CONFIRMED: Brat Fired

[HoosierCat]

Is anyone else having a hard time generating enthusiasm for the 2011 season?

Yeah, but for me it's less about the lack of changes in Cincy -- though that's certainly aggravating -- and more about all the uncertainty surrounding the CBA. Until that gets resolved, there isn't much worth getting excited about. Free agency? Won't be any. Trades? Won't be any. There will be a draft but I'm not sure it will matter if teams can't sign picks without a new CBA, and I haven't seen it categorically stated that they can.

[COB]

From Lance's blog

Where Marvin failed this year

I was listening to ESPN 1530 this morning. Trey Wingo said, "Bears coach Lovie Smith doesn't get enough credit for how he managed his offensive coordinator this year. That offense was a train wreck early in the year. He went to Mike Martz and said, 'we need to feature Matt Forte'.

Boy, that gets to the heart of the matter. Our oc, Bob Martzkowski, was just left to go on his merry, dysfunctional, way: forcing pass after pass at the loon platoon until the season was shot, Ced was planning his escape from Cinci, and we had forfeited any toughness we'd developed in the '09 season.

So why didn't Marvin do what Lovie did, have a sit down with the OC and set his ass straight?

PS - The Saints win the '09 Super Bowl, and that's all Bob needed to abandon the power game and go to clockwork orange. Meanwhile this year, look who's in the AFC championship game, the Steelers and the Jets! But a punishing running game wasn't good enough for us. Bratksowski, your name is truly suck.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

The only thing I can think of is that Mike Brown is preparing for a lockout, and is banking on the continuity of his horrible staff

In fairness - to the extent any is deserved - Mike Brown isn't the only one doing that.

There were an insane number hot-seat coaches given tepid endorsements from management, or internal candidates selected to replace fired coaches. Do Jeff Fisher, Gary Kubiak, Tony Sparano, or Marvin Lewis survive in a normal year? Doubtful. Do Jason Garrett, Leslie Frazier, and Hue Jackson get snapped up immediately by their current team without flirting with big names that are still on the sidelines? Not likely.

[ben]

I realize i will take some heat for this but how about Brian Daboll for OC? I thought he did a good job with what he had and is at least creative. Another thing about katie's response where she took a shot at anybody that listens to sports talk , i can guaretee you that 90 percent that listen know a lot of football and could help the bengals. They have a major case of denial.

[HairOnFire]

From Lance's blog

Where Marvin failed this year

I was listening to ESPN 1530 this morning. Trey Wingo said, "Bears coach Lovie Smith doesn't get enough credit for how he managed his offensive coordinator this year. That offense was a train wreck early in the year. He went to Mike Martz and said, 'we need to feature Matt Forte'.

Boy, that gets to the heart of the matter. Our oc, Bob Martzkowski, was just left to go on his merry, dysfunctional, way: forcing pass after pass at the loon platoon until the season was shot, Ced was planning his escape from Cinci, and we had forfeited any toughness we'd developed in the '09 season.

Agreed, but the changes made in Chicago went far beyond featuring Matt Forte. That team made the traditionally unthinkable choice of embracing numerous changes in their offensive line during the season. Then, and even more importantly, Lovie told Martz to drop the deep passing game in favor of shorter drops. That not only helped the offensive line, but resulted in far fewer mistakes made by Cutler. In short, more running and a shift to a checkdown passing game resulted in less pressure on everyone, from an O-line that lacks experience and talent, to a mistake prone big-armed QB, to a WR corp that might be one of the worst in the NFL.

So why didn't Marvin do what Lovie did, have a sit down with the OC and set his ass straight?

The obvious answer is Marvin fully embraced the shift from a running attack to one built around the talents of the Two-Loon Platoon. Which explains why I wanted him fired. But with him returning, and presumably Brat as well, our best hope rests with a shift towards a New England style small ball attack featuring Gresham and Shipley or more of the same familiar Clockwork Orange scheme, but built around better play from the WR position. Or more likely a combination of the two. But regardless, Smashball seems dead and buried due to the changes already made at the TE position and the increasingly likely departure of Benson.

