The days of Carson Palmer are over.

[Wraith]

It was nice that he came in at the same time as Marvin Lewis, but you can stick a fork in both of them. It's over. Marvin couldn't coach his way out of a wet paper bag, and Carson would be lucky to get out of a game without throwing up a pick six.

If the Bengals do not take a QB in the 1st round of the 2011 draft, the suckage will continue.

The suckage will continue as long as the Bengals as an organization do not recognize the holes in their collective evaluation process.

This is really very simple. Come up with a list of core values you must have in your organization, do not vary from these core values regardless of talent/temptation.

I would suggest that these core values should start with a) Intelligence both football itelligence and logical intelligence, this game is all about logic and a passion for the game of football to the point where a loss of the ability to play the game would be so painful that is is unthinkable. Then when doing your draft evaluation isolate players you must have and get them, if they are gone do not draft a guy just to draft a guy trade down to put yourself in position to get your next guy, do not settle and prepare yourself so that there are no surprises early in the draft. Know the draft board, know who your opponents are likely to draft and who are your "friends" people who have needs in areas you do not and negotiate with them to position yourself. Evaluate each player yourself, do not rely on drafting services and agent dominated "experts". The Bengals have no strategy in the draft room, they seem disorganized and disoriented, they make picks off of emotion rather than a sound logical basis. They display no creativity and do nothing to position themselves to get players they target. What separates the Bengals from the Patriots begins during draft day, if the Bengals drafted with a purpose they would not have the kinds of issues they deal with today. It is not about talent but rather having the RIGHT talent. Example...Andre Smith was more talented than Eugene Monroe but Monroe is a better person, more intelligent, and is more passionate about football, result Andre Smith cannot get on the field because of weight issues and motivation issues, Monroe starts for the Jaguars and is a key element to their offensive line and one of the reasons why they are contending for a playoff spot.

Until the organization changes it's approach to drafting and development of players this misery will continue.

[cincyhokie]

I think there are two keys to the offense.

1. Emotional status of Carson, meaning his ability to forge ahead despite all the failure, ie is his heart in it.

2. The ability of this coaching staff to coach and manage the personnel that they have, ie getting the most from the players by maximizing what they do well.

Regarding Carson, I don't feel he will flourish here any longer. No coaching changes can replace his heart. I don't see he has any emotional equity left with this team. It is used up. Empty. They could bring in ANY O coordinator and he'd be working with warmed over week-old flank steak trying to make it into filet mignon. Not gonna happen. Pair this with his injury history and propensity to throw from his back foot and you have a guy who, from the business side, is not worth the money he is due and is not the guy to build around any longer.

It was mentioned that he will be snapped up, and yes I agree. He will go somewhere and start, perhaps even Seattle and reunite with Carroll, and he may even enjoy some success in a fresh start where an organization is anything but the Brown Family.

Regarding the coaching staff, this offense has now hit the side of the mountain. Continued penalties (poor coaching), continued lack of running the ball (coaching), continued telegraphed playcalling (coaching). Heck, when TO explains that they make no adjustments, this says a lot. Brat has ONE new play per game. This week, it was the Tackle eligible for a TD. Great.

The offense is stale, predictable, does not work and simply fails. Forcing this offense on a cast of players who cannot execute is perhaps the greatest mistake of all. They do not run plays that take advantage of the ability of the players, the make the players run plays that fit their scheme. This is backwards. Design a scheme to do what they players DO BEST. How many passes did Gresham have yesterday? There ya go.

And now for my most blatantly obvious and well-known point, but make it I must. This team has FAR too muck over lap of ownership into the function of the team. The ownership runs the business, or should have qualified folks do that job. Their job is to make a profit. The job of the coaches and players is to win games. What is missing is the layer of management that separates the two functions and prevents the business from preventing the team from winning, and the team from preventing the owners from making money. In my equation, winning is first, profit is second. Winning begets profiting. Win on the field, make money after. Lose on the field, profits will not come.

Unfortunately, SoP has determined that by fielding a near-winner, he can exploit the business arrangements with the NFL, County and fans and still make a profit by having us consume a sub-standard product on the "hope of potential" of the improvement of that product. One step forward, two steps back, lose on Sunday, money out our pocket and into the Brown family coffers.

The Browns are CLEARLY not qualified to produce a quality offering but enjoy the spoils of the engineered parity and profit sharing in the NFL. Profits first, winning, eh, somewhere in there but not the top priority.

Get a management team to create separation between the ownership family and the functions of the football team and this place could have a chance. Until that happens, welcome to loser-town.

