The days of Carson Palmer are over.

[BengalszoneBilly]

It was nice that he came in at the same time as Marvin Lewis, but you can stick a fork in both of them. It's over. Marvin couldn't coach his way out of a wet paper bag, and Carson would be lucky to get out of a game without throwing up a pick six.

If the Bengals do not take a QB in the 1st round of the 2011 draft, the suckage will continue.

[jjakq27]

This is one of this turning points for the franchise much like the end of the 2002 season was. Carson and Marvin made this team relevant again for a while. However I think the energy and life has been drained out of this team for a variety of reasons. Poor drafting after 2005, dumb stuff from dumb players, too many injuries, a meandering direction on offense and defense philosophy with no development of a system on either side and an inability to make enough in-game adjustments to beat beatable teams. The stubbornness of ownership to accurately assess their own capabilities, strengths and weaknesses and just dumb luck figure in there as well.

Atlanta is a perfect example of how quickly things can get turned around with the right commitment from management, good personnel acquisition and development and good coaching. Three years ago they were reeling from the whole Michael Vick saga. This year they have a good chance to get to the Super Bowl. As bad as it's been this year, we won with many of the same players last year. I am not sure about Zimmer but I am willing to give him a chance. At least he doesn't seem to tolerate losing or poor effort.

If this is the end, I wish both of them well. I truly hold no ill will towards either of them. In 2005 they were on the way to something big. For awhile they made it fun again.

[cincyhokie]

The suckage will continue regardless. MB is still there.

The suckage will lessen if the Bengals nab the best OT in the draft, rehab the OL, and fire Brat. You could replace Palmer but then you are ignoring bigger problems, in my opinion. The OT talent significantly drops off after the top 5 pick. Take a QB in the draft and suck for a long time by putting a rookie in with a s**tty O-line. Teams begin and end with good line play. This team doesn't have it.

Whatever, though, it's your fantasy. Just don't forget about the part where MB pays Palmer for cutting him.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

I've been of the opinion for some time that his mechanics are terr-i-bull. He throws off the back foot with little velocity on the ball. He throws high constantly. He telegraphs that throw into the flat. I'd like to see them measure Carson's arm strength to see if those floaters he leaves up there are due to noodle arm or terrible mechanics. I also realize that the answer to that question may be "yes."

I'm of the opinion that he may be psychologically defeated from dealing with crap for 7 years, while at the same time he's sort of the golden child - so the coaches he has now may be afraid of breaking him down and rebuilding. But better coaches? Maybe they can do something.

So the questions are the coach, the arm and the psyche. If the OC/QB coaches come back, Carson has to go. If the arm is toast, he's gone. I still think if we get a new kick-ass QB coach and OC, and the arm has something left, and he's willing to get broken down like a rookie, then he should still have the ability to be a good QB.

I realize that's a bunch of "if"s, but I'd rather not have to draft a QB in the first. They have a whole lot of other problems, as hokie points out.

[volcom69]

This team needs alot in order to get back to a winning record. This o-line is horrible, i cant seem to understand why Marvin thought a bunch of college free agents would be fine for this line. Other then Witworth they can all go. I think its time to think about the future, i wouldnt mind them drafting a QB of the future, because Palmer is not getting any younger, and he is not getting any better. Time to start thinking about the future.

[jjakq27]

Keep in mind, drafting in the top 5 is guarantees us a player that will hold-out, miss summer OTA's, be late to camp and have a wasted first year so are we really solving anything by drafting another QB with a high pick?

I think DC is right. Carson needs someone that is able to assess his strengths and weaknesses, not just provide lip service. Honestly Carson should be craving this type of help because I don't think he's gotten honest criticism for years. I think Kitna might have served that purpose while he was here but guys like Krenzel, O'Sullivan, Fitzpatrick and brother Jordan have nothing to offer of substance. What's Norm Chow doing these days? Carson won the Heisman under his tutelage. Who knows him better?

This kind of reminds me of Ken Anderson in the late-70's, early 80's. Anderson suffered greatly when Bill Walsh left the team after the 1975 season. He was on his way out until they stopped the decline by hiring Forrest Gregg as head coach and brought in Lindy Infante as OC. Anderson was MVP in 1981 and led the team to the Super Bowl. He was also helped greatly by the drafting of a guy named Anthony Munoz. Sadly neither Andre Smith or Andrew Whitworth are even close. Perhaps they should go out and get the best offensive lineman in the draft and start from there.

