Preseason Week 1: Lions v. Bengals Game Thread

[jjakq27]

Hey Shula, you forgot to mention part-time matador and right tackle Andre Smith. What a fkn joke.

[ct_bengal]

you guys need to stop bugging out, what the hell were you expecting from this preseason game for crying out loud? Growing pains, this is what happens to young teams with 2 weeks practice. The chiefs had 77 yards, 77 YARDS OFFENSIVELY, so i think dalton looked ok after his nerves settled and that was what this game was about more than anything else. Detroit came out fired up and give them credit, that one qb had a john elway-esque flip into the endzone in freakin preseason, hell they went 4-0 preseason the year they went 0-16 in the regular season.

[Trevor]

I'm not freakin out, BUT there was no reason for me to look forward to the season... Andy looked great, throwing 5 yd curls to aj. lol my biggest dissappoinment was our D! Terrible! and the oline got raped although detroits dline in top 3 easy. But still, Ced looked good i really hope he stays healthy. Because he needs to get at least 20 carries a game! And why in the F*** did we not get duece luitui. As fat as he WAS he was still a million times better than nate friggin livings. put otis in there or the new guy from eagls, come on marvin, fix this crap

[ct_bengal]

I'm not freakin out, BUT there was no reason for me to look forward to the season... Andy looked great, throwing 5 yd curls to aj. lol my biggest dissappoinment was our D! Terrible! and the oline got raped although detroits dline in top 3 easy. But still, Ced looked good i really hope he stays healthy. Because he needs to get at least 20 carries a game! And why in the F*** did we not get duece luitui. As fat as he WAS he was still a million times better than nate friggin livings. put otis in there or the new guy from eagls, come on marvin, fix this crap

agreed Livings has got to go to the bench idk why he's in there. Holding, blowing blocks, how does he still start games?

[cincy9275]

Hey Shula, you forgot to mention part-time matador and right tackle Andre Smith. What a fkn joke.

you talking about a coach who thought the dancing bear was the best right tackle in the nfl! the same guy who thinks livings is a beast and lets not forget about guys like bluto and melvin tuten. who our coach really thought were good o-line men.

you could give paul 1st rd talent at every position on the o-line. they would still look like the bunch of buffoons! because the man is f**king clueless. paul has no business what so ever to be a nfl coach! hell the ufl would not even what him! him and coaches like him are the #1 reason this team is and has been a f**king joke.

also loved how last night they showed gruden asking bruce what happen. you could see by bruces reaction that he was saying. i can't do anything when my center is being pushed in to me!

[derekshank]

I have to say I'm kind of impressed with Dalton. In his very first NFL game, he threw an INT on his 1st attempt. His 2nd attempt was a badly thrown incompletion. His 3rd attempt was a sack (and 3 players later, nearly had his head twisted off by Suh).

That's the kind of start that would "ruin" most people. But Dalton came back and completed 11 of 13 passes after that.

As for the O-Line... SSDY. Not a good pass-blocking line, but it seemed like they were run blocking pretty well for Benson. Gruden said this would be a run-first team. I hope he stands by that.

[cincy9275]

from the .com

"Obviously it's not good enough. We've got a long way to go as we knew we did," said offensive coordinator Jay Gruden. "He didn't have a chance on some of those plays. He's got to get better. We all have to get better."

If they want Dalton to become the quarterback they think he can become, they need to protect him. He had Carson Palmer's cool, but David Klingler's blocking. The Bengals' inability in the interior to handle the Lions' tackle tandem of Ndamukong Suh and Corey Williams was glaring and jarring. On Thursday night, head coach Marvin Lewis challenged his offensive line to step up against a line that generated 39 sacks last season, and it didn't happen.

that's because the guy coaching them is a complete f**king joke! dam it it pisses me off that paul is still on this staff WTF? marvin fire this guy, he is going to get your qb f**king killed!

[derekshank]

On Thursday night, head coach Marvin Lewis challenged his offensive line to step up against a line that generated 39 sacks last season, and it didn't happen.

that's because the guy coaching them is a complete f**king joke! dam it it pisses me off that paul is still on this staff WTF? marvin fire this guy, he is going to get your qb f**king killed!

We know your opinion. Your monotonous, one-note rant is quite boring.

The reason this team won't for to the SuperBowl has nothing to do with a talent deficiency. It's Paul Alexander's fault. We get it. Thanks.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

That's the kind of start that would "ruin" most people. But Dalton came back and completed 11 of 13 passes after that.

And how many were 3-step drops and thrown for about 6 yards? That's basically an admission that they can't throw downfield. Not slamming the kid, there's just no point in rushing him when the O-line is made of crepe paper.