See ya Carson, I wish you well as a Seahawk*, Cardinal, Dolphin, Titan, Raider, Bronco, Viking^ or wherever you go.

* Reunite with Carroll

^ Reunite with Frazier

Edit to add I just read this stat from Gazoo (John Clayton) over at espn.com: Carson Palmer had two more interceptions for touchdowns that increased his career total to 15, the most of any quarterback since 2004.

Yeah, all parties have contributed to the demise of this offense. The constants are Carson, Brat and Marvin.

So if another team is able to rehab the terrible Carson Palmer and the Bengals can't (by changing the coaching and key offensive pieces) then how much hope do we have anyway? Why even bother if we're just going to ruin another QB?

This is how I see it:

Replace Brat, fix O-line, replace WR's, DUMP Carson, draft QB = suck bad for at least 3 years.

or

Replace Brat, draft O-line in early rounds, replace WR's, KEEP Carson = better chance for improvement.

In our Madden-like instant gratification minds we assume that just by drafting another college QB, we're going to have some kind of instant stud. It's not that simple or likely.

Bengals, 42 years of existance, 3 QB's were drafted that had success. 3. That's it. Anderson, Boomer, Palmer.

[COB]

Replace Brat, draft O-line in early rounds, replace WR's, KEEP Carson = better chance for improvement.

That's where I come down on it. Replacing Carson will set this team waaaay back. New OC, some better protection, some receivers who want to be part of a team. That's our best recipe for success.

This way, assuming he doesn't keep throwing to the other team, Carson can stick around, play at what I hope will be a high level with a new OC, and be here to mentor our next quarterback. And that quarterback may already be on the roster. LeFevour was a goldang stud at Central Michigan, though I've seen nothing about his progress practically since we signed him.

If LeFevour isn't it, then try to find one to bring in. Guys who sit for a couple years have a much better chance of developing into good QBs than guys who get thrown right in there. That first season is usually pretty tragic for the fans, too, and I think we've all suffered enough.

[HairOnFire]

FWIW I think the only way Palmer isn't this teams starting QB next season is if he takes Boomer's suggestion and walks into Mike Browns office and demands a trade. And truth be told I doubt even that would get the job done.

Make me the boss and I gut this teams WR corp, upgrade the O-line wherever possible, and return to a core offensive scheme built around a power running game. Palmer can stay for now, not because I think he's still an elite QB, but rather....because I wouldn't need one.

Granted, I guess if Luck is there you have to consider drafting him, but I can't see Carolina passing on him or trading the pick. And I'm not going to bash Cam Newton like so many others do, but neither do I consider him a legit top#5 option.

As for the 1st round of the draft I'd select AJ Green for screamingly obvious reasons.

[bwillycuse]

That floating out route kills us every time.

Also killing us: receivers who won't come back for the ball. Chad.

Interesting stats that goes to debate early in season.

3 of Carson's interceptions thrown to Chad, 65 reception - 123 targets - 41 targets/Int

11 to TO, 72 rec - 139 targets - 13 targets/Int

3 to Gresham, 47 rec - 75 targets - 25/Int

1 to Shipley, 47 rec - 65 targets - 65/Int

[BengalPimp]

Replace Brat, draft O-line in early rounds, replace WR's, KEEP Carson = better chance for improvement.

That's where I come down on it. Replacing Carson will set this team waaaay back. New OC, some better protection, some receivers who want to be part of a team. That's our best recipe for success.

I'm with you guys

[BengalPimp]

That floating out route kills us every time.

Also killing us: receivers who won't come back for the ball. Chad.

Interesting stats that goes to debate early in season.

3 of Carson's interceptions thrown to Chad, 65 reception - 123 targets - 41 targets/Int

11 to TO, 72 rec - 139 targets - 13 targets/Int

3 to Gresham, 47 rec - 75 targets - 25/Int

1 to Shipley, 47 rec - 65 targets - 65/Int

Great Stats

[Chad Johnson]

I have to disagree with you guys. I think the players coming out of college today are not what it used to be. Many teams have shown they can win consistently with young QBs. Matt Ryan is now one of the top QB's in the league. Ravens dont have problems winning with Flacco. Josh Freeman has how many 4th Quarter comeback wins this year. Sam Bradford is playing great ball this year. Im not saying you dont go through some growing pains with a rookie QB but plain and simple Palmer is not getting it done and I think his time here in Cincy is done. If there was a Jake Long Joe Thomas in this years draft then yeah I would be all over that guy but I definately do not thin reachin with probably the 2nd overall pick for a player that should be out of top 10 is the right decision.