[combatbengal]

I agree that the coaches need to go! But, Palmer is the one who throws into double and triple coverage all the time. He's the one who throw behind the receivers or way over their heads. He's the one on the field that audibles and sends his RB into a blitz. He’s the one who refuses to run with the ball when nobody is open and he has some green in front of him. I say try to tade him; there will be teams interested in him!

[COB]

My family probably thinks I'm worshipping some sort of new hybrid deity, as all afternoon cries of, "Jesus Christ Palmer!" were ringing through our house.

Strangely, that performance today convinced me Carson is not the problem. T.O. and Palmer, two knowledgable vets, can't interpret the defense the way Brat's clockwork orange offense requires. If they can't figure out how to run Brat's offense, no one can.

A new qb would be nice, but is not the most pressing need on this team.

The defense must have figured since the safeties can't cover, go ahead and send everyone. And that s**t worked, so we'll probably see more of the same.

I am perplexed by it, but I was encouraged by the play I saw today. We still need some new coaches and some new players, but it can be done, assuming there is football next year.

[BengalszoneBilly]

I am perplexed by it, but I was encouraged by the play I saw today. We still need some new coaches and some new players, but it can be done, assuming there is football next year.

No doubt that is the biggest question to be answered right now.

[kingwilly]

Carson is toast on this team.

I do think he can be salvaged, a la Brees, but it will need to be elsewhere. Miami, Oakland, SF, Carolina, Arizona, Denver, Seattle, KC, and Minny all will be looking for a new starter. He could go somewhere like Minny or AZ and get it back.

However, he is done here.

Bring on Newton or Luck or Mallet. I really don't care. All of them will not be ruined by the losing and Brat's incompetence.

Bring in the fresh meat.

So long Carson, thanks for all the fish.

Funny, my sons will end up going to his high school, none the less buh-bye.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

My family probably thinks I'm worshipping some sort of new hybrid deity, as all afternoon cries of, "Jesus Christ Palmer!" were ringing through our house.

We can start a church together. I think I kept saying a prayer that ended in something like "for f**k's sake!". I think I forgot the "amen".

Here's one that I think I'll be saying next Sunday:

Dear Mikey, thank you for this colossal clusterfudge of a team. Please deliver them from victory, and preserve their bodies so they may stink up the joint in 2011. Watch over their souls, especially the morons with shows on VH1. Keep them away from all reality TV stars, especially Basketball Wives and Karsashians. In the name of Jesus Christ Palmer, for f**ck's sake, amen.

[Kazkal]

I'm 100% up for taking Either Luck or even Newton I just pray Brat & Alexander are both gone....

[BengalPimp]

Brat has a lot to do with Palmer's struggles. After all, it is Brat's playbook that Carson is running plays from.....I swear over half of his INT's have come on that damn sideline out pattern...usually intended for Chad. While that play is in every teams playbook, I honestly don't know if any team runs it as often as the Bengals do, to the same WR, and for so many years? Defenses watch tape, they know it's coming, and coming every damn series. It's only a matter of time before they are able to successfully jump that route....Granted Carson shouldn't throw some of those passes, but he only has a certain amount of crap plays they even run.....Here's to a new O-Coordinator and more importantly a NEW F'N PLAYBOOK.

I still believe Carson can lead this team deep in the playoffs, but there are just too many pieces missing. O-Line is garbage (save Whitworth), Benson sucks, our Secondary has been ravaged by injuries, we still don't get enough pressure on opposing QB's, The Defense doesn't have 1 player other teams gameplan against specifically, no intimidator, and our LB's although talented, just don't make enough plays.

You can draft whatever QB you want, but if they don't make some serious upgrades at other positions and at O-Coordinator, it won't mean jack sh*t!

Oh yeah, our Special Teams sucks ass too.....especially coverage

[Kazkal]

The suckage will continue regardless. MB is still there.

The suckage will lessen if the Bengals nab the best OT in the draft, rehab the OL, and fire Brat. You could replace Palmer but then you are ignoring bigger problems, in my opinion. The OT talent significantly drops off after the top 5 pick. Take a QB in the draft and suck for a long time by putting a rookie in with a s**tty O-line. Teams begin and end with good line play. This team doesn't have it.

Whatever, though, it's your fantasy. Just don't forget about the part where MB pays Palmer for cutting him.

Taking a top 10 oline May not equate to success either,What we need is a Oline coach who can actually coach players up so we don't need a entire Oline made of 1st & 2nd round picks...

Plus they have quite abit invested in OT atm what I wouldn't mind seeing myself is best Tackle in the 2nd round and then Moving whit to RT Bigdre to guard.

[TJJackson]

Uh, gimme a lineman (prefer OL this time, what with the emergence of Dunlap and Atkins)

[firemarvinNOW]

The suckage will continue regardless. MB is still there.

