THE CHANGES THREAD...Marvin to return

[combatbengal]

Was just watching NFL network and J Dukes hinted that there will be 10 coaches fired this year and that Marvin is next. He stated that Palmer is going to get Marvin fired by his inconsistent play. I don’t think so. If Marvin gets fired it’s because of Marvin not his QB. Granted Palmer hasn’t played well at all; going 3 and out most of the season, throwing into triple coverage, refuses to run the ball when he has the opportunity, poor decision making, awful clock management, etc. But it’s Marvin’s job to bench him if he’s not performing or find a way to get his player motivated to play. In my opinion, they both need to go. With what we have on paper, this team should be killing other teams!!

I don't see Brown firing Marvin this season! Even if we lose the rest of our games, he'll stick with Marvin!

[volcom69]

I think this team is doomed weather Marvin is the coach or someone else. I can see the days of 6 wins coming again

Man i have never been so negative on my team, but i think this year has really gotten too me. I had so much hope for this season, and they just blew it away.

I dont see Marvin staying, i think he will leave because he wants to. I also feel they will be losing a bunch of players, and i dont see alot of players wanting to play here again. So i guess lets hope the draft goes well for them.

[HoosierCat]

The Bengals don't have much of a history on firing coaches in-season; they've only done it twice: Dave Shula and Tiger Johnson. And both of them had worse records than Lewis does now, 1-7 and 0-5. My guess is that Marvin will finish out the season and thus his current contract, after which the Bengals will examine their options, which may or may not include offering Lewis a new deal.

[Stripes]

Yup. ^

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

My guess is that Marvin will finish out the season and thus his current contract, after which the Bengals will examine their options, which may or may not include offering Lewis a new deal.

At this point, what does it say about the team if they elect to make Marvin an offer?

[Whur CHad At?]

My guess is that Marvin will finish out the season and thus his current contract, after which the Bengals will examine their options, which may or may not include offering Lewis a new deal.

At this point, what does it say about the team if they elect to make Marvin an offer?

As far as I know there is already an offer on the table...?

I think it is a lifetime contract, similar to the one Bratkowski got.

[HoosierCat]

My guess is that Marvin will finish out the season and thus his current contract, after which the Bengals will examine their options, which may or may not include offering Lewis a new deal.

At this point, what does it say about the team if they elect to make Marvin an offer?

It says that they're the Bengals. FWIW, I think the fate of both Marvin and Brat rests upon the front office's opinion of Palmer. If they are ready to go in another direction at QB, then its a perfect time for a change in the coaching staff as well. And with Palmer due $12 million next year I can certainly see that. Just clear it all out and start again. In that case you can probably wave goodbye to a lot of the offensive starters: TO, Chad, Benson, Bobbie, Kelly. Guys like Simpson and Coffman become question marks; do they fit the new OC and HC's system?

The thing is, does anything really change? If Marvin is replaced by yet another low-power head coach who has to kowtow to The Family, and Brat is replaced by yet another passing guru -- and let's face it, Mikey & Co are not going to hire a Cowher or Parcells type and give them free reign, and the new OC will certainly be someone with that "high-scoring offense" background -- then what difference does it really make? It's just Mikey and Brat by any other name, which would still stink as bad.

[jjakq27]

It says that they're the Bengals. FWIW, I think the fate of both Marvin and Brat rests upon the front office's opinion of Palmer.

Agreed.

I have a couple of theories on how it might play out. And some of it comes from what the Brown family wants in their head coach and if Marvin still fits that bill.

First, MB has wanted a guy for the long haul. Someone like Fisher in Tenn or Cowher was in Pittsburgh or his dad was in Cleveland. He has wanted a guy that is good in the community. I think his experiences with Shula and Coslet not being the face of the franchise was a problem. Marvin can be a very charming person and his community fund has been a great benefit for the city. And I believe they want a guy with some cred (Super Bowl ring) and familiarity with the division. He has done fairly well against Pittsburgh and Baltimore since being here. So Marvin has all of those things going for him.

So out of that I still believe that Marvin will be here if he wants to. However, he may not get the things he has been seeking (bubble, more say in personnel and staff) and may be forced to remove multiple coaches. The thing with Brat was largely tied to his familiarity with Chad and TJ since they ran the same offense at Oregon State. TJ is gone and Chad will probably not be back next year so is that really a requirement now? The only downside is that it is the only offense Palmer has known since he's been here. That could be problematic on dumping Brat.

The other issue is Zimmer and was he actually promised the HC job and will he stay beyond this year? Could he be part of the changes in Dallas and would he stay if he doesn't get a HC job.

