What has happened with our defense?

[chandon]

I am really struggling to understand!

It seemed last year Zimmer came in and shook the defense up to become a top NFL defensive unit.

This year we have the same players, and also upgraded a little...but have lapsed back to the bad-old-bad-old days behaving like a leaky sieve!

What the hell has happened? We have almost a non-existant pass rush and are giving up too many easy points.

Living in the UK I don't get to see the games, so I'm asking my fellow Bengals in your opinion....wtf is going on? How can we move from being respectible to a joke in one off season? How can Mike Zimmer lose the respect of his players to the position of playing this badly? Have they no pride?

I understand that for some unknown and inexplicable reason we've changed from a successful formula of running the ball first and formost to a passing game with shiny new weapons...and may have seen more 3-and-outs leaving the defense on the field for more of the game...but I can't see how that would cause this sort of issue?

Last year our defense gave a platform for the offense to build on. It was successful up the point when teams realised we were run-happy and plugged the box to stop the run...which they did with reasonable success because we didn't have anything left to go to. No passing game with Chad double-covered no real other options. This year we have those options, and despite shooting ourselves in the foot with stupid penalties and dropped catches we are putting numbers on the board again.

But you will never win when the bath is leaking more water than you are pouring in!!!!

So what is going on guys? Have the players just lost the motivation? Is Zimmer coaching somehow differently this year?

[walzav29]

In my opinion Tank Johnson was playing for a contract last year, D. Jones looks like he's slowing down, Odom is off the steroids, Rey Maluluga hasn't done anything, Geathers is horrible. These are the things I noticed. They also don't have a emotional leader on defense. No fire.

[HoosierCat]

They're killing themselves with penalties, too. Through the first six games last season, the D was flagged just six times, and four of those came in one game (Green Bay). This year, they're up to I think 14 penalties for 130+ yards, 13 of which have come in the last 4 games.

[chandon]

In my opinion Tank Johnson was playing for a contract last year, D. Jones looks like he's slowing down, Odom is off the steroids, Rey Maluluga hasn't done anything, Geathers is horrible. These are the things I noticed. They also don't have a emotional leader on defense. No fire.

What I can't understand is why Zimmer can't seem to motivate the whole unit to be more agressive? From what little I've seen and what I've read, they just don't seem to be firing on all cylinders. Yesterday's game seemed to be a reply of the Patriots game, when they just couldn't stop anything in the first half but got something going in the third quarter. I just don't get how they can come out at the beginning of each game so limp! Trying to play catch-up is never an easy thing to do, and puts a lot of pressure on the offense. To give the offense some credit, they've seemed to come back into the game, only for the defense to give it up in the last quarter.

Could there be something else going on between Zimmer ML and MB? Some dis-harmony which is affecting how Zimmer is applying himself? Last year he seemed pretty hard-nosed and when he shouted the defense jumped and overall performed well. This year it seems to be the same problem game-after-game, and whatever Zimmer is trying clearly isn't working.

[chandon]

They're killing themselves with penalties, too. Through the first six games last season, the D was flagged just six times, and four of those came in one game (Green Bay). This year, they're up to I think 14 penalties for 130+ yards, 13 of which have come in the last 4 games.

This is exactly what I mean! I can't see the Zimmer of last year standing for this level of penalties. He would have stomped some heads and got it sorted. Now I agree some of the blame must go onto the players themselves, but undisciplined players and repeated mistakes come back to poor coaching. It is Zimmer's job to get them ready to play and be in the right frame of mind. He's had 2 weeks to get his unit ready to play, but clearly they weren't ready yesterday and it took them half the game to wake-up to what was happening.

[COB]

I miss Rashad Jeanty. Incredibly tough, a leader, played the short yardage plays like a man.

Hebert.

That's two character guys who put team above self, and showed everyone that even if you weren't a starter, you played your best at every opportunity such as special teams.

[TJJackson]

In my opinion Tank Johnson was playing for a contract last year, D. Jones looks like he's slowing down, Odom is off the steroids, Rey Maluluga hasn't done anything, Geathers is horrible. These are the things I noticed. They also don't have a emotional leader on defense. No fire.