PS - The Saints win the '09 Super Bowl, and that's all Bob needed to abandon the power game and go to clockwork orange. Meanwhile this year, look who's in the AFC championship game, the Steelers and the Jets! But a punishing running game wasn't good enough for us.

Run the ball, play great defense, print playoff tickets.

[HairOnFire]

Is anyone else having a hard time generating enthusiasm for the 2011 season?

Yeah, but for me it's less about the lack of changes in Cincy -- though that's certainly aggravating -- and more about all the uncertainty surrounding the CBA. Until that gets resolved, there isn't much worth getting excited about.

We all agree our pig is in desperate need of lipstick.

Free agency? Won't be any. Trades? Won't be any.

True enough, but the lack of player movement between teams probably impacts the Bengals less than any team in the NFL.

There will be a draft but I'm not sure it will matter if teams can't sign picks without a new CBA, and I haven't seen it categorically stated that they can.

Again, the inability to infuse the roster with new talent probably impacts the Bengals less than any other team in the NFL due to the Bengals longstanding reluctance to use that talent immediately. At best we sometimes see a 1st or 2nd round pick get significant early playing time, and even that isn't a given. In fact, it seems unlikely that anyone now being considered for the 4th overall slot would play early regardless of position played.

Optimism? If there's any of that sweet stuff remaining it's probably limited to the weak schedule the Bengals will play this season, the renewed hope that they'll stop wasting the talent they already have on their roster, and the fact that by the time the Bengals begin playing games that count their preseason schedule will have reached a staggering 25 games. (2010 regular season included)

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

The obvious answer is Marvin fully embraced the shift from a running attack to one built around the talents of the Two-Loon Platoon.

We've been over this one. That's *an* answer. Or it could be, as we've discussed, that Mikey overruled Marvin if he did try to make changes and backed Bratkowski.

I still think that in our little game of Clue here, Mikey makes the more compelling suspect given his love of the passing game. Also consider how much money he spent on the passing game (especially counting Antonio Bryant, aka 'dumbest free agent signing of all time').

On the other hand, I've never known a defensive coach who in his bones prefers the deep ball to smash-mouth running. Let alone a defense guy who grew up in Pittsburgh.

At this point, I'm not in love with Marvin. But this decision has the stink of Mike Brown all over it. I think you discount it because you couldn't imagine a middle manager having his knees cut out by his boss like that and taking it. But in light of recent events - namely, Marvin returning with no noticeable concessions - we know that's exactly what he's doing. Taking it.

So tell me what happens if Marvin tells Brat to stop throwing the damn ball, Brat runs upstairs to Mikey, and Mikey calls Marvin in to tell him it ain't happening. Does Marvin quit? Not likely. Hell, he came back after this year didn't he?

[HairOnFire]

The obvious answer is Marvin fully embraced the shift from a running attack to one built around the talents of the Two-Loon Platoon.

We've been over this one. That's *an* answer. Or it could be, as we've discussed, that Mikey overruled Marvin if he did try to make changes and backed Bratkowski.

Sorry, but I've heard a mic'd up Marvin Lewis too many times to belive he didn't willingly go along with the shift. From Marvin's first draft as a Bengal head coach, to 2005's version of Marvin repeatedly uttering "take their breath away" to this seasons "whatver you want to do, Brat"...not to mention Marvin's admission that he was the one who called for the disasterous pass against Tampa that let that team get back in the game.

I still think that in our little game of Clue here, Mikey makes the more compelling suspect given his love of the passing game.

Not a chance. Mike's love of the passing game is so well known I've made it the keystone in my Bastard Sons of Paul Brown ranting, but he doesn't gameplan. Nor does he call plays. Rather, he builds and he tinkers...including selecting coaches who he believes will do his bidding. Obviously, that's Brat. But there's no way this discussion can go forward without acknowledging how Marvin Lewis has been a willing partner in everything that has transpired.

I think you discount it because you couldn't imagine a middle manager having his knees cut out by his boss like that and taking it. But in light of recent events - namely, Marvin returning with no noticeable concessions - we know that's exactly what he's doing. Taking it.