The suckage will lessen if the Bengals nab the best OT in the draft, rehab the OL, and fire Brat. You could replace Palmer but then you are ignoring bigger problems, in my opinion. The OT talent significantly drops off after the top 5 pick. Take a QB in the draft and suck for a long time by putting a rookie in with a s**tty O-line. Teams begin and end with good line play. This team doesn't have it.

Whatever, though, it's your fantasy. Just don't forget about the part where MB pays Palmer for cutting him.

Taking a top 10 oline May not equate to success either,What we need is a Oline coach who can actually coach players up so we don't need a entire Oline made of 1st & 2nd round picks...

Plus they have quite abit invested in OT atm what I wouldn't mind seeing myself is best Tackle in the 2nd round and then Moving whit to RT Bigdre to guard.

Yes Andre Smith can play guard!!!! Gimme a break Andre Smith cant play anywhere on the OLine in the NFL!!!!

[ArmyBengal]

I think it all starts and ends with Brat. If he stays, Carson will continue to suck. If he goes, Carson gets someone new to break down his issues, and they rebuild the o-line, there's hope. For those that say Carson will do better somewhere else, what's the basis behind that ?? New coaches ?? New schemes ?? New players ?? Well, that can be done here. Problem is, I have little faith it will.

Here's what won't happen:

Fire Marvin and all offensive coaches (Brat especially)

Get rid of Chad and TO

Target at least one high profile o-lineman (yeah I laughed while writing that)

Draft o-line with the first round pick

Help the d-line and secondary

If you build the o-line and Carson sucks again in 2011, they will still be in position to grab a QB the next draft.

[bwillycuse]

I dont want to say Carson is just done here. I'm tired of just running people out of town even though they still have juice in them

We ran Graham out of town and now we have a kicker that never kicked before. We have kickers out there that don't have a job who don't want to kick for us.

Well at least for Graham he is now on the best team in the league. Go figure. We will probably see him kicking in the Super Bowl.

We all know if we jettison Palmer - He will get coached up somewhere else and be good again. I mean Derrick Anderson had a starting job this year. Carson will get swiped up immediately upon release and we all know it.

Its the coaching and amangement. Period. Point Blank. This team is never prepared. Always outcoached. Always Outdrafted.

[Chad Johnson]

Okay I have a few comments of my own personal opinion based off the posts in this topic.

Bengals will be drafting top 5 and there is no O lineman this year worthy of a top 5 pick. especially OT wich would be another monster of a contract. It would take a huge combine/senior bowl performance for one of them to jump that high.

Palmer needs to go because he is getting paid entirely too much for his production. I think he has lost his emotional investment here as well. If he restructured his contract is the only way I see him sticking around. Thus if Palmer leaves we need to draft a QB with that pick.

T.O. no way in hell do I see him wanting to come back here. If Palmer doesnt stick around then Chad needs to go too because I wouldnt want to subject a rookie QB to him.

And I still dont understand all the hatred for Andre Smith...He has been overweight and injury prone yes. but when he plays the RT is a hell of a lot better than without him. He needs to fix all those damn false starts. I think he will develope into a good OT in the league yet and then I wish some1 would rub it in a lot of bengal fans faces because the hate for him is damn near extreme.

ANd everyone on here is absolutely right Bratawski is an effin moron. if he sticks around its gonna b more of the same ol same ol

[gregstephens]

Okay I have a few comments of my own personal opinion based off the posts in this topic.

Bengals will be drafting top 5 and there is no O lineman this year worthy of a top 5 pick. especially OT wich would be another monster of a contract. It would take a huge combine/senior bowl performance for one of them to jump that high.

Palmer needs to go because he is getting paid entirely too much for his production. I think he has lost his emotional investment here as well. If he restructured his contract is the only way I see him sticking around. Thus if Palmer leaves we need to draft a QB with that pick.

T.O. no way in hell do I see him wanting to come back here. If Palmer doesnt stick around then Chad needs to go too because I wouldnt want to subject a rookie QB to him.

And I still dont understand all the hatred for Andre Smith...He has been overweight and injury prone yes. but when he plays the RT is a hell of a lot better than without him. He needs to fix all those damn false starts. I think he will develope into a good OT in the league yet and then I wish some1 would rub it in a lot of bengal fans faces because the hate for him is damn near extreme.