Peko has some fire, and it was on display at points in the 3rd quarter, but he needs to show it more consistently

I would love to some of it from Rey - but he needs to fire himself up first, lead by example and all that...

[walzav29]

What amazes me in the 30 seasons I've followed the Bengals. The only defensive player they have had with some fire and talent was Tim Krumrie. I hate to bring up the Steelers, but think of Lambert, Lloyd, Harrison. Those guys are killers. They were fied up yesterday, but the Bengals didn't have 1 guy on defense who could just blow it up.

[kingwilly]

The issue with the D is the lack of development with players they draft.

Only guy that has developed is Peko, and maybe Fanene (though he is always hurt). Hall and Joseph came in at a very high level.

I see no progress from Rivers, Sims, Rey, M Johnson, Geathers, Rucker...

New players hardly see the field, Atkins and Dunlap...

Tank, Crocker, Roy W, Dhani all have clear downsides, be it age, speed or durability.

The shelf life of this D is a real problem. Last year and this year are about it, before the quality of depth is exposed by age and effectiveness. Hall an/or Joseph will fetch top dollar at teams like Dallas, Washington, NYJ, Miami, AZ, OAK, SF and others. They'd be nuts not to take the cash.

This year will have been "it". And "it" is not happening.

[Stripes]

The entire linebacking corps has looked a bit slow to me. Time and time again I've seen the defensive line win at the point of attack, only to see the opposing back gash through a narrow seam inches ahead of whichever linebacker happened to be closest in pursuit. That's just the run defense though. Against the pass the problem definitely lies in the pass rush, probably caused most by Odom's disappearance.

[jjakq27]

What amazes me in the 30 seasons I've followed the Bengals. The only defensive player they have had with some fire and talent was Tim Krumrie. I hate to bring up the Steelers, but think of Lambert, Lloyd, Harrison. Those guys are killers. They were fied up yesterday, but the Bengals didn't have 1 guy on defense who could just blow it up.

I would have to throw David Fulcher into that discussion.

In my opinion Tank Johnson was playing for a contract last year, D. Jones looks like he's slowing down, Odom is off the steroids, Rey Maluluga hasn't done anything, Geathers is horrible. These are the things I noticed. They also don't have a emotional leader on defense. No fire.

Their high defensive picks (Rivers and Rey in particular), haven't been the difference makers they expected. Joseph and Hall have been very good but not consistently great and are injury prone. MJohnson shows potential but the move to LB in camp was probably a waste of time. Sims also shows glimpses of greatness but is not yet a force. Frostee is finally getting some PT after a couple of years in the system and Marvin White from 2007 is no longer on the team. Peko and Fanene are a couple of the team leaders but were lower round picks.

As for this year's draft, Dunlap (2nd round) can't even get active while Atkins (4th round) has played a lot more.

And the bulk of the veteran guys were top picks of other clubs (Tank, Dhani, Roy, PacMan). And from the Way Back Machine, the demise of David Pollack and Odell were unfortunate and probably affected this unit by having to bring in other guys and re-pick more linebackers (Rivers and Rey) just a few years later.

Something has obviously changed and I don't know what it is. I would hate to think that there is a rift on the team that simmered over from last season because of the offenses ineffectiveness at the end of the year. I gotta wonder about Zimmer's overall enthusiasm as he is still probably dealing with the passing of his wife which was about a year ago.

[membengal]

6 sacks in 6 games seems less than ideal. Not sure where Jeanty and Hebert help with that, COB...

[volcom69]

Right now the main problem with this team is they are not playing physical at all. They are getting pushed around and knocked down!

They are out of position on almost every play.

Making stupid penalties to hurt them on 3rd down.

Young players not getting better from year to year. In fact i see nothing from MJ, Rey and players like that.

These are the same players as last year, im just wondering if these guys are trying to do to much, to be as good or if not better then last year? Maybe they are thinking to much, instead of just flying to ball and making tackles. Or being able to push the linemen back to get sacks. They just need to go out and play, and play physical and smart. Maybe they are making it to hard on themselves, and not having fun?????

