Carson Palmer Thread

[cincyhokie]

A case could be made that Carson is a passive/aggressive, ungrateful, mopey little quitter. But in spite of that, Mike should do what's best for the Bengals, even if it means not wreaking Brown Family vengeance on Palmer.

This is the matter at hand. We can argue back and forth about Carson's obligations and intentions all day. What is best for the team?

[jjakq27]

That's not all Mike's done for Palmer. He also hired his little brother as a backup when no one else wanted him. He consistently spent big money and draft picks on weapons to make sure Palmer had good players to throw to. He honored Palmer's request to bring TO in after the two played catch out in SoCal. He never complained when Palmer refused to stick around and work in the offseason, instead flying back to SoCal as soon as the season was over and working out there. He frontloaded the bonus money I'm sure at Palmer's request. He kept his mouth shut when Palmer's performance deteriorated even as Mike kept paying him like one of the 10 best players in the league.

A case could be made that Carson is a passive/aggressive, ungrateful, mopey little quitter. But in spite of that, Mike should do what's best for the Bengals, even if it means not wreaking Brown Family vengeance on Palmer.

The little matter of his contractual obligation always seems to get in the way, doesn't it?

I am not sure who had the final say on his elbow in 2008. Was it the recently departed team physician or was it someone that the Palmer camp wanted? I will defend Carson for his performance in 2009 since it resulted in a division championship but something was/is obviously wrong. And I'm not talking about the slightly overthrown or thrown-behind passes. I mean the ones that are thrown out of bounds or so horribly errant that they defy explanation. As you said the team stood by him throughout.

I'm sure there's more to it but my gut feel (again) is that his wife didn't like the way he got booed after surpassing the 20,000 yd mark and all of the criticism that has grown over the last couple of years. I was there when he got booed and wasn't to happy about it either but this city has booed Bomer Esiason and Ken Anderson so I say deal with it. All of that comes with that big signing bonus he going to retire on.

[BengalszoneBilly]

What is best for the team?

At this point for Cincinnati to trade him for all we can get.

Please.

[jjakq27]

I gotta ask....is it really that fkn bad?

/>http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/14784430/palmers-not-playing-hes-done-if-hes-not-traded/rss

According to a source close to Palmer, members of the team's coaching staff, including head coach Marvin Lewis, visited with Palmer, and all were told the same thing -- namely, that he is resigned to retiring if the Bengals don't accommodate him, which he doesn't expect they will.

[Scottishbengal]

What is best for the team?

At this point for Cincinnati to trade him for all we can get.

Please.

The team will survive, to whatever degree, either with or without Palmer. My view is any player that doesn't want to play for the team should go, whether as a trade or retirement I don't really care, I just want to cheer on whoever is under that stripey helmet.

We survived the departures of QB's both good and not so good - Boomer, Klinger, Smith, Mitchell, Frerotte, O'Donnell, Kitna ...... there's life after Palmer

[cincyhokie]

That's not all Mike's done for Palmer. He also hired his little brother as a backup when no one else wanted him. He consistently spent big money and draft picks on weapons to make sure Palmer had good players to throw to. He honored Palmer's request to bring TO in after the two played catch out in SoCal. He never complained when Palmer refused to stick around and work in the offseason, instead flying back to SoCal as soon as the season was over and working out there. He frontloaded the bonus money I'm sure at Palmer's request. He kept his mouth shut when Palmer's performance deteriorated even as Mike kept paying him like one of the 10 best players in the league.

A case could be made that Carson is a passive/aggressive, ungrateful, mopey little quitter. But in spite of that, Mike should do what's best for the Bengals, even if it means not wreaking Brown Family vengeance on Palmer.

The little matter of his contractual obligation always seems to get in the way, doesn't it?

I am not sure who had the final say on his elbow in 2008. Was it the recently departed team physician or was it someone that the Palmer camp wanted? I will defend Carson for his performance in 2009 since it resulted in a division championship but something was/is obviously wrong. And I'm not talking about the slightly overthrown or thrown-behind passes. I mean the ones that are thrown out of bounds or so horribly errant that they defy explanation. As you said the team stood by him throughout.

I'm sure there's more to it but my gut feel (again) is that his wife didn't like the way he got booed after surpassing the 20,000 yd mark and all of the criticism that has grown over the last couple of years. I was there when he got booed and wasn't to happy about it either but this city has booed Bomer Esiason and Ken Anderson so I say deal with it. All of that comes with that big signing bonus he going to retire on.