[derekshank]

That's the kind of start that would "ruin" most people. But Dalton came back and completed 11 of 13 passes after that.

And how many were 3-step drops and thrown for about 6 yards? That's basically an admission that they can't throw downfield. Not slamming the kid, there's just no point in rushing him when the O-line is made of crepe paper.

Does it matter? He didn't get rattled. He didn't rush throws. He stayed calm and accurate (he currently has the highest completion percentage in the NFL).

I get it. He didn't complete any bombs... but that's not really why he was drafted, is it?

We were told this would be a run-first team, and the passing game would be more quick than explosive. I'm pretty happy with that performance from a rookie QB in his first game. And that offensive philosophy is the best you can hope for with this O-Line.

We saw the O-Line at it's worst against one of the best D-Lines in the NFL... and Dalton still managed to build some confidence. I'm pretty impressed, even if others aren't.

[volcom69]

I have to say I'm kind of impressed with Dalton. In his very first NFL game, he threw an INT on his 1st attempt. His 2nd attempt was a badly thrown incompletion. His 3rd attempt was a sack (and 3 players later, nearly had his head twisted off by Suh).

That's the kind of start that would "ruin" most people. But Dalton came back and completed 11 of 13 passes after that.

As for the O-Line... SSDY. Not a good pass-blocking line, but it seemed like they were run blocking pretty well for Benson. Gruden said this would be a run-first team. I hope he stands by that.

I too was impressed with how Dalton came back and didnt let the bad phase him. I dont understand what people were expecting, Payton Manning on his first drive??? I mean come on with the lockout this is his second week, the o-line didnt help him at all, i thought he did pretty good. Now you would think after this game, that some kind of change will be made on the o-line.

For those who think Leon Hall sucks or he was a bust, then explain to me to how in 09 he was the corner that was shutting down everyones #1 reciever?? Oh and go look at Jjoe and tell me how many times he would get burnt by recievers, ill give you a hint it was alot. So quit busting on Leon Hall because he had a bad preseason game agaist Calvin Johnson. There is time to fix it, and he starts out slow every year.

[cincy9275]

On Thursday night, head coach Marvin Lewis challenged his offensive line to step up against a line that generated 39 sacks last season, and it didn't happen.

that's because the guy coaching them is a complete f**king joke! dam it it pisses me off that paul is still on this staff WTF? marvin fire this guy, he is going to get your qb f**king killed!

We know your opinion. Your monotonous, one-note rant is quite boring.

The reason this team won't for to the SuperBowl has nothing to do with a talent deficiency. It's Paul Alexander's fault. We get it. Thanks.

if you don't like my opinion you don't have to reply to it. it's also funny your trying to single out me. i am not the only one who feels that way about paul. go thru this thread and tell me how many different people call for paul to be fired or call him the worst o-line coach in the league. or just state how much the o-line just sucks.

i know i am beating a dead horse i will stop. just it drives me crazy that that this level of incompetence is accepted on this staff by the owner and head coach. you do know i hate paul right derek

[derekshank]

could really carless of what you think about me. if you don't like my opinion you don't have to reply to it.

Right back at you buddy. Clearly you do care... by the own standard you have defined.

it's also funny your trying to single out me but i am not the only one who feels that way about paul.

I know you're not the only one. Shula has had the same one-note rant for over 6 years. It was boring then. And adding you hasn't made it more interesting... because you haven't brought a single piece of new or relevant information to the table.

In fact, your only argument is "I'm not the only one who thinks this." Nice. No actual reason for your opinion... just sheep mentality. That's a damn strong argument.

if the o-line can't play then who's fault is it?

Oh, I don't know. The players?

Whitworth - solid (but probably a better LG than LT)

Livings - Undrafted FA

Cook - Undrafted FA

Williams - 35 years old

Smith - essentially his rookie year.

Yep. That's an elite group there. All the coach's fault.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

I get it. He didn't complete any bombs... but that's not really why he was drafted, is it? We were told this would be a run-first team, and the passing game would be more quick than explosive. I'm pretty happy with that performance from a rookie QB in his first game. And that offensive philosophy is the best you can hope for with this O-Line.

Don't mistake me, I'm not criticizing Dalton. He's a rookie QB who's had no OTAs, been in camp about 10 minutes, and playing in a completely putrid offense, particularly the line. But this is like teaching a 16 year old kid to drive on the 405 freeway in LA with no lessons. Maybe ease him in with some experience on side streets first?

