In fact, in retrospect I think it seems plausible to suggest Palmer was actively attempting to force his way off the Bengals from the moment Hue Jackson was hired in Oakland.

Furthermore, everytime I read where someone claims Palmer was justified to do what he did they attempt to do so by blaming the presumably intolerable way the Bengals do business. But they never bother to state what those intolerable business practices might be. For example, in his defense of Palmer our boy Daugherty doesn't bother naming a single reason that might justify Palmer's actions. Probably because Daugherty knows none of his tired accusations from the past would come close to justifying Palmer's incredibly unprofessional behavior.

Last point. I'm not the least bit suprised to hear Lewis claim Palmer quit during last season. After all, I said the same thing last year and even pointed to a defining moment during a game when I felt Palmer's facade had crumbled. A moment that prompted me to declare openly that Lewis had lost Palmer for good. Remember? (Hint: Last drive/timeout fiasco)

[HoosierCat]

Furthermore, everytime I read where someone claims Palmer was justified to do what he did they attempt to do so by blaming the presumably intolerable way the Bengals do business. But they never bother to state what those intolerable business practices might be.

All the more reason to just zip it. The Bengals' reputation for incompetence is legendary. And I mean that literally: like many legends, there's a core of fact to the mythos, but belief in the team's status and abilities long ago overwhelmed any appeal to reason or data. They're the worst franchise in the NFL, the worst franchise in sports, have the worst owner of all time, etc. They're the polar opposite of Dos Equis' "most interesting man in the world." In short, the Bungles.

Any attempt to argue that Carson quitting wasn't their fault, even if it's 100% true, will be met with disbelief and mockery. The legend must be smashed first, and the only way to do that is for the team to keep winning. Those W's going up week after week make a more powerful statement than anything Marvin can say. And every one of them chips away at that legend and makes Carson look dumber and dumber in the process.

And if they shut up, play football and win, they won't have to say anything. The media will gravitate toward the conclusion that Carson was at fault all on their own.

[HairOnFire]

All the more reason to just zip it. The Bengals' reputation for incompetence is legendary. And I mean that literally: like many legends, there's a core of fact to the mythos, but belief in the team's status and abilities long ago overwhelmed any appeal to reason or data.

Fair enough. Now ask yourself how the Bengals reputation came to be in the first place.

IMHO the Bengals biggest problem in regards to their sad and sorry reputation is based in their habit of saying absolutely nothing in response to the deliberately vague complaints made by a few of their players.

Granted, they're smart to allow players like Chad to pop off like a fool for months at a time without responding precisely because their silence prompted Chad to make an even bigger fool of himself. Thus, his idiocy was even easier for everyone to dismiss. But the downside to any team ignoring a players unprofessional behavior is rooted in the way observers tend to give others the benefit of the doubt. So when Chad acted like a crazy douchebag the public wondered who forced him to be that way...conveniently ignoring how Chad was "that way" even before the Bengals drafted him.

In regards to the Palmer situation, I'd say the Bengals have shown remarkable restraint in how they've responded, or not responded, to what has to be described as a watershed event in Bengals history. To not comment on the events that took place, or the personalities involved, isn't plausible. The Bengals simply have to respond to events, news leaks, and reporter questions as they come. And quite frankly, they have an obligation to their fanbase to explain both their own actions and those of a player who had until very recently been propped up as the teams core player.

And for the Palmer apologists amongst us let me add this. Palmer's supporters have repeatedly claimed he owes the Bengals nothing and thus is thereby justified in taking any action he desires. Well, I say the opposite is also true. The Bengals owe Palmer nothing further. And yeah, owing him nothing includes no longer giving any consideration to Palmer's reputation, which due to his own actions is now in question here, there, and mostly everywhere.

Furthermore, I'd agree there's a huge difference between a player who quits on his teammates after the end of a frustrating season and one who quits during the season. Because the former might be described as someone who is simply no longer capable of being part of the solution. But the latter is a player who is best described as being the problem himself.

Finally, when considering a reputation it's one thing to acknowledge what it is and another thing altogether to agree with or accept that reputation as fact. And that includes judging the very people who are at least partially responsible for crafting that negative reputation. For example, the Boomer Esiasons and Paul Daughertys of the world.