And from outside of PBS, hiring Parcells wouldn't be the answer either. He and Marvin were hired within a few weeks of each other and during his time in Dallas, Big Tuna's record wasn't much better than Marvin's even with all of Jerry Jones' financial support. So those shortcomings elsewhere only fuel the self-righteousness of the ownership group here that they are still doing things right. No reason to overspend if you don't have too. Besides Tuna would only stay for a short time then bail like he's done everywhere else lately.

Bottom line is they gotta get rid of the bitchers. Marvin needs to re-establish control and Carson needs to be the guy and no one else. Use Peyton Manning as an example. Chad is too big of distraction and some of the other guys are never on the field because they are always hurt. So clean house and get some hungry guys and rebuild both lines. It all starts there.

Remember the team in 2003? That was probably one of my favorite Bengals teams because they never quit and "kept shoveling". I want that kind of team again.

[HoTbOy]

Thought when MLewis was hired we would have a great D, didn't happen til last year, Rex leaves B-More last year and the Jets have been a top D since he got there...MLewis is a good co-ordinator but can't handle the whole team...Let him go along with Brat and let's start over...

[combatbengal]

I don't know! Brown doesn't really care if we win or lose. He's making money no matter what happens and that's all that matters. Seats are still being sold (game after game), concessions are being sold at high prices, and the Bengals suck. TO and Marvin will be offered a contract. Weather they take it or not is a different story. We've been wanting a new OC for years but year after year we put up with the same guy.

[BengalszoneBilly]

Thought when MLewis was hired we would have a great D, didn't happen til last year, Rex leaves B-More last year and the Jets have been a top D since he got there...MLewis is a good co-ordinator but can't handle the whole team...Let him go along with Brat and let's start over...

It's our only hope because this mess is far from working.

[volcom69]

So lets say they get rid of Palmer, but end up keeping this o-line then what. Anybody think they need to get a more mobile QB here, with this o-line i think they need someone who can move. Carson is like a statue back there, and never seems to move up in the pocket or better yet feel the pressure when it comes.

I do agree everything rests on Palmer weather he is back or not. If he is not back then it is time to blow it up, keep the young guys, but get rid of the older guys and guys who always seem to be injured. Bring a new coach in and build it up again, i guess this means we will more years of losing though

[HoosierCat]

It says that they're the Bengals. FWIW, I think the fate of both Marvin and Brat rests upon the front office's opinion of Palmer.

Agreed.

I have a couple of theories on how it might play out. And some of it comes from what the Brown family wants in their head coach and if Marvin still fits that bill.

First, MB has wanted a guy for the long haul. Someone like Fisher in Tenn or Cowher was in Pittsburgh or his dad was in Cleveland. He has wanted a guy that is good in the community. I think his experiences with Shula and Coslet not being the face of the franchise was a problem. Marvin can be a very charming person and his community fund has been a great benefit for the city. And I believe they want a guy with some cred (Super Bowl ring) and familiarity with the division. He has done fairly well against Pittsburgh and Baltimore since being here. So Marvin has all of those things going for him.

So out of that I still believe that Marvin will be here if he wants to. However, he may not get the things he has been seeking (bubble, more say in personnel and staff) and may be forced to remove multiple coaches. The thing with Brat was largely tied to his familiarity with Chad and TJ since they ran the same offense at Oregon State. TJ is gone and Chad will probably not be back next year so is that really a requirement now? The only downside is that it is the only offense Palmer has known since he's been here. That could be problematic on dumping Brat.

The other issue is Zimmer and was he actually promised the HC job and will he stay beyond this year? Could he be part of the changes in Dallas and would he stay if he doesn't get a HC job.

And from outside of PBS, hiring Parcells wouldn't be the answer either. He and Marvin were hired within a few weeks of each other and during his time in Dallas, Big Tuna's record wasn't much better than Marvin's even with all of Jerry Jones' financial support. So those shortcomings elsewhere only fuel the self-righteousness of the ownership group here that they are still doing things right. No reason to overspend if you don't have too. Besides Tuna would only stay for a short time then bail like he's done everywhere else lately.

Bottom line is they gotta get rid of the bitchers. Marvin needs to re-establish control and Carson needs to be the guy and no one else. Use Peyton Manning as an example. Chad is too big of distraction and some of the other guys are never on the field because they are always hurt. So clean house and get some hungry guys and rebuild both lines. It all starts there.

Remember the team in 2003? That was probably one of my favorite Bengals teams because they never quit and "kept shoveling". I want that kind of team again.

A lot of good thoughts here and I agree. The only thing I would emphasize is that "getting rid of the bitchers" remains a front office issue. Letting Chad go won't matter if they just draft another diva wideout to replace him next April (though I would also add that at least today Chad wasn't the problem). I agree with being less tolerant of injuries and rebuilding the lines. Dunlap's play today gives me a bit of hope for the D, and I thought Moobs was coming on before he got hurt but there we go with the injury issue again. Given that they can only do so much in one offseason they are going to have to focus on one side of the ball. If I'm in charge, that's the defense. We need pressure and big plays.