Can't imagine what? Even before the season began I openly predicted that Marvin Lewis wouldn't get anything he was demanding, and those feelings were only strengthened watching this team stumble to a 4-12 record that deprived Lewis of any leverage he may have once had. So yeah, he's taking it now because he has no choice but take it. That said, with the exception of 2009 when defections, death, and injuries dictated a heavy shift towards running the ball Marvin Lewis has never done anything that demonstrates a lack of committment to the passing game under his watch. At best you can speculate, without evidence, that it isn't his first love. However, it's fair to say that he has bought in, and did so from the start.

[volcom69]

From Lance's blog

Where Marvin failed this year

I was listening to ESPN 1530 this morning. Trey Wingo said, "Bears coach Lovie Smith doesn't get enough credit for how he managed his offensive coordinator this year. That offense was a train wreck early in the year. He went to Mike Martz and said, 'we need to feature Matt Forte'.

Boy, that gets to the heart of the matter. Our oc, Bob Martzkowski, was just left to go on his merry, dysfunctional, way: forcing pass after pass at the loon platoon until the season was shot, Ced was planning his escape from Cinci, and we had forfeited any toughness we'd developed in the '09 season.

Agreed, but the changes made in Chicago went far beyond featuring Matt Forte. That team made the traditionally unthinkable choice of embracing numerous changes in their offensive line during the season. Then, and even more importantly, Lovie told Martz to drop the deep passing game in favor of shorter drops. That not only helped the offensive line, but resulted in far fewer mistakes made by Cutler. In short, more running and a shift to a checkdown passing game resulted in less pressure on everyone, from an O-line that lacks experience and talent, to a mistake prone big-armed QB, to a WR corp that might be one of the worst in the NFL.

So why didn't Marvin do what Lovie did, have a sit down with the OC and set his ass straight?

The obvious answer is Marvin fully embraced the shift from a running attack to one built around the talents of the Two-Loon Platoon. Which explains why I wanted him fired. But with him returning, and presumably Brat as well, our best hope rests with a shift towards a New England style small ball attack featuring Gresham and Shipley or more of the same familiar Clockwork Orange scheme, but built around better play from the WR position. Or more likely a combination of the two. But regardless, Smashball seems dead and buried due to the changes already made at the TE position and the increasingly likely departure of Benson.

PS - The Saints win the '09 Super Bowl, and that's all Bob needed to abandon the power game and go to clockwork orange. Meanwhile this year, look who's in the AFC championship game, the Steelers and the Jets! But a punishing running game wasn't good enough for us.

Run the ball, play great defense, print playoff tickets.

Well thats what they should have done in the begining of the season, when they noticed Carson was not seeing the field like he once was, short drops, and running the ball. I cant help but wonder why wait till the end of the season to change the way you played? Carson is not the same player everyone sees that, so help the guy out, run the ball and have use check downs, quick passes, screens i guess kind of like the west coast offense. Thats what they need to do get back to that kind of play, sure its not fancy, but whatever works go with it.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

Not a chance. Mike's love of the passing game is so well known I've made it the keystone in my Bastard Sons of Paul Brown ranting, but he doesn't gameplan. Nor does he call plays. Rather, he builds and he tinkers...including selecting coaches who he believes will do his bidding. Obviously, that's Brat.

We're not talking down to the game level or Mikey calling plays. I'm talking about a coaching power play by the OC. OC says "Boss, Marvin won't let me call the plays." Idiot boss says "Marvin, Brat's the offense expert. He knows best. Let him call the offense." Doesn't require low-level meddling, just a nice chop to Marvin's knees.

So yeah, he's taking it now because he has no choice but take it. That said, with the exception of 2009 when defections, death, and injuries dictated a heavy shift towards running the ball Marvin Lewis has never done anything that demonstrates a lack of committment to the passing game under his watch. At best you can speculate, without evidence, that it isn't his first love. However, it's fair to say that he has bought in, and did so from the start.

Actually, Marvin did have a choice - he could walk. In prior debates, you'd claimed that Marvin's lack of complaining or ranting about being chopped by Mikey in favor of Brat is effectively evidence that it hasn't happened. I'm now claiming that there's no way to tell because the outward signs would be the same - Marvin taking it, followed by a frowny face on the sidelines (ever-present) and general disdain for the media.