He's fufilled his contractual obligation. He won't get paid the remaining money for the years he hasn't played. Am I missing something?

Don't confuse him finishing his contract with contractual obligation. The teams cut plays all the time and don't hold up to their end of the contractural obligation.

[HairOnFire]

A case could be made that Carson is a passive/aggressive, ungrateful, mopey little quitter.

Oddly enough I'd say a strong case for the above is now being made by both Palmer's detractors and supporters. For example, I'd say the article that Hoosier linked was heavily slanted in Palmer's favor, even going so far as to imply Mike Brown was foolish for paying Palmer so much money that any further financial considerations could simply be ignored by Palmer. Yet even that writer saw fit to question Palmer's desire and competitive fire, and mockingly wondered aloud if things were really bad enough to provoke this type of action from Palmer.

But in spite of that, Mike should do what's best for the Bengals, even if it means not wreaking Brown Family vengeance on Palmer.

But that isn't happening, is it? In fact, it's almost a certainty there are no acts of vengence currently being considered by the Brown family. Rather, it is Palmer himself who acts in a manner that would end his own career, and it is Palmer alone who acts in a manner that threatens 50 million dollars in future earnings. So at worst, the threat that Mike Brown represents to Palmer is that of someone who will hold him to his own words by allowing him to retire.

He's fufilled his contractual obligation. He won't get paid the remaining money for the years he hasn't played. Am I missing something?

Of course you are. You're missing the part about Palmer being central to all future long-term Bengal planning. So of course he can walk away from the Bengals and the NFL without paying back a single penny of bonus money if he so desires. That isn't the issue. But by the same token Palmer's money and willingness to off himself aren't enough to dictate the Bengals ignore all of their planning simply to accomodate his wishes. And that's especially true under any circumstance that would result in a player forcing a trade upon the Bengals that they didn't think was in their own self interests or bring significant return.

[COB]

So at worst, the threat that Mike Brown represents to Palmer is that of someone who will hold him to his own words by allowing him to retire.

I'm starting to wonder if Carson even sees that as a threat.

It might be more like a boxer who's had enough, and just starts to look for a soft spot on the canvas.j

Going out this way, Carson's getting the benefit of the doubt from everyone. I hear commentators repeatedly say, "Carson's just had all he can handle of the circus-like atmosphere, and some of the people he's been forced to deal with." Then they usually mention Chad and T.O., though they usually don't know that Carson has always been a big Chad supporter, and that he pretty much personally brought T.O. to the Bengals. Anyone remember Carson predicting Superbowl last summer while he was blabbing about all his toys?

This way it's all the Bengals' fault, they drove poor Carson crazy with their incompetence. It'll work as long as no one bothers to go back and look at how Carson has played for the last 3-4 years.

[HairOnFire]

So at worst, the threat that Mike Brown represents to Palmer is that of someone who will hold him to his own words by allowing him to retire.

I'm starting to wonder if Carson even sees that as a threat.

Well there's the rub because if Palmer really is at peace with his decision to retire rather than continue playing for the Bengals then you really do have to question why any team, including this one, would even want Palmer as a starting QB, nevermind the face of a franchise. But ignoring all of that for a moment, the fact remains that Mike Brown isn't threatening to do anything to Palmer. Rather, it's Palmer who threatens to end his own career if his own demands aren't met, and he further admits he doesn't expect them to be.

Going out this way, Carson's getting the benefit of the doubt from everyone.

I'd say the opposite is true. By threatening to retire Carson Palmer has invited everyone to judge his career as if it had ended, and the early reviews aren't pretty. Furthermore, I'd say the talk about Palmer's lack of competitive fire has only just begun, and will only increase the longer he voluntarily and willingly keeps himself on the shelf.

This way it's all the Bengals' fault, they drove poor Carson crazy with their incompetence. It'll work as long as no one bothers to go back and look at how Carson has played for the last 3-4 years.

To be fair, that tactic is likely to work within the borders of BengalNation no matter what the observers feelings for Palmer might be. Because in all matters relating to our beloved Bengals it's fair to say all shid rolls uphill, not down. That said, those outside of Bengala are likely to look closely at Palmer's recent play and wonder aloud what all of the fuss is about.

[TJJackson]

if Palmer really is at peace with his decision to retire rather than continue playing for the Bengals then you really do have to question why any team, including this one, would even want Palmer as a starting QB

Because players sometimes revitalize their careers (and their mindset and drive) with a change of scenery.