[cincyhokie]

I have to disagree with you guys. I think the players coming out of college today are not what it used to be. Many teams have shown they can win consistently with young QBs. Matt Ryan is now one of the top QB's in the league. Ravens dont have problems winning with Flacco. Josh Freeman has how many 4th Quarter comeback wins this year. Sam Bradford is playing great ball this year. Im not saying you dont go through some growing pains with a rookie QB but plain and simple Palmer is not getting it done and I think his time here in Cincy is done. If there was a Jake Long Joe Thomas in this years draft then yeah I would be all over that guy but I definately do not thin reachin with probably the 2nd overall pick for a player that should be out of top 10 is the right decision.

Flacco has good o-line and a great defense. Let's not kid ourselves. You can't seriously look at the state of this team and think a rookie could excel in it.

Gut this team, fix the lines. Then maybe next year bring in a new QB. We have to be realistic here. We're dealing with multiple holes and MB fixing those holes. This isn't Madden. Or the Ravens for that matter.

[HoosierCat]

You can't seriously look at the state of this team and think a rookie could excel in it.

Nope. The Bengals took that route -- draft a top QB and stick him behind a crap line on a crap team -- multiple times in the Nineties. It didn't work with Klingler or Smith and it won't work with Newton or Luck.

[Sea Ray]

FWIW I think the only way Palmer isn't this teams starting QB next season is if he takes Boomer's suggestion and walks into Mike Browns office and demands a trade. And truth be told I doubt even that would get the job done.

Make me the boss and I gut this teams WR corp, upgrade the O-line wherever possible, and return to a core offensive scheme built around a power running game. Palmer can stay for now, not because I think he's still an elite QB, but rather....because I wouldn't need one.

Granted, I guess if Luck is there you have to consider drafting him, but I can't see Carolina passing on him or trading the pick. And I'm not going to bash Cam Newton like so many others do, but neither do I consider him a legit top#5 option.

As for the 1st round of the draft I'd select AJ Green for screamingly obvious reasons.

A power running game only works with an elite defense which has been a rare sight in this franchise's history. They need a disciplined passing game where they practice it so much they can complete passes with their eyes closed. Of course this requires a disciplined coach which Brat nor Marvin are. They need a guy like Hue Jackson to pull that off. The offense makes too many mistakes and it is too predictable. Look at the best teams in the league, Eagles, Patriots, Saints, Colts, SD...they all have high powered passing games. The running games of Balt and Pitt only work if the defense is making plays like last night or Pitt on Sunday.

[Sea Ray]

I'm all for drafting Luck because he's so special but if he's not available I say pass on bringing another young QB into this mess

[kingwilly]

My HS buddy from Facebook just posted that Carson's Indian Hill house is for sale. He lives in the area and knows.

Maybe this is the best indicator he's done in this town?

[Kazkal]

I'm all for drafting Luck because he's so special but if he's not available I say pass on bringing another young QB into this mess

That's pretty much my Stance,If you have a shot at someone you think will be special go for it.It's not like we have to start him that season and let him get killed behind the Oline...I'd support Carson in feature seasons I just worry with him being 31 do we have enough time to rebuild and win with him?

Will he have the heart in the process? because if we Replace the """Entire""" Offensive Coaching Staff if we rebuild the Oline the WR Core it's going to take time...

[ShulaSteakhouse]

My HS buddy from Facebook just posted that Carson's Indian Hill house is for sale. He lives in the area and knows.

Maybe this is the best indicator he's done in this town?

He bought a huge beach house in CA recently - I don't think it means much for next season, other than he's already thinking about retirement, and is certainly tired of the cold winters here (as well as playing in them). He just seems like a guy who doesn't care all that much, he's just very professional/low key. As mentioned above, Palmer likely won't be going on anywhere as long as Brown wants him here, which is likely through the rest of his contract.

Would another west coast guy like Luck really be much different? You really need a big, tough QB like DateRapelisberger here, who can take a beating and keep on ticking, and who doesn't mind the cold/outdoor/crappy conditions constantly.

[kingwilly]

Being in a position to take Luck, or Newton, means there will be those who want to move up and get him. 7-8 of the top 10 NEED a QB like Luck or Newton. Sitting at 2, they could get out of the spot and amass many picks.

Working a deal with NE to allow them to get Fairley or Bowers should be tempting to them. This team needs two r1 picks more than it needs 1.

Getting two would allow them to address OT and WR, or OT and DE. They need this more than they need Luck, Newton or Fairley.

[kingwilly]

My HS buddy from Facebook just posted that Carson's Indian Hill house is for sale. He lives in the area and knows.

Maybe this is the best indicator he's done in this town?