Ultimately, it's impossible to tell because we have a problem separating variables. Because, you see, Brat's been here since the beginning. And now we have another insight into Mikey's meddling. Marvin's been through how many DCs, and how many OCs? You think it's crazy that the same owner who forbids Marvin from firing Brat isn't also handing Brat latitude to call whatever plays he wants? Seems human nature to me.

In the end, I also rely on a sanity argument. No way a sane person, let alone a smash-mouth defense guy, keeps voluntarily throwing the ball to a pair of retards (pronounced 'ruh-TARDS'), whom he clearly can't stand, when he has Cedric Benson back there.

I mean really - if Marvin runs personnel on this team, TO never wears stripes, and Chad doesn't wear stripes after 2005, right? You're saying the same guy who would have run him out of town also feeds him the ball? Doesn't make sense.

[volcom69]

Bengalsinsider.com is saying that Brat is confirmed for 2011 season. Now weather or not the report is true, im not sure however it probably is. Reedy says nothing is confirmed yet!

Rumor was that Marvin wanted to promote Zampese to OC, if what the Insider wrote was true then Marvin will never get what he wants. I have no clue then why he even came back to this crap!!!!! Marvin probably tried, and Mike stood his ground and shot Marvin down. If i was Marvin i would have walked out right then and there!!!!

If true, then i cant see Carson being very happy about this move at all. Hell he didnt even want to comment when Marvin came back, i can not see him being very happy about this if true. So looks like we are stuck with the same old crap, and nothing will change which gives me nothing to look forward too.

[COB]

I'll pose the same question I asked a couple weeks ago: How bad does Brat have to fail to get his ass fired out of here?

[Kazkal]

I'll pose the same question I asked a couple weeks ago: How bad does Brat have to fail to get his ass fired out of here?

He has to die or get a better job somewhere else.

[HairOnFire]

We're not talking down to the game level or Mikey calling plays. I'm talking about a coaching power play by the OC. OC says "Boss, Marvin won't let me call the plays." Idiot boss says "Marvin, Brat's the offense expert. He knows best. Let him call the offense." Doesn't require low-level meddling, just a nice chop to Marvin's knees.

So why would Marvin repeatedly defend Brat to a press that smells blood? And why would he go out of his way to say that the ridiculous decision to pass late in the game against Tampa was his and his alone?

In prior debates, you'd claimed that Marvin's lack of complaining or ranting about being chopped by Mikey in favor of Brat is effectively evidence that it hasn't happened. I'm now claiming that there's no way to tell because the outward signs would be the same - Marvin taking it, followed by a frowny face on the sidelines (ever-present) and general disdain for the media.

If you admit there's no way of knowing then why spin conspiracy scenarios based upon the idea of the head coach whose been here for 8 seasons having almost no control over his teams offense?

Marvin's been through how many DCs, and how many OCs? You think it's crazy that the same owner who forbids Marvin from firing Brat isn't also handing Brat latitude to call whatever plays he wants? Seems human nature to me.

Seems human nature to me that any head coach, offensive or defensive, would be more critical of assistant coaches who work within his own area of expertise.

I mean really - if Marvin runs personnel on this team, TO never wears stripes, and Chad doesn't wear stripes after 2005, right? You're saying the same guy who would have run him out of town also feeds him the ball? Doesn't make sense.

You seem to be forgetting how TO was a Bengal only because Antonio Bryant was damaged goods. Furthermore, Marvin hasn't said much about last season but he has said the Bryant injury was a far bigger factor than most realize. Personally, I don't doubt it.

As for his relationship with Chad? Who the f**k knows whats going on there? All I know is Marvin acts like an enabler far more than a disciplinarian and if he wanted to end the relationship he probably could make it happen just by pushing a few of Chad's buttons. Instead, he tells all of us that we don't understand their relationship and with very few exceptions defends Chad like any parent would defend a stupid child.

[Sea Ray]

Yeah, but for me it's less about the lack of changes in Cincy -- though that's certainly aggravating -- and more about all the uncertainty surrounding the CBA. Until that gets resolved, there isn't much worth getting excited about. Free agency? Won't be any. Trades? Won't be any. There will be a draft but I'm not sure it will matter if teams can't sign picks without a new CBA, and I haven't seen it categorically stated that they can.