[HoosierCat]

Reedy compares the elite D we had in the the first 12 games of 2009 with what we've seen in the 11 games since here:

/>http://cincinnati.com/blogs/bengals/2010/10/25/the-ugly-numbers-on-defense/

Two things jump out at me:

1. Despite the big drop-off in sacks, they are actually holding their own versus the pass.

2. The run defense is terrible. They are allowing 130+ yards a game average on the ground over the last 11 games (versus about 80 in the prior 12 games).

[COB]

6 sacks in 6 games seems less than ideal. Not sure where Jeanty and Hebert help with that, COB...

True that Odom got hurt and de-juiced, that hurt a lot.

Jeanty and Hebert brought a toughness that is missing right now. In my opinion a lot of the game at the NFL level is mental. Teams that play with a genuine, determined toughness can stop the run. That is exactly what Jeanty brought to this team, run stopping toughness on short yardage. He lead.

Hebert did the same on special teams. I think he might have even been special teams captain.

Right now it looks to me like the D and special teams lack physical toughness. Which is what we lost when Jeanty got hurt (I think he's still totally out of football) and we cut Hebert.

And even though I know neither guy was a starter on the defense, some hard-nosed vets can set the tone for a football team.

So even though I know they wouldn't be getting the sacks, they'd be influencing the play of the guys who should be getting sacks.

This sort of team psychology is nothing new to football or the NFL. Though it would be a revelation to our owner, which is why the face of our franchise is an attention-whoring narcissist that most NFL coaches wouldn't even allow on their team.

[Chucktkd]

This D needs Odell back!!

[TJJackson]

T H U R M A N N A T I O N

[walzav29]

This D needs Odell back!!

We need that swagger back. He was a missile, and instinctive. He was a true playmaker on defense, and they just don't have that. We need a DE (Kampman!!!!!! would have been nice), but if a killer MLB is available when the Bengals pick at #5. They should take him.

[volcom69]

This D needs Odell back!!

We need that swagger back. He was a missile, and instinctive. He was a true playmaker on defense, and they just don't have that. We need a DE (Kampman!!!!!! would have been nice), but if a killer MLB is available when the Bengals pick at #5. They should take him.

Yep no doubt this team is missing that playmaker on the front 7. When Odell was here he flew to the ball whether it was an int, or for the tackle. I miss that, and so far i have not seen that from Rey, or MJ.

I think its time to start making changes there, i would love to see Rey in the middle and Brandon Johnson starting somewhere on the LB corp.

[volcom69]

Alright so yesterday showed that whatever Zim is doing is not working. Right now his defense is so vanilla and so soft. Im not seeing much blitzing, or stunts, or saftey and CB blitz.

I think Zim needs to look at tape from last year to see what he was doing different. I know there are some hurt guys out there, but if you going to suck then at least suck by playing aggresive. Show the QB your not going to let him stand back there. Right now the defense is playing like a bunch of pu**ies

I watched some highlights of last seasons defense, and Zim was so aggresive, blitzing like crazy. I saw him running stunts where the LB would go one way and the DE would cross him for the sack. I saw him bringing blitzes from all over the place. I dont get what happend, why did Zim go so soft. Right now the defense is no good, at least if your not going to be good then at least play aggresive. Right now Zim is reminding me of Chucky, we are playing just hoping the team dosnt score. The CBs are playing so far off recievers, players are not playing phyical at all. Watch highlights from last years defense on youtube, and look at the way they played. I miss that

[jjakq27]

I wonder if he's been Marvin-ized? Marvin was always big on generating pressure with a four man front only. From what I recall the Ravens never blitzed a whole lot. I think that was one of the philosophical issues between his first DC (Les Frazier) and Marvin. I'm guessing that there may have been a "Tweaking" of the scheme this off-season but it is only speculation.

If you can't generate any kind of pass rush, blitzing leaves you vulnerable. I get the feeling they are just hunkering down and hoping teams won't go 15 plays like the Dolphins did. Having an offense that is capable of sustaining drives and keeping the D off the field is another hidden necessity that isn't helping either.