Although the circumstances of his departure from Chicago are not remotely like what is going on with Carson, your own beloved Ced Benson was disenchanted with Chicago, did (like Carson now) not want to return (and yes, I know he was not given a choice in that matter), and yet managed to nicely revitalize his career here, particularly in 2009.

I guess for me the key thing is: Carson's contract is an asset, and a competent business manager makes use of his assets. In this case, knowing he'll get no value from Caron on the field, Son-of-a-Genius should (but of course he wont, idiot that he is) act to get whatever value he can from it, even if it is only a midround draft pick in 2012. Better than squat.

My opening offer to any interested team were I the GM - give me a high 2 or a low 1 for Carson, and I'll throw in Ochodroppo for free.

[HairOnFire]

if Palmer really is at peace with his decision to retire rather than continue playing for the Bengals then you really do have to question why any team, including this one, would even want Palmer as a starting QB

Because players sometimes revitalize their careers (and their mindset and drive) with a change of scenery.

Fair enough. But the first thing anyone will ask when considering Palmer is why is he suddenly demanding a trade? And they'll demand an answer simply because you can't reasonably expect to fix something if you don't know what's broken. Whatever answer they might recieve from Palmer will then have to be weighed against the not so favorable impressions left by his recent inconsistent play, the questions surrounding his leadership...both new and old, and his willingness to step away from a game he can still play.

As for the idea of a player being revitalized by a change of scenery, it seems more likely that Palmer will get his much desired change of scenery in retirement, and if he's truly comfortable with his new surroundings and the choice to walk away from his career at age 31 you simply have to question how much desire he has left.

Although the circumstances of his departure from Chicago are not remotely like what is going on with Carson, your own beloved Ced Benson was disenchanted with Chicago, did (like Carson now) not want to return (and yes, I know he was not given a choice in that matter), and yet managed to nicely revitalize his career here, particularly in 2009.

Do I need to respond to the above when you freely admit the example offered isn't even remotely close to Palmer's?

[HairOnFire]

The slightly crazy sounding rant about Palmer being puzzy whipped gathers momentum...

Posted Today, 05:13 PM

Dave Lapham - 03-09-2011 02:45 PM

Carson's wife is a big factor in this. She definitely wants out of Cincinnati. Unhappy wife=unhappy life. In the meeting Carson had with Mike Brown face to face all he said was he was unhappy. He would not divulge the specifics of his unhappiness. If you are trying to move on to another franchise, I guess it makes sense to not rip the organization of the guy you are trying to get to move you. My understanding is Marvin Lewis went to California later to see Carson face to face and came out of that session feeling Carson was determined in his resolve to move on. I saw Carson leave the locker room the day after the season ended and he had packed up his entire locker. Nothing left behind. His mind was made up then. It will be interesting to see if Marvin can get Mike to soften his position about trading disgruntled players under contract. Particularly the player Mike looks at as the face of his franchise. If the market will bear a 2nd rounder you have to pull the trigger on that don't you? I believe he has 3-5 years left if he avoids any more injury. Knee reconstruction, ligament damage to the throwing elbow.....that's plenty to deal with for any career.

/>http://footballpros....n-Palmer-Enigma

[derekshank]

Posted Today, 05:13 PM

Dave Lapham - 03-09-2011 02:45 PM

If the market will bear a 2nd rounder you have to pull the trigger on that don't you?

I'm so sick of this mindset that says "Sh*tty compensation is better than no compensation." No, it isn't.

When you do the math, the Bengals can't be placed in a vacuum. You can't simply say "Any draft pick is better than no draft pick." Because whatever team you trade with is getting a hell of a bargain. And whatever team that is... the Bengals are in direct competition with.

Just because a team is in a different conference doesn't change the fact... you are directly benefiting a team you are directly competing against in the NFL.

I've said it before... the only way a trade makes sense is if you would make the trade even without the demand. Otherwise, let him retire.

[TJJackson]

the first thing anyone will ask when considering Palmer is why is he suddenly demanding a trade? And they'll demand an answer simply because you can't reasonably expect to fix something if you don't know what's broken.

I think most clubs, players, and agents are well aware of why Cincinnati is often referred to as the Siberia of the NFL. No one dreams of coming here, but many demand out. That said - sure, they'll ask before they make the trade. Thats to be expected with such a large investment.