And there's the rub because Bengal players have repeatedly said Boomer's anger stems from his dealings with Brown as a union rep, a job he was too immature to do well precisely because he responded to bitter labor negotiations with Brown very personally. As for Daugherty, I remind myself how he's still writing about the vast expanses of uncovered raw concrete wall surrounding the field at PBS....something that hasn't been true for years and years and years.

[HairOnFire]

Any attempt to argue that Carson quitting wasn't their fault, even if it's 100% true, will be met with disbelief and mockery.

That's on you and anyone else who would ignore the truth simply because the legend is so widespread.

[Spor_tees]

Any attempt to argue that Carson quitting wasn't their fault, even if it's 100% true, will be met with disbelief and mockery.

That's on you and anyone else who would ignore the truth simply because the legend is so widespread.

Where there is smoke there is fire?

If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, it must be a duck?

How many of this sayings do you need? Maybe a few weird bird pictures?

There are several stances that can be taken here. Some could say that the Bengal's organization never responded to all this negative press from players and ex-players, because the accusations were true? But then there is those who could say that by the Bengals lack of self defense they themselves created a monster of malcontent that snowballed through the years. One bad attitude and press release went unopposed and then as soon as a player in the future felt mistreated he immediately referred to players of the past and their own complaints. As years went by those complaints built into something of a legend, or I guess just a stereotype of Bengal's frugalness or mismanagement.

Really as fans we will never really know the true story to all these events because only those that were actually there and heard the words straight from the horses mouth can say for sure. When you take into account so many instances it becomes almost a game of 'telephone' where the end result of what was originally said years ago has become something totally different today. In my mind the only thing that has become hard to understand is how you can have such a long list of guys not be happy with the organization. Lee Johnson was on of them and I wouldn't exactly put him in the Corey Dillon, Carl Pickens, and Chad Johnson mantra. I don't know what the true answer is, but I would like to see Mike Brown gone not because of this type of thing, but more because of the losing ways he has brought with his ownership of the team. Eventually the owner needs to assume some responsibility for the lack of success of a team, especially when the owner is also the defacto GM. He can't continue to hire and fire people for lack of production, when the only thing that has been constant through all the losing years has been him.

[HoosierCat]

Any attempt to argue that Carson quitting wasn't their fault, even if it's 100% true, will be met with disbelief and mockery.

That's on you and anyone else who would ignore the truth simply because the legend is so widespread.

In the case of Carson Palmer, I'm not ignoring the truth, which is that this mess was and is on both sides. That was tacitly acknowledged by Marvin Lewis in the quickness with which he backtracked on his "Carson quit" remarks, claimed he was taken out of context and even called Palmer to apologize.

As to the question of whether the Bengals should be more aggressive in responding to the "deliberately vague" complaints made by some former players, the trouble there is simply that the front office doesn't have much standing to insist those players are wrong after two decades of dismal results.

[HoosierCat]

At the risk of getting this thread back on track, here's some interesting data from CHFF. They took a look at what QBs protected the ball the best. They set 1,500 passes attempted as their cutoff point, resulting in a list of 166 NFL QBs. Despite his rep as a turnover machine, Palmer actually ranks pretty well. He is No. 35 on the list. For comparison purposes, Ken Anderson is 33 and Boomer Esiason is 93.

[HoosierCat]

Per Schefter on the MNF countdown show, Golden Boy wants Douchmanzadeh in the slot and so the Raiders are going to work him out.

[Spor_tees]

Per Schefter on the MNF countdown show, Golden Boy wants Douchmanzadeh in the slot and so the Raiders are going to work him out.

PFT says they already worked him out, and he has a physical Tuesday. I would say it is pretty much a done deal. They also point out how funny it is that Carson made excuses to not sign TO yet here they are bringing in TJ. This might put TO in the nut house.

[jjakq27]

http://inagist.com/VittorioTafur/131117323389116416/

I heard this mentioned on the radio yesterday. Did he ever invite the troops over to his house in Cincinnati?

[Passepartout]

I know that his first game with Oakland was a disaster. As hopefully he will get to know the Raiders scheme.

[Spor_tees]

I know that his first game with Oakland was a disaster. As hopefully he will get to know the Raiders scheme.

Has the Raiders had any good QBs since Rich Gannon? I think Kerry Collins had a few good games but that's it.