Also, while this is a run-first team and the passing game is WCO style, it's still critical to stretch the field. 6 yards a completion will not get it done, you know that. Get them safeties back. And Dalton's clearly not ready for that right now. Worse, he has so little time that I question the ability to learn how to play QB in that environment. Honestly, I would question the ability of an NFL veteran to play behind this line, how can we expect a rookie to learn like that?

We saw the O-Line at it's worst against one of the best D-Lines in the NFL... and Dalton still managed to build some confidence. I'm pretty impressed, even if others aren't.

Let's see if his confidence lasts for 20 weeks of ass-kickings. Again, I agree with you - good on the kid for hanging in there. But he deserves better than this. I doubt this is the fastest way to build an all-Pro QB. I think you have an ownership and coaching staff that's looking out for their own interests, which doesn't necessarily have the long term success of this kid as their foremost consideration.

I've said it before, I'd wait until the bye, when the line will at least be able to presumably keep him upright for a few seconds. At this point, I'm not worried about his mental health, I'm worried about him getting through the preseason without getting carted off.

[cincy9275]

could really carless of what you think about me. if you don't like my opinion you don't have to reply to it.

Right back at you buddy. Clearly you do care... by the own standard you have defined.

it's also funny your trying to single out me but i am not the only one who feels that way about paul.

I know you're not the only one. Shula has had the same one-note rant for over 6 years. It was boring then. And adding you hasn't made it more interesting... because you haven't brought a single piece of new or relevant information to the table.

In fact, your only argument is "I'm not the only one who thinks this." Nice. No actual reason for your opinion... just sheep mentality. That's a damn strong argument.

if the o-line can't play then who's fault is it?

Oh, I don't know. The players?

Whitworth - solid (but probably a better LG than LT)

Livings - Undrafted FA

Cook - Undrafted FA

Williams - 35 years old

Smith - essentially his rookie year.

Yep. That's an elite group there. All the coach's fault.

yep pretty much when that's the group the coach thinks is good enough to play.

hey i am not your buddy pal! lol. dude no hard feelings i was editing my post when you replied.

[derekshank]

Also, while this is a run-first team and the passing game is WCO style, it's still critical to stretch the field. 6 yards a completion will not get it done, you know that.

Mark Sanchez plays behind one of the best O-Lines in the NFL. But they have still built an offense predicated on safe short throws. Sanchez only averaged 6.5 yards/pass last year... and they nearly went to the Superbowl.

Andy Dalton will throw 90% of his passes as nice safe short throws. He will move the ball 4-5 yards at a time... but the other 10% of the time will be enough to keep defenses honest. This team does have weapons.

Last night was probably the most talented D-Line the Bengals will face all season, so it's not fair to judge how the whole season will go based on two quarters of play, only two weeks removed from a lockout.

[derekshank]

if the o-line can't play then who's fault is it?

Oh, I don't know. The players?

Whitworth - solid (but probably a better LG than LT)

Livings - Undrafted FA

Cook - Undrafted FA

Williams - 35 years old

Smith - essentially his rookie year.

Yep. That's an elite group there. All the coach's fault.

yep pretty much when that's the group the coach thinks is good enough to play.

It's not as if Anthony Munoz and Max Montoya are riding the bench, so it's not fair to blame the coaching for the lack of talent made available to them.

It's not Paul Alexander's responsibility to acquire talent. If it was, I'd be right with you. But there is only one 1st round draft pick on the roster, and he's been an injury prone tub of goo. I'd say Alexander has done relatively well considering the talent level of his roster.

This is not primarily a coaching problem. It's a personnel problem.

[redsbengalsbucks]

Some good signs:

Benson looked good running behind the right side. Smith and Bobbie opened up some good holes.

Finley looked good, he may take Leonard's spot

Dalton is a good WCO QB, he needs to work on the deeper routes.

Simpson and Green are going to be good.

Standeford looks much better than the previous #85.

Nate Clements can still play CB.

Bad signs:

Hall still looks like a warm turd. Maybe a healthy Pacman can push Hall to the third CB spot, he might be able to cover in the slot.

No pressure on the QB, still.

no depth in the LB's after another injury

Palmer sucks, at least it is a third string Palmer this time.

Safety play in the middle is still very bad.

[volcom69]

I was happy with Andre Smith, and Whitworth, other then that i think some things need to change on the o-line. Im hoping this week they at least bring in a couple guards to look at. Guard is the worst postion on this team and needs an upgrade.

If they want Dalton to play well then im hoping Marvin looks at the tape and sees this o-line at work. When Dalton had time he looked good, nice 3 step drops and the ball came out fast. Im not going to give up on Dalton i like this kid and really think he can play, lets make the line around him better. They have the recievers and the running backs, now its time for an o-line.