Whatever answer they might recieve from Palmer will then have to be weighed against the not so favorable impressions left by his recent inconsistent play, the questions surrounding his leadership...both new and old, and his willingness to step away from a game he can still play.

All true

Also in said weighing - how he did when he was finally relieved of having to force the ball to the Two Loon Platoon

And his successes -- though the older they are, the less they figure into the weighing

Said another way, with an investment this large, I'd expect a prospective buyer for this contract to go over Palmer with a microscope, certainly in a figurative sense and perhaps literally as well. They will weigh *everything*, all the good and all the bad.

As for the idea of a player being revitalized by a change of scenery, it seems more likely that Palmer will get his much desired change of scenery in retirement

More likely? Yes, but only because of SoaG being SoaG - in other words, an absolute moron when it comes to football-related matters

Do I need to respond to the above when you freely admit the example offered isn't even remotely close to Palmer's?

I'd say yes, tho you are as always free to ignore or denigrate me as well :-)

The reason I'll go with yes is because tho the reasons for the departures are far different, the desire (or lack thereof) to remain with the original club is similar.

[TJJackson]

I've said it before... the only way a trade makes sense is if you would make the trade even without the demand. Otherwise, let him retire.

I dont agree with this logic.

To wit

1) If he had not made the demand, we take it as assumed his value is that of a starting NFL QB, a player not easily replaced. This has a high value

but

2) He did make the demand, and one cannot simply ignore it and say his value to the team is still as a starting NFL quarterback when there is a chance (I'd say nigh 100%, others might chose some lower number, but few if any would probably chose 0) you will not get that value.

and

3) if you assume (as I do) that you are going to get zero value out of Carson as a starting NFL quarterback ongoing, I think you have to look at what your options are and consider the value of each. The only value I see in not dealing Carson is long term - sending a message to all players that management directs the players, and not vice versa. But I think that point has already long been made, so I see little value in reinforcing it yet again. On the other hand, a 7th round draft pick has actual value. Not a lot, admittedly, but more than zero.

to the argument that you have to face Palmer eventually no matter who you trade him to? 1 time in 4 years does not amount to much, and with the draft pick(s) and salary reduction you reap in return, you can even the score with other players you can add (or retain when otherwise you might not be able to) to your own team.

[HairOnFire]

I think most clubs, players, and agents are well aware of why Cincinnati is often referred to as the Siberia of the NFL.

And what becomes of your Siberia rant if it's confirmed that the primary reason for Palmer wanting out is related to his wife hating the area and the people who call it home? In fact, what if we learn that Team Palmer wanted out of the river city from the moment the first boos were heard during the 2009 playoff game? Or even earlier, when Bengal fans loudly complained about the style of play that resulted in a rare playoff berth. And what if we learn how the breaking point for Palmer happened during this seasons Tampa Bay game, when articles mentioned how outraged his family was said to be upon hearing him heavily booed during a home game? And what if the final straw came in the form of a repeatedly vandalized yard and increasing amounts of criticism falling upon Plamer from seemingly everywhere? What if Palmer's claim that he'll never set foot in PBS again is based upon a deep desire to never play another down for Bengal fans? What if we learn that he's just not that into you?

Said another way, with an investment this large, I'd expect a prospective buyer for this contract to go over Palmer with a microscope, certainly in a figurative sense and perhaps literally as well. They will weigh *everything*, all the good and all the bad.

And what will they offer if they conclude Palmer is threatening to retire specifically because his wife no longer wants to live in a city where fans burn her husbands jersey on her front lawn? Will they conclude his request is reasonable? Or will they laugh under their breath a little before moving on to the next unmarried QB?

The reason I'll go with yes [RE:Benson]is because tho the reasons for the departures are far different, the desire (or lack thereof) to remain with the original club is similar.

But doesn't Benson make a mockery of your Siberia rant? As an unrestricted FA he willingly signed with the Bengals, and later signed with them again despite being totally unrestricted. Furthermore, he says he wants to stay and has openly embraced the new offensive coaches. Finally, by being willing to openly criticize his coaches and the work ethic and dedictation of fellow players Cedric Benson showed more leadership than Carson Palmer has ever done. Benson is willing to say what he thinks is wrong and do whatever he thinks will correct the problem. By comparison, Palmer said almost nothing before delivering an ultimatum he doesn't expect to be acted upon.