He bought a huge beach house in CA recently - I don't think it means much for next season, other than he's already thinking about retirement, and is certainly tired of the cold winters here (as well as playing in them). He just seems like a guy who doesn't care all that much, he's just very professional/low key. As mentioned above, Palmer likely won't be going on anywhere as long as Brown wants him here, which is likely through the rest of his contract.

Would another west coast guy like Luck really be much different? You really need a big, tough QB like DateRapelisberger here, who can take a beating and keep on ticking, and who doesn't mind the cold/outdoor/crappy conditions constantly.

I don't notice Carson suffering in the conditions. Regarding big and taking a beating, Newton has shown he can take it and dole it, so maybe he is an option?

Short of a big FA move to get a top OT, I still think they could find (and need to find) a suitor and get out of the top of the first round.

[ben]

It was nice that he came in at the same time as Marvin Lewis, but you can stick a fork in both of them. It's over. Marvin couldn't coach his way out of a wet paper bag, and Carson would be lucky to get out of a game without throwing up a pick six.

If the Bengals do not take a QB in the 1st round of the 2011 draft, the suckage will continue.

Why in the world would you want to take a qb in the first round? Haven't we been through this before when Mike Brown falls in love with the skilled position players. what this team needs to do is draft good olinemen with the first five picks. I'm sick of Roland , Livings and Cook all undrafted free agents. Get your qb in the later rounds. If they take a qb early than the excuse will be well it' going to take three years to develop a young qb.

[Kazkal]

double post

[Kazkal]

My HS buddy from Facebook just posted that Carson's Indian Hill house is for sale. He lives in the area and knows.

Maybe this is the best indicator he's done in this town?

He bought a huge beach house in CA recently - I don't think it means much for next season,

W

He may have bought a new house but he's been living in Cali quite some time now no?

Would another west coast guy like Luck really be much different? You really need a big, tough QB like DateRapelisberger here, who can take a beating and keep on ticking, and who doesn't mind the cold/outdoor/crappy conditions constantly.

Luck is quite Nimble ala Aaron Rodgers vs the Statues of Carson & Peyton Manning,But if you want Bigben type thats probably Newton

Why in the world would you want to take a qb in the first round? Haven't we been through this before when Mike Brown falls in love with the skilled position players. what this team needs to do is draft good olinemen with the first five picks. I'm sick of Roland , Livings and Cook all undrafted free agents. Get your qb in the later rounds. If they take a qb early than the excuse will be well it' going to take three years to develop a young qb.

-Because Mike Brown fell in love with Akili Smith I dont quite see a Akili type of QB

-There currently are no Olinemen considered top 10 picks

-I'm Sick of ROnald & Livings too but our problem is the Offensive Line Coach...Mathis is a better guard then livings hands down but the genius insists on starting Livings ...We need someone who can coach players up how many offensive lines are only made out of only 1st & 2nd round picks?Steelers Oline has always been AVG when it's at it's best yet they are successful.

[Chad Johnson]

I have to disagree with you guys. I think the players coming out of college today are not what it used to be. Many teams have shown they can win consistently with young QBs. Matt Ryan is now one of the top QB's in the league. Ravens dont have problems winning with Flacco. Josh Freeman has how many 4th Quarter comeback wins this year. Sam Bradford is playing great ball this year. Im not saying you dont go through some growing pains with a rookie QB but plain and simple Palmer is not getting it done and I think his time here in Cincy is done. If there was a Jake Long Joe Thomas in this years draft then yeah I would be all over that guy but I definately do not thin reachin with probably the 2nd overall pick for a player that should be out of top 10 is the right decision.

Flacco has good o-line and a great defense. Let's not kid ourselves. You can't seriously look at the state of this team and think a rookie could excel in it.

Gut this team, fix the lines. Then maybe next year bring in a new QB. We have to be realistic here. We're dealing with multiple holes and MB fixing those holes. This isn't Madden. Or the Ravens for that matter.

Yes I absolutely think one could. The O line is not that good. but Palmers decision making is terrible and I believe his heart is not in winning here anymore. I think Cam Newton and his ability to run and extend plays when protection breaks down could be exactly what this team need. I would take Luck over Newton though because I think Luck could possibly develop into a great QB. And am I saying a new QB will be the answer to our team no... not at all I wouldnt be surprised if Caldwell and Shipley are the WRs next year. so then I think every position in the O needs upgraded. Honestly a trade down would be best available scenario but I dont see it happening.