Until a CBA is signed there can be no player movement at all. No trades, no draftee or FA signees even undrafted ones. This means we won't see Chad getting traded on draft day or anytime for that matter until this thing is settled.

[gregstephens]

Bengalsinsider.com is saying that Brat is confirmed for 2011 season. Now weather or not the report is true, im not sure however it probably is. Reedy says nothing is confirmed yet!

Rumor was that Marvin wanted to promote Zampese to OC, if what the Insider wrote was true then Marvin will never get what he wants. I have no clue then why he even came back to this crap!!!!! Marvin probably tried, and Mike stood his ground and shot Marvin down. If i was Marvin i would have walked out right then and there!!!!

If true, then i cant see Carson being very happy about this move at all. Hell he didnt even want to comment when Marvin came back, i can not see him being very happy about this if true. So looks like we are stuck with the same old crap, and nothing will change which gives me nothing to look forward too.

Why would Marvin come back to this crap? Simple...it's a job. Nobody else was knocking on his door.

As for me, I'll never be an active supporter again until Brat is gone. I'll follow the games, but my spirit is done until at the least he is out of town.

[jjakq27]

Yeah, but for me it's less about the lack of changes in Cincy -- though that's certainly aggravating -- and more about all the uncertainty surrounding the CBA. Until that gets resolved, there isn't much worth getting excited about. Free agency? Won't be any. Trades? Won't be any. There will be a draft but I'm not sure it will matter if teams can't sign picks without a new CBA, and I haven't seen it categorically stated that they can.

Until a CBA is signed there can be no player movement at all. No trades, no draftee or FA signees even undrafted ones. This means we won't see Chad getting traded on draft day or anytime for that matter until this thing is settled.

Will there be a draft?

[cincyhokie]

Yeah, but for me it's less about the lack of changes in Cincy -- though that's certainly aggravating -- and more about all the uncertainty surrounding the CBA. Until that gets resolved, there isn't much worth getting excited about. Free agency? Won't be any. Trades? Won't be any. There will be a draft but I'm not sure it will matter if teams can't sign picks without a new CBA, and I haven't seen it categorically stated that they can.

Until a CBA is signed there can be no player movement at all. No trades, no draftee or FA signees even undrafted ones. This means we won't see Chad getting traded on draft day or anytime for that matter until this thing is settled.

Will there be a draft?

There will indeed be a draft. Everything else may go on hold however.

[HairOnFire]

From Pffffttttt.....

Marvin Lewis vows offensive changes; takes another shot at Ochocinco

Posted by Gregg Rosenthal on January 20, 2011, 2:23 PM EST

Bengals coach Marvin Lewis wouldn’t elaborate on wide receiver Chad Ochocinco’s future in Cincinnati on Thursday, but he took exception to Ocho’s recent tweets wondering about joining the Patriots.

“Nobody was talking about him,” Lewis said via Bengals.com. “He didn’t stand that. You want them to talk about you, win football games.”

(Yes, Lewis’ words were likely tongue in check. Yes, his words are true.)

Geoff Hobson of the Bengals.com writes that “everyone expects” a divorce with Ochocinco. We’ll take his word for it. We’ll also take Lewis’ word that he doesn’t wanted to completely change his offensive system with a possible lockout on the way.

“They’re clamoring for heads and I understand that,” Lewis said via Joe Reedy of the Cincinnati Enquirer. “Right now at this point I’m not ready to give them heads.”

It appears offensive coordinator Bob Bratkowski will be back, with “minimal” staff changes likely on the way. Lewis said that he wants 2009 first round pick Andre Smith to play right tackle, not guard. Lewis also wants an identity on offense.

“What upsets me is I can’t tell who we are,” Lewis said. “My disappointment is I can’t tell you what we are. The key to offense is to be offensive and stay offensive. What we are is a big statement. It has to be all encompassing.”

We have a feeling Ochocinco will find Lewis’ comments offensive. Again.