[cHaD711Johnson]

Injuries = annual excuse (Bengals have no depth and I mentioned that here in another thread)

The Bengals think they can win games or be "competitive" with backups from other teams being starters here (Howard, Lawson, Livings, Cook, Crocker, Nelson in particular)

Jay Gruden reminds me of Dave Shula - lost, deer-eyed, a joke, no place in the NFL as an o-coordinator without being a position coach first, a total joke, and I laughed at that hire on here when it was announced.

Leon Hall is the most overrated CB in the NFL by far.

JJ and Carson had no interest in coming back here because they were SMART.

Paul Alexander is the worst o-line coach in the NFL and that is not an over-statement, he is absolutely horrible, can't judge talent and most of all, can't coach guys up.

Did I mention Jay Gruden is worse than Bratkowski?

Pac Man, Caldwell, Sims and Dunlap wouldn't have made much of a difference on defense, the LB's here suck, the did last year, they do this year.

This team will be the worst in the NFL, they are an absolute train wreck, remember this, and I'm posting as a life long fan, not a hater, just don't bulls**t me, but lets all not pretend this was some sort of 1st preseason game anamoly, this is what you will see most of the season, they will be lucky to win a single game.

But cmon and give me those Mike Brown lovin' excuses....

Same old s**t we've been seeing for 20+ years, it doesn't change folks, wake up.

You're saying Gruden sucks after seeing him with a rookie QB and having 2 weeks to install an offense with not OTAs. That my friend, is a joke.

[volcom69]

Injuries = annual excuse (Bengals have no depth and I mentioned that here in another thread)

The Bengals think they can win games or be "competitive" with backups from other teams being starters here (Howard, Lawson, Livings, Cook, Crocker, Nelson in particular)

Jay Gruden reminds me of Dave Shula - lost, deer-eyed, a joke, no place in the NFL as an o-coordinator without being a position coach first, a total joke, and I laughed at that hire on here when it was announced.

Leon Hall is the most overrated CB in the NFL by far.

JJ and Carson had no interest in coming back here because they were SMART.

Paul Alexander is the worst o-line coach in the NFL and that is not an over-statement, he is absolutely horrible, can't judge talent and most of all, can't coach guys up.

Did I mention Jay Gruden is worse than Bratkowski?

Pac Man, Caldwell, Sims and Dunlap wouldn't have made much of a difference on defense, the LB's here suck, the did last year, they do this year.

This team will be the worst in the NFL, they are an absolute train wreck, remember this, and I'm posting as a life long fan, not a hater, just don't bulls**t me, but lets all not pretend this was some sort of 1st preseason game anamoly, this is what you will see most of the season, they will be lucky to win a single game.

But cmon and give me those Mike Brown lovin' excuses....

Same old s**t we've been seeing for 20+ years, it doesn't change folks, wake up.

You're saying Gruden sucks after seeing him with a rookie QB and having 2 weeks to install an offense with not OTAs. That my friend, is a joke.

Yea really, how after 2 weeks can you say Gruden is worse then Brat, i didnt see any indication of that at all. I think Gruden called a game where he could see what he has in his QBs, and what his running backs have. Hell he is still getting used to the guys that are here. Stop trying to find things to bi*ch about.

[Horsemen]

It's not as if Anthony Munoz and Max Montoya are riding the bench, so it's not fair to blame the coaching for the lack of talent made available to them.

Alexander is Mikeys golden boy and gets what he wants. He wanted Tubs O'Fun and got him, he wanted Stacey Andrews and not only did he get him we bounced Willie Anderson so he little pet project could start.

It's not Paul Alexander's responsibility to acquire talent.

No it is his responsibility to COACH. Yet he runs his mouth on "give me an Andre Smith, gimme this project, gimme that project, I like Livings he needs to start." On the coaching side? The fact remains the only time he has EVER had a good offensive line was when he had two first round book ends, a 2nd round RG, a 3rd round center and an already proven and coached up Bobbie Williams. If you need 2nd and 3rd round interior linemen in every spot and first/2nd round right tackles to be good? You suck at your job.

But there is only one 1st round draft pick on the roster, and he's been an injury prone tub of goo. I'd say Alexander has done relatively well considering the talent level of his roster.

Talent he handpicked on the O.L. I wouldn't say he has done well at all. It is amazing to me offensive line coaches across the NFL can pick up 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th and UDFA linemen year in, year out and develop them yet Alexander has yet to develop ONE linemen in twenty f**king years. No dice, and our best linemen such as Willie, Braham and Munoz agree, Alexander is a joke.