[cincyhokie]

I have to disagree with you guys. I think the players coming out of college today are not what it used to be. Many teams have shown they can win consistently with young QBs. Matt Ryan is now one of the top QB's in the league. Ravens dont have problems winning with Flacco. Josh Freeman has how many 4th Quarter comeback wins this year. Sam Bradford is playing great ball this year. Im not saying you dont go through some growing pains with a rookie QB but plain and simple Palmer is not getting it done and I think his time here in Cincy is done. If there was a Jake Long Joe Thomas in this years draft then yeah I would be all over that guy but I definately do not thin reachin with probably the 2nd overall pick for a player that should be out of top 10 is the right decision.

Flacco has good o-line and a great defense. Let's not kid ourselves. You can't seriously look at the state of this team and think a rookie could excel in it.

Gut this team, fix the lines. Then maybe next year bring in a new QB. We have to be realistic here. We're dealing with multiple holes and MB fixing those holes. This isn't Madden. Or the Ravens for that matter.

Yes I absolutely think one could. The O line is not that good. but Palmers decision making is terrible and I believe his heart is not in winning here anymore. I think Cam Newton and his ability to run and extend plays when protection breaks down could be exactly what this team need. I would take Luck over Newton though because I think Luck could possibly develop into a great QB. And am I saying a new QB will be the answer to our team no... not at all I wouldnt be surprised if Caldwell and Shipley are the WRs next year. so then I think every position in the O needs upgraded. Honestly a trade down would be best available scenario but I dont see it happening.

A trade down scenario is MUCH more likely than the Bengals letting Palmer go. If they do draft Luck or another QB in the first round, so be it. They had better address the other GAPING offensive holes too because Palmer is the QB in 2011 and probably 2012. He's not going anywhere.

[Chad Johnson]

I have to disagree with you guys. I think the players coming out of college today are not what it used to be. Many teams have shown they can win consistently with young QBs. Matt Ryan is now one of the top QB's in the league. Ravens dont have problems winning with Flacco. Josh Freeman has how many 4th Quarter comeback wins this year. Sam Bradford is playing great ball this year. Im not saying you dont go through some growing pains with a rookie QB but plain and simple Palmer is not getting it done and I think his time here in Cincy is done. If there was a Jake Long Joe Thomas in this years draft then yeah I would be all over that guy but I definately do not thin reachin with probably the 2nd overall pick for a player that should be out of top 10 is the right decision.

Flacco has good o-line and a great defense. Let's not kid ourselves. You can't seriously look at the state of this team and think a rookie could excel in it.

Gut this team, fix the lines. Then maybe next year bring in a new QB. We have to be realistic here. We're dealing with multiple holes and MB fixing those holes. This isn't Madden. Or the Ravens for that matter.

Yes I absolutely think one could. The O line is not that good. but Palmers decision making is terrible and I believe his heart is not in winning here anymore. I think Cam Newton and his ability to run and extend plays when protection breaks down could be exactly what this team need. I would take Luck over Newton though because I think Luck could possibly develop into a great QB. And am I saying a new QB will be the answer to our team no... not at all I wouldnt be surprised if Caldwell and Shipley are the WRs next year. so then I think every position in the O needs upgraded. Honestly a trade down would be best available scenario but I dont see it happening.

A trade down scenario is MUCH more likely than the Bengals letting Palmer go. If they do draft Luck or another QB in the first round, so be it. They had better address the other GAPING offensive holes too because Palmer is the QB in 2011 and probably 2012. He's not going anywhere.

And thats why we are the cincinnati Bengals. How many other teams in this league would justify paying the league leader in interceptions 12 mil when we dont have cap penalties anymore.

[HoosierCat]

And thats why we are the cincinnati Bengals. How many other teams in this league would justify paying the league leader in interceptions 12 mil when we dont have cap penalties anymore.

Right. Instead, the Bengals should pay $12 million a year to a guy who's never taken a snap in the NFL! That make more sense!

I'll say this much for HoF's BSoPB rant: he's right in that the minute everything goes south, suddenly the answer is to throw out the QBs and WRs we do have...and then spend all our draft picks on new QBs and WRs...

Meanwhile the D continues to circle the s**tter...

[volcom69]

This whole team needs blown up, not just the QB postion. Its time for changes in Cinci, what we have is just not working.

Coaching is horrible, two winning seasons in 8 years that is nothing to brag about. Still the laughing stock in the NFL, coaches still havent figured out how to save timeouts, or actully make in game changes....yea its time for a change.

Its time to start over, whether or not that means its time for another QB, or whether that means its time to build around Carson, idk but something needs to be done. This o-line is awful and needs to be rebuilt again, Carson needs to stop being so scared all the time, its almost like he forgot how to read defenses. I just hope something gets done, its getting harder and harder to watch this team be the laughing stock of the NFL.