[jjakq27]

http://cincinnati.co...-and-ochocinco/

Benson was critical of the offense's direction this past season, especially offensive coordinator Bob Bratkowski. With Bratkowski's return seemingly all but officially announced, the odds of Benson re-signing here are dim but Lewis is still holding out hope.

"Ced can be discouraged but Ced is going to answer your question and not look in the mirror and realize that he's part of that. Unfortunately we all are," Lewis said. "Ced's passion and energy will make us a great football team again and I don't want to curtail that and you have to take the bad with the good. I opened up the season talking that it was going to be difficult for Ced with all the attention going to the receivers and that he was going to have to hang through this."

Benson is slated to be an unrestricted free agent this season and has posted 1,000-yard seasons two straight years. The one thing that Benson had to enjoy hearing though is that a true fullback will be part of the offense next season.

Chris Pressley has the inside track to the spot but Fui Vakapuna will also compete after being on IR last year after Vakapuna injured his shoulder in training camp. James Develin was signed to the offseason roster and Garrett Mills, a late-season signing, can also play fullback.

Said Lewis: "Once we got Chris up and going in our offense I felt like we were better. It would surprise me a great deal if we didn't open the season with at least one fullback on our roster, maybe two."

[jjakq27]

http://www.bengals.c...da-e16024be4336

Lewis indicated that he wants to streamline an offense with a scheme that does less better.

"We've been all over the board a little bit too much and I think we have to focus in on what we are and what we're going to be and how we're going to do it," he said. "The most effective offensive teams in the league do things over and over again and they build upon that. More with less."

..........

He says the changes don't have to be wholesale because "we're not very far off where we need be, but we need to be more demanding in certain situations and we need to be better." It was a miserable season, but he said the major reason he came back is because he feels more in sync with Bengals president Mike Brown than at any point in their nine seasons together.

"The only way to fix it is to work harder and work better. There is no magic dust," Lewis said. "Maybe if we lopped off some heads we'd be better. Maybe we wouldn't."

[jjakq27]

http://cincinnati.co...tion-on-future/

"In my own mind I have a clearer direction of things we need to revise and really revamp, not improve on, basically revamp. As we go forward with change I feel better about it because I know why we're going to change. There's things I know we have to do and we haven't done effectively. We haven't done a great job of attacking (on offense and defense)." The one thing Lewis didn't see was a consistent identity on offense, and that irks him.

"Right now what upsets me is I can't tell you what we are," Lewis said. "We've been all over the board a little bit too much and we have to focus in on what we are, what we are going to be and how we're going to do it. The most effective offensive teams in the league are doing things over and over and building upon on that."

That though can be all encompassing, from being more effective in the running game to doing a better job of putting Carson Palmer in better situations. As Lewis noted: "We can't allow anyone to steal Carson's thunder. Ever. Again."

..........

When asked though if the staff that leaves for the Senior Bowl on Sunday will be Lewis’ staff for the upcoming season, he wasn’t ready to go that far yet.

Said Lewis: “I think we still have a chance for change. We still have an opportunity to revise some things.

..........

As far as being a different offense, Lewis says it will be more balanced but has to be more effective. In the running game, which averaged .7 yards less last year compared to when they won the division in '09, Lewis pointed to errors in the entire offense, from lack of execution up front to backs slipping or making misreads.

In order to be effective though, they have to commit fewer turnovers. Their 34 fumbles and interceptions this past season led to opponents converting those into 113 points.

[volcom69]

So what was the point in changing the offense that got you to win the afc north???? I dont understand, just because you bring in TO dosnt mean you have to throw the ball more. So whats the big overhaul changes that we are going to see???? This team is one big secret

[jjakq27]

I realize i will take some heat for this but how about Brian Daboll for OC? I thought he did a good job with what he had and is at least creative. Another thing about katie's response where she took a shot at anybody that listens to sports talk , i can guaretee you that 90 percent that listen know a lot of football and could help the bengals. They have a major case of denial.

Gone to Miami

http://www.miamihera...duce-brian.html

[HairOnFire]

As Lewis noted: "We can't allow anyone to steal Carson's thunder. Ever. Again."

I'm guessing there are no mirrors in Marvin Lewis's home.