[derekshank]

Alexander is Mikeys golden boy and gets what he wants... he wanted Stacey Andrews and not only did he get him we bounced Willie Anderson so he little pet project could start.

Yeah, Willie had a lot left in the tank, didn't he? How long did he play in Baltimore again? 11 games?

If you need 2nd and 3rd round interior linemen in every spot and first/2nd round right tackles to be good? You suck at your job.

In '09 the O-Line had almost no experience. Whitworth hadn't started at LT since college, and with the exception of an aging Bobby Williams, the rest of the group were undrafted free agents. That group was in the top 10 in sacks allowed and top 10 in rushing yards. So... I guess he doesn't "need" 2nd and 3rd round interior linemen in every spot, does he?

Talent he handpicked on the O.L. I wouldn't say he has done well at all. It is amazing to me offensive line coaches across the NFL can pick up 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th and UDFA linemen year in, year out and develop them yet Alexander has yet to develop ONE linemen in twenty f**king years. No dice, and our best linemen such as Willie, Braham and Munoz agree, Alexander is a joke.

Care to back any of this up? Seriously... Any of it. I'll get you started:

1) Where is your evidence that Alexander "hand-picks" these players? Because, other than A.Smith, the O-Line has been ignored in the draft for years.

2) Who are the O-Line coaches across the NFL that do these miracles? Give me just 2 examples of any O-Line coach, getting multiple late draft picks to perform at a high level. It should be easy to come up with 2 names... since it's so widespread. (Hint: cite articles like this to illustrate how good a coach is at getting former practice squad guys ready for starting a job)

3) Can you provide quotes from Willie, Braham, and Munoz? I want to hear them call Alexander is a joke.

This should be easy for you, since it is all indisputable fact... or, maybe you're full of s**t.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

Mark Sanchez plays behind one of the best O-Lines in the NFL. But they have still built an offense predicated on safe short throws. Sanchez only averaged 6.5 yards/pass last year... and they nearly went to the Superbowl.

That's 6.5 yards an attempt, not completion, for Sanchez (and even that ain't great, Dirty was the weak link of that team). Dalton had like 4.5 yards an attempt, 6 per completion. That would be epic bad over a full season. The high completion % with the low YPC shows that he's only ready to hit the dump off and little else. And it's not his fault - he's just not ready.

Anyway, I'm not trying to get into an "Andy Dalton sucks" debate because it's not my point, it's probably not true, and it would be absurd to assess at this point. My point is that playing behind a line this bad takes a QB who is experienced, can make reads quickly, and is disposable. Grunk is that guy. Start him week 1.

Look, I just don't want Dalton to die. The reason the QB has to make quick reads is not just for the good of the team, but to save his ass. That extra second holding the ball will get Dalton sent to the IR, if not the ER, this year.

Andy Dalton will throw 90% of his passes as nice safe short throws. He will move the ball 4-5 yards at a time... but the other 10% of the time will be enough to keep defenses honest. This team does have weapons.

I'm waiting for the line to hold long enough for those routes to develop, let alone for Dalton to read them in time to make them. It wouldn't matter if this team had Randy Moss and Jerry Rice, Dalton can't hit them.

Last night was probably the most talented D-Line the Bengals will face all season, so it's not fair to judge how the whole season will go based on two quarters of play, only two weeks removed from a lockout.

Quite true. However, while the Lions have possibly the best pass-rushing DT in football, that's only one player. I'm not crowning their asses just yet; it's not like playing the 86 Giants. Despite all mitigating circumstances, looking that bad is bad. Moreso, the way in which it was bad pretty much reflected the exact problems we expected - green QB and a pathetic line. This doesn't look to be a problem that gets solved this year, particularly since the players performing the worst (the O-line) are the same ones that sucked last year.

I think Bengals fans are too close to this situation to see it straight. If a friend told you their team was planning to start a small-conference rookie QB week 1 for a team with no O-line and no hope for 2011, during a lockout year with no time to prepare, you'd tell the guy his team was nuts. But when it's your guy, you want to see what he can do. Look at the history of rookie QBs - the only ones who have success have good defenses, running games, and O-lines. Dalton will not buck that trend.

Tell me this - what is the benefit of starting him week 1 vs, say, after the bye?

[derekshank]

Tell me this - what is the benefit of starting him week 1 vs, say, after the bye?

Simple... the schedule. Having warmup games against the likes of Cleveland, Buffalo, SF, and Denver is nicer than having your 3rd game be against Pittsburgh.