ANd everyone on here is absolutely right Bratawski is an effin moron. if he sticks around its gonna b more of the same ol same ol

You pretty much answered your own question in re Flesh Zepplin. Smith needs to work on false starts and, essentially, all the other aspects of being an NFL Olineman. HOWEVER, he can't work on those because he's injury prone, much of which has to do with him lumbering around close to 400 pounds at times. So...in review...first round draft pick two years ago. Played a handful of games. Not one stitch of progress being made in his play quality. If this guy had been a fifth round pick, he'd been cut long ago.

BUST

[jjakq27]

Smith may well work out but considering all of the reds flags before the draft this was a risky pick from the start. Considering all of the other players that we passed on that were pro-ready makes the pick even more painful. With the exception of a couple of guys, I think you would be happy to have any one of the guys on this list at this point.

1 1 Detroit Lions Matthew Stafford QB Georgia SEC

1 2 St. Louis Rams Jason Smith OT Baylor Big 12

1 3 Kansas City Chiefs Tyson Jackson DE LSU SEC

1 4 Seattle Seahawks Aaron Curry LB Wake Forest ACC

1 5 New York Jets Mark Sanchez QB USC Pac-10 from Cleveland ^{[R1 trade 1]}

1 6 Cincinnati Bengals Andre Smith OT Alabama SEC

1 7 Oakland Raiders Darrius Heyward-Bey WR Maryland ACC

1 8 Jacksonville Jaguars Eugene Monroe OT Virginia ACC

1 9 Green Bay Packers B. J. Raji DT Boston College ACC

1 10 San Francisco 49ers Michael Crabtree WR Texas Tech Big 12

1 11 Buffalo Bills Aaron Maybin DE Penn State Big Ten

1 12 Denver Broncos Knowshon Moreno RB Georgia SEC

1 13 Washington Redskins Brian Orakpo^†DE Texas Big 12

1 14 New Orleans Saints Malcolm Jenkins CB Ohio State Big Ten

1 15 Houston Texans Brian Cushing^†LB USC Pac-10

1 16 San Diego Chargers Larry English DE Northern Illinois MAC

1 17 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Josh Freeman QB Kansas State Big 12 from New York Jets via Cleveland ^{[R1 trade 2] [R1 trade 3]}

1 18 Denver Broncos Robert Ayers DE Tennessee SEC from Chicago ^{[R1 trade 4]}

1 19 Philadelphia Eagles Jeremy Maclin WR Missouri Big 12 from Tampa Bay via Cleveland^{[R1 trade 5] [R1 trade 6]}

1 20 Detroit Lions Brandon Pettigrew TE Oklahoma State Big 12 from Dallas ^{[R1 trade 7]}

1 21 Cleveland Browns Alex Mack C California Pac-10 from Philadelphia ^{[R1 trade 8]}

1 22 Minnesota Vikings Percy Harvin^†WR Florida SEC

1 23 Baltimore Ravens Michael Oher OT Ole Miss SEC from New England ^{[R1 trade 9]}

1 24 Atlanta Falcons Peria Jerry DT Ole Miss SEC

1 25 Miami Dolphins Vontae Davis CB Illinois Big Ten

1 26 Green Bay Packers Clay Matthews^†LB USC Pac-10 from Baltimore via New England^{[R1 trade 10] [R1 trade 11]}

1 27 Indianapolis Colts Donald Brown RB Connecticut Big East

1 28 Buffalo Bills Eric Wood C Louisville Big East from Carolina via Philadelphia ^{[R1 trade 12] [R1 trade 13]}

1 29 New York Giants Hakeem Nicks WR North Carolina ACC

1 30 Tennessee Titans Kenny Britt WR Rutgers Big East

1 31 Arizona Cardinals Chris Wells RB Ohio State Big Ten

1 32 Pittsburgh Steelers "Evander "Ziggy" Hood DT Missouri Big 12

^† = Pro Bowler

[cincyhokie]

The suckage will continue regardless. MB is still there.

The suckage will lessen if the Bengals nab the best OT in the draft, rehab the OL, and fire Brat. You could replace Palmer but then you are ignoring bigger problems, in my opinion. The OT talent significantly drops off after the top 5 pick. Take a QB in the draft and suck for a long time by putting a rookie in with a s**tty O-line. Teams begin and end with good line play. This team doesn't have it.

Whatever, though, it's your fantasy. Just don't forget about the part where MB pays Palmer for cutting him.

Taking a top 10 oline May not equate to success either,What we need is a Oline coach who can actually coach players up so we don't need a entire Oline made of 1st & 2nd round picks...

Plus they have quite abit invested in OT atm what I wouldn't mind seeing myself is best Tackle in the 2nd round and then Moving whit to RT Bigdre to guard.

Or O-line sucks worse than the QB situation and in my opinion, is by far the weakest link. I'll take a revamped coaching staff too.