[volcom69]

I wonder if he's been Marvin-ized? Marvin was always big on generating pressure with a four man front only. From what I recall the Ravens never blitzed a whole lot. I think that was one of the philosophical issues between his first DC (Les Frazier) and Marvin. I'm guessing that there may have been a "Tweaking" of the scheme this off-season but it is only speculation.

If you can't generate any kind of pass rush, blitzing leaves you vulnerable. I get the feeling they are just hunkering down and hoping teams won't go 15 plays like the Dolphins did. Having an offense that is capable of sustaining drives and keeping the D off the field is another hidden necessity that isn't helping either.

But why change what has worked?????

I agree that a good offense helps a defense, but once again why did the Bengals change who they were?? This is not the same offense as last year. I just dont understand why the coaches on this team always feel the need to change what has worked for this team. They changed the o-line this year to try to help them to pass block better, now they can hardly run block. Whatever happened to using the extra tackle, that worked awsome last year?? Bengals need to come out and own the line of scrimmage, and run the freakin ball. Do what actully won you games last year, because so far whatever they are trying to do is not winning!!!!

[BengalPimp]

T H U R M A N N A T I O N

aka JungleD...or were you talking about Odel ? on second thought...does anyone really care?

[HoTbOy]

Also the Bengals were playing for CHenry and VZimmer, they have no extra motivation this year, it seems as if the success of being #4 in D last year has gone to there heads and that they think that all they need to do is step on the field...

[chandon]

I wonder if he's been Marvin-ized? Marvin was always big on generating pressure with a four man front only. From what I recall the Ravens never blitzed a whole lot. I think that was one of the philosophical issues between his first DC (Les Frazier) and Marvin. I'm guessing that there may have been a "Tweaking" of the scheme this off-season but it is only speculation.

If you can't generate any kind of pass rush, blitzing leaves you vulnerable. I get the feeling they are just hunkering down and hoping teams won't go 15 plays like the Dolphins did. Having an offense that is capable of sustaining drives and keeping the D off the field is another hidden necessity that isn't helping either.

But why change what has worked?????

I agree that a good offense helps a defense, but once again why did the Bengals change who they were?? This is not the same offense as last year. I just dont understand why the coaches on this team always feel the need to change what has worked for this team. They changed the o-line this year to try to help them to pass block better, now they can hardly run block. Whatever happened to using the extra tackle, that worked awsome last year?? Bengals need to come out and own the line of scrimmage, and run the freakin ball. Do what actully won you games last year, because so far whatever they are trying to do is not winning!!!!

I agree Vol. We have taken a man off the line on offense for a TE because we are back to a passing-first offense. I think the reason for this is Carson. He is the Franchise Quarterback and beloved of Mikey, and let's face it, any quarterback doesn't like handing-off the ball....they want to throw it!! I think Carson was quietly vocal about this and campaigned for more weapons, siting the offense's lack of punch last year when they had to throw the ball. This has led to a pass-first offensive strategy which wouldn't be too bad...if it was working!! But it isn't. Last Sunday's game, by all accounts, just shows how the offense's lack of ability to sustain drives means the defense is constantly on the field. This wears them down, and may be the reason we seem to lose a lot at the end of games...you can only concentrate and perform at a high level for so long. Mentally, they are just worn down. How many 3-and-outs in a row? How many 3rd downs incomplete? Our time-of-possession has dropped remarkably, leading to the defense having to stay on the field for much longer.

What I don't really understand, is that Carson and everyone must like the feeling of winning games! Even Mikey-boy must realize that winning games equals more bums on seats! As the current strategy of pass-pass-pass isn't working, why not switch back to running the ball? Take a TE out and put another body on the line and use Ced as we did last year. The big difference to last year is that when teams stack the box against the run, we now have big weapons to pass to. The run will open up the pass, and we will get points. Is this not obvious to somebody on the coaching staff?

As far as the defense goes, they will be mentally fitter and more alert. If you then dial in some of the Zimmer Hammer, and get them to play hard and physical, I believe a successful formula will grow. But perhaps this is all pie-in-the-sky whilst Brat is around.