[Horsemen]

The thing is, does anything really change? If Marvin is replaced by yet another low-power head coach who has to kowtow to The Family, and Brat is replaced by yet another passing guru -- and let's face it, Mikey & Co are not going to hire a Cowher or Parcells type and give them free reign, and the new OC will certainly be someone with that "high-scoring offense" background -- then what difference does it really make? It's just Mikey and Brat by any other name, which would still stink as bad.

There it is ladies and gentlemen, the unfortunately brutal truth of the matter. It really truly doesn't matter who we bring in here, Mike Brown is still the Owner/GM, Pumpkin still signs the contracts, Pete still controls the roster, we still only have one scout and money will still not be spent. The broken down ineffective system will remain the same my friends. The problem isn't going anywhere.

That's not to defend Lewis. I don't like Lewis. He is a mediocre Coach. His own doing or stunted by the front office? I don't know. Part of me says that's the case. That as a young head coach he was never given the support needed to grow within the position. The Bill Cowher comparison earlier is fitting for the above. While Brown wanted his own Cowher he absolutely failed to do the things that needed done for Lewis to grow into that, in fact the opposite has happened. As it is now we have no real choice but to move on. Sadly that means another young first time head coach facing the same fate. I'm not trying to be a pessimist here, but it is what it is.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

If they are ready to go in another direction at QB, then its a perfect time for a change in the coaching staff as well.

Strangely enough, I'd be very interested to see what another coaching staff can do with Palmer. His mechanics have become atrocious and he makes sloppy decisions (I know, tell you something you don't know). I'd like to see somebody new come in and kick him in the ass. Either he takes it well and could become a very good QB again, or he's done in this league.

[derekshank]

I don't know. People said Marvin needed to be fired in '08 as well, then he won coach of the year in '09.

Marvin prefers a run first offense, but Brat won't do that unless injuries make it mandatory. And it was the running game that made the defense look so good last year... but because Brat got a bunch of new toys, the running game was thrown out the window.

Get rid of Chad, T.O. and Brat, and I have no problem with leaving Marvin at the top spot. Frankly, I don't think there is any coach out there better suited to deal with Mike Brown and the redemption projects he demands to sign.

[gregstephens]

I'll try to address these issues in some semblance of order.

1. No, we won't fire Lewis mid-season. Why bother? Everyone knows the season is over and SoP doesn't have it in him to go Jerry Jones and name Zim HC at this time. Will Lewis be back next season? Not a chance. Say what you want, but I believe Marvin wants to win. You remember him from 2003-2006, he had a fire in him. He won't stay willingly in this environment. He'll go back to coordinating somewhere and be much happier. For the Bengals however, he has lost the team and he knows it. It doesn't even appear we really have a head coach at this time.

2. TO will come back for another season. He sucks. He plays only when he wants to. However, he will put up good enough numbers to justify, in SoP's mind, bringing him back, especially since he will throw Palmer under the bus for any poor performances he may have. And as we all found out, no one else will offer TO a contract, so one more year in Cincy will look better than nothing. Same reason he went to Buffalo last year.

3. Palmer isn't the quarterback he used to be. Unless you surround him with a team like Pitt or New England, he'll never appear to be a winning quarterback again. Will the Bengals dump him? Not a chance. Too much money and too much prior success, such as it is. We're stuck with him too.

So in sum...any of us with delusions of a Bengal Super Bowl Champion in our life times better wake up. Root for them because they are your team and resign yourself to being equivalent to a Cubs or Lions fan.

[TJJackson]

I don't think Marvin will be fired. Period. Son-Of-A-Genius has demonstrated a reluctance over the years to fire an employee while he still owes them money, regardless of what return he is getting. In SoaG's twisted perception, he is paying for a HC, and getting a HC, whereas with firing him he is paying a HC and getting nothing.

IMHO, the more likely scenario is that Marvin will simply choose not to sign here again. He knows there are and will be better opportunities elsewhere when his contract expires. That said, since it might look bad for him if he doesn't at least appear to be interested in returning as a head coach here, I am sure that the story given to the press and the public will be that he is indeed negotiating a new contract, but the truth of the matter is that this will be a sham.

As I understand it, this is the final year of Marvin's current HC contract here, and so regardless of the public face he puts on it, he's walking away.

[James_Brooks21]

I don't think Marvin will be fired. Period. Son-Of-A-Genius has demonstrated a reluctance over the years to fire an employee while he still owes them money, regardless of what return he is getting. In SoaG's twisted perception, he is paying for a HC, and getting a HC, whereas with firing him he is paying a HC and getting nothing.