[HairOnFire]

I'm so sick of this mindset that says "Sh*tty compensation is better than no compensation." No, it isn't.

Not only do I agree, but I increasingly find myself moving away from the idea that Palmer should be traded even if the compensation offered is adequate.

Let him retire if his flame has faded.

[TJJackson]

And what becomes of your Siberia rant

I'm hurt, Hair - I don't think what I wrote qualified as a rant. :-)

if it's confirmed that the primary reason for Palmer wanting out is related to his wife hating the area and the people who call it home?

I'd say that makes it all the more likely that the entire Palmer family will benefit from a relocation

In fact, what if we learn that Team Palmer wanted out of the river city from the moment the first boos were heard during the 2009 playoff game?

Same response

Or even earlier, when Bengal fans loudly complained about the style of play that resulted in a rare playoff berth.

Same response

And what if we learn how the breaking point for Palmer happened during this seasons Tampa Bay game, when articles mentioned how outraged his family was said to be upon hearing him heavily booed during a home game? And what if the final straw came in the form of a repeatedly vandalized yard and increasing amounts of criticism falling upon Plamer from seemingly everywhere? What if Palmer's claim that he'll never set foot in PBS again is based upon a deep desire to never play another down for Bengal fans?

Same

Same

Same

Same

(is that enough sames? or did leave one out? sorry)

What if we learn that he's just not that into you?

I can live with that. Poor ole Agreen/Gizzle will probably cry himself to sleep over it, tho

But doesn't Benson make a mockery of your Siberia rant?

Nah.

No one else wanted him at the time he first signed here. He had no other real suitors.

Min vet contract in Siberia > no contract anywhere

I think this act of redemption earned the Bengals a higher measure of his loyalty than what they'd get from a typical signing.

That said, tho he continues to say "the right things" he remains unsigned. It's possible that Siberia has claimed another victim, and we'll have a clearer picture of this when free agency (eventually) resumes

[TJJackson]

Let him retire if his flame has faded.

I agree with the logic, but I disagree with the premise, based on Carson's loon-less performances at season's end with mostly inexperienced receivers

[HoosierCat]

And the fact that MB gets a hard on for bargains like Benson and Pacman is a completely separate issue. The reason players like that wouldn't sign here under normal circumstances is because big-name FAs require big bucks. He'd prefer to get guys on the cheap. Certainly something worth criticism... but not in this discussion.

Ah, delays, delays...anyhow, yes it is key to this discussion. The reason guys like Benson and Pacman are here has nothing to do with bucks. It has to do that no other team wanted them because of their well-documented off-field issues. They. Had. No. Choice. If they wanted to continue their careers, Cincy was pretty much it. Hell, first chance he got, Benson tried to get out but Houston wouldn't give him the starting job.

F**k this. Trade Palmer. They'll get a first rounder offered (at least), though probably not this year. Take it, move on, and make the first order of businesses when there's a camp to open the locker room door and invite anyone else who doesn't want to be here to take a hike as well.

[jjakq27]

I'm so sick of this mindset that says "Sh*tty compensation is better than no compensation." No, it isn't.

Not only do I agree, but I increasingly find myself moving away from the idea that Palmer should be traded even if the compensation offered is adequate.

Let him retire if his flame has faded.

Sadly I have come to that conclusion also. While I would like to see the team parlay this situation into a couple of draft picks there's a part of me that wants MB to call his (or his wife's) bluff.

Keep in mind that the Bengals will retain his rights whether he retires, quits or whatever. At some point down the road the team could still get something in return for him if he decides to un-retire a year or two from now.

[COB]

...but I increasingly find myself moving away from the idea that Palmer should be traded even if the compensation offered is adequate.

There's the Brown Family Vengeance!

Carson Palmer's career sleeps with the fishes.

[BengalszoneBilly]

Let him retire if his flame has faded.

Oh it's faded. The fading started after the knee injury and it never diminished after that.

[TJJackson]

Let him retire if his flame has faded.

Oh it's faded. The fading started after the knee injury and it never diminished after that.

He just hit a lucky streak when the 2 Loon Platoon were finally absent the field?

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

I'm so sick of this mindset that says "Sh*tty compensation is better than no compensation." No, it isn't.

Not only do I agree, but I increasingly find myself moving away from the idea that Palmer should be traded even if the compensation offered is adequate.

Let him retire if his flame has faded.

I was starting to wonder where Mike Brown's sock puppet went.