[kingwilly]

I think there are two keys to the offense.

1. Emotional status of Carson, meaning his ability to forge ahead despite all the failure, ie is his heart in it.

2. The ability of this coaching staff to coach and manage the personnel that they have, ie getting the most from the players by maximizing what they do well.

Regarding Carson, I don't feel he will flourish here any longer. No coaching changes can replace his heart. I don't see he has any emotional equity left with this team. It is used up. Empty. They could bring in ANY O coordinator and he'd be working with warmed over week-old flank steak trying to make it into filet mignon. Not gonna happen. Pair this with his injury history and propensity to throw from his back foot and you have a guy who, from the business side, is not worth the money he is due and is not the guy to build around any longer.

It was mentioned that he will be snapped up, and yes I agree. He will go somewhere and start, perhaps even Seattle and reunite with Carroll, and he may even enjoy some success in a fresh start where an organization is anything but the Brown Family.

Regarding the coaching staff, this offense has now hit the side of the mountain. Continued penalties (poor coaching), continued lack of running the ball (coaching), continued telegraphed playcalling (coaching). Heck, when TO explains that they make no adjustments, this says a lot. Brat has ONE new play per game. This week, it was the Tackle eligible for a TD. Great.

The offense is stale, predictable, does not work and simply fails. Forcing this offense on a cast of players who cannot execute is perhaps the greatest mistake of all. They do not run plays that take advantage of the ability of the players, the make the players run plays that fit their scheme. This is backwards. Design a scheme to do what they players DO BEST. How many passes did Gresham have yesterday? There ya go.

And now for my most blatantly obvious and well-known point, but make it I must. This team has FAR too muck over lap of ownership into the function of the team. The ownership runs the business, or should have qualified folks do that job. Their job is to make a profit. The job of the coaches and players is to win games. What is missing is the layer of management that separates the two functions and prevents the business from preventing the team from winning, and the team from preventing the owners from making money. In my equation, winning is first, profit is second. Winning begets profiting. Win on the field, make money after. Lose on the field, profits will not come.

Unfortunately, SoP has determined that by fielding a near-winner, he can exploit the business arrangements with the NFL, County and fans and still make a profit by having us consume a sub-standard product on the "hope of potential" of the improvement of that product. One step forward, two steps back, lose on Sunday, money out our pocket and into the Brown family coffers.

The Browns are CLEARLY not qualified to produce a quality offering but enjoy the spoils of the engineered parity and profit sharing in the NFL. Profits first, winning, eh, somewhere in there but not the top priority.

Get a management team to create separation between the ownership family and the functions of the football team and this place could have a chance. Until that happens, welcome to loser-town.

See ya Carson, I wish you well as a Seahawk*, Cardinal, Dolphin, Titan, Raider, Bronco, Viking^ or wherever you go.

* Reunite with Carroll

^ Reunite with Frazier

Edit to add I just read this stat from Gazoo (John Clayton) over at espn.com: Carson Palmer had two more interceptions for touchdowns that increased his career total to 15, the most of any quarterback since 2004.

Yeah, all parties have contributed to the demise of this offense. The constants are Carson, Brat and Marvin.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

Regarding Carson, I don't feel he will flourish here any longer. No coaching changes can replace his heart. I don't see he has any emotional equity left with this team. It is used up. Empty. They could bring in ANY O coordinator and he'd be working with warmed over week-old flank steak trying to make it into filet mignon.

I'm not so sure - bring in coaches who knows what they're doing, get him some O-line help, dump the "vinegar and water" twins, and I think you'd see a new man.

See ya Carson, I wish you well as a Seahawk*, Cardinal, Dolphin, Titan, Raider<>, Bronco, Viking^ or wherever you go.

* Reunite with Carroll

^ Reunite with Frazier

<> Reunite with Hue Jackson

Don't forget Hue!

Edit to add I just read this stat from Gazoo (John Clayton) over at espn.com: Carson Palmer had two more interceptions for touchdowns that increased his career total to 15, the most of any quarterback since 2004.

Yeah, all parties have contributed to the demise of this offense. The constants are Carson, Brat and Marvin.

And Chad.

Incidentally, thanks - I was wondering how to search for that stat. I kind of had a feeling it was pretty bad for him but didn't know how to figure it out. That floating out route kills us every time. Didn't realize he was the worst since 2004 - though, I would wonder how many QBs have been starters since then, and that's probably limited to mostly good QBs, so there's that too.

[COB]

That floating out route kills us every time.

Also killing us: receivers who won't come back for the ball. Chad.