IMHO, the more likely scenario is that Marvin will simply choose not to sign here again. He knows there are and will be better opportunities elsewhere when his contract expires. That said, since it might look bad for him if he doesn't at least appear to be interested in returning as a head coach here, I am sure that the story given to the press and the public will be that he is indeed negotiating a new contract, but the truth of the matter is that this will be a sham.

As I understand it, this is the final year of Marvin's current HC contract here, and so regardless of the public face he puts on it, he's walking away.

You make it sound like Marvin is holding all of the cards in his hand. Nobody is beating down the door to hire Marvin as a HC, unless you are talking about the UFL. Marvin game time management has been horrendous at times. Where the hell is better opportunities for him at, he's not getting a headcoach job anytime soon in the NFL. In about 90% of NFL markets he would have been fired already. How many playoff wins does he have in his tenure? He's not even on Jim Fassel level as a head coach. Nobody is worried about Marvin leaving, not a big loss.

[TJJackson]

I think you've mis-taken the phrase "better opportunities".

I don't think it needs to be a head coaching job to be a better opportunity, given the sorry state of this franchise, particularly at the so-called GM spot.

Compensation and title are part of how one compares one opportunity to another, but they aren't the ONLY things, not even close.

[HairOnFire]

No, we won't fire Lewis mid-season. Why bother?

Yup. I've gone from wanting him to be fired immediately after the Tampa Game to reluctantly accepting the fact that there's no longer any incentive to do so.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

I think you've mis-taken the phrase "better opportunities".

Some might contend that Jack Armstrong's mythical tuna boat would be better than coaching the Bengals.

[jjakq27]

Marvin was ranked No. 13 out of 32 coaches for the season in a ranking by the Baltimore Sun. Bill Belichek was ranked No. 1.

/>http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/thetoydepartment/2010/11/were_now_past_the_midwaypoint.html

[HoosierCat]

Marvin was ranked No. 13 out of 32 coaches for the season in a ranking by the Baltimore Sun. Bill Belichek was ranked No. 1.

/>http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/thetoydepartment/2010/11/were_now_past_the_midwaypoint.html

Just to provide the analysis:

13. Marvin Lewis, Bengals -- Losing has been so ingrained with the Bengals, and the ownership is so determined to do things on a shoe-string budget, that Lewis has to be ranked this high just for degree of difficulty. Problem is, he can't seem to sustain any success. It's as if any little setback sends this franchise plummeting back to earth, which makes Lewis a tightrope walker who does everything he can to avoid falling, even while people throw rotted fruit at him. Lewis isn't completely blameless. He's the one who agrees to take so many knuckleheads on his team. But he deserves another opportunity after this.

Only thing I can really argue with there is, "He's the one who agrees to take so many knuckleheads on his team." Really? I guess that whole Mike-brings-back-Chris-Henry, lops-off-Marvin's-balls incident has gone down the memory hole. How much say Marvin has is anyone's guess.

Again, I can't defend Lewis, but if as I believe the fundamental problem lies above his pay grade, then any changes fall into the "rearranging the deck chairs of the Titanic" category.

[gregstephens]

Marvin was ranked No. 13 out of 32 coaches for the season in a ranking by the Baltimore Sun. Bill Belichek was ranked No. 1.

/>http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/thetoydepartment/2010/11/were_now_past_the_midwaypoint.html

Just to provide the analysis:

13. Marvin Lewis, Bengals -- Losing has been so ingrained with the Bengals, and the ownership is so determined to do things on a shoe-string budget, that Lewis has to be ranked this high just for degree of difficulty. Problem is, he can't seem to sustain any success. It's as if any little setback sends this franchise plummeting back to earth, which makes Lewis a tightrope walker who does everything he can to avoid falling, even while people throw rotted fruit at him. Lewis isn't completely blameless. He's the one who agrees to take so many knuckleheads on his team. But he deserves another opportunity after this.

Only thing I can really argue with there is, "He's the one who agrees to take so many knuckleheads on his team." Really? I guess that whole Mike-brings-back-Chris-Henry, lops-off-Marvin's-balls incident has gone down the memory hole. How much say Marvin has is anyone's guess.

Again, I can't defend Lewis, but if as I believe the fundamental problem lies above his pay grade, then any changes fall into the "rearranging the deck chairs of the Titanic" category.

I both agree with you and disagree with you.

Agree:

Marvin has no real say in the fact Bob Bratkowski is even allowed in PBS, much less the sidelines calling offensive 'plays'.

Marvin has little to no say in the Cavalcade of Fruit Loops SoP decides to add to this recipe for disaster called a team.

Disagree:

Clock management still an issue.

The fact the team has in recent years continued to be plagued by so many penalties, particularly false starts and delays of game are indicative of overall poor coaching, for which Lewis has to be the ultimate fall-guy. I know the team doesn't appear to have the same false start issues this season, but I suggest that is because the offensive line no longer cares enough about playing to start a play prematurely.

Otherwise, the post is spot on.