Can we all agree, that Jonathan Joseph is a bust?

[GregCook]

I've been saying it for awhile, JJ is a huge bust. Anybody disagree?

Add him to Number 1 failures for this team in the Marvin Lewis era? I don't add him just because he embarrassed himself on one play yesterday and became the butt of jokes for sports shows. Its the whole season plus his injury history. Missing tackles isn't new to JJ. Its been a theme.

Chris Perry

David Pollack

JJ

[gregstephens]

I've been saying it for awhile, JJ is a huge bust. Anybody disagree?

Add him to Number 1 failures for this team in the Marvin Lewis era? I don't add him just because he embarrassed himself on one play yesterday and became the butt of jokes for sports shows. Its the whole season plus his injury history. Missing tackles isn't new to JJ. Its been a theme.

Chris Perry

David Pollack

JJ

'Missing tackles' in the traditional sense is one thing, because that usually involves effort, albeit failed. However, that thing with Kevin Walter yesterday was just inexcusable. His interview later that he thought he was down demonstrates he is not an NFL caliber player. An NFL caliber defensive back doesn't have time to think someone's down. They instinctively make sure the person's down.

[HoTbOy]

At this point I would have to agree, He plays too far off and misses to many tackles. besides the fact that his hands are made of iron and he can't catch an interception...

[CarsonDaMan]

I don't think i'd call him a bust, but he does need to show improvement.

To me he's the perfect example on why this team is the way it is. He has all the physical talent in the world and at times he makes some great plays. On the other hand he seems to lack the mental ability and work ethic in general to become a great player. As do many others on the Bungle roster.

Thats what happens when teams pay no attention to the characters of individuals when they draft them. They get stuck with a bunch of mouth breathers who will tease with their talent but never take the next steps to become great.

[HoosierCat]

The fact Joseph seems continually nicked is annoying, I'll grant. And he certainly didn't play well yesterday. But we saw his rookie season that he had plenty of talent and hustle. Since then...well, he seems to have gone the "undevelopment" route of so many other promising Bengals draft picks. Y'know, where exciting young player X seems to get worse, not better, with time? I chalk that up to a combination of poor coaching and the general "Bungalization" aura that surrounds the organization.

Take JJ out of Cincy and put him in Baltimore and he'd be in the Pro Bowl by next year.

That's the real trouble with the Bengals' strategy of "building through the draft": it isn't that they can't draft, it's that they have no clue how to build.

[walzav29]

I think it's hard to tell. The front 4 suck, so the QB's have all day. If they ever got NFL players on the defensive line, it could make a difference. In other words, we'll never know.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

For a late round 1st draft pick - no. Leon Hall is more of a bust than JJ is at this point, IMO. JJ is soft though and doesn't tackle or hit or play big WR's as well as Hall. Hall just gets beat a lot downfield and underneath.

That he and others do not benefit from a pass rush, a single good cover safety, and an inept organization with bad coaches is not in anyone's favor. It's hard, honestly, to judge a lot of these guys, and how successful they may or may not be a on a real NFL team, ecspecially on defense.

[COB]

I don't think he's a bust. Given enough time, any NFL receiver can get open on any NFL defensive back. At least I assume that's the hypothesis the Bengals defense has been testing this year.

[COB]

Take JJ out of Cincy and put him in Baltimore and he'd be in the Pro Bowl by next year.

How true. In support of that I'll cite one coach who is currently being abused on this board, but who, when coaching in Baltimore, was a damn good coach.

Shaun Rogers' agent deserves a big bonus. You come to the Bengals, you get Bengalized.

[Kazkal]

Disagree give our CB's the passrush of the newyork Giants,Texans,Ravens or any high sacking team He'll not even of that level just better pass rush then we've had in past 8 years.

[gregstephens]

Take JJ out of Cincy and put him in Baltimore and he'd be in the Pro Bowl by next year.

How true. In support of that I'll cite one coach who is currently being abused on this board, but who, when coaching in Baltimore, was a damn good coach.

Shaun Rogers' agent deserves a big bonus. You come to the Bengals, you get Bengalized.

Was he really that good of a coach in Baltimore, or did he happen to have the benefit of having several potential HOF defensive players under his watch? The whole 'Defensive Guru' thing isn't panning out real well here in Cincy.

[volcom69]

LOL yes i agree Greg i think its time for him to step down to the high school def cordinator position and see if he can teach the kids there, because he aint teachin crap here.

[Kazkal]

Take JJ out of Cincy and put him in Baltimore and he'd be in the Pro Bowl by next year.

How true. In support of that I'll cite one coach who is currently being abused on this board, but who, when coaching in Baltimore, was a damn good coach.

Shaun Rogers' agent deserves a big bonus. You come to the Bengals, you get Bengalized.

Was he really that good of a coach in Baltimore, or did he happen to have the benefit of having several potential HOF defensive players under his watch? The whole 'Defensive Guru' thing isn't panning out real well here in Cincy.

Ya but wasn't the only superbowl defense under lewis? studs or not he got done what the other "defensive guru's " like nolan didn't...

[gregstephens]

Take JJ out of Cincy and put him in Baltimore and he'd be in the Pro Bowl by next year.

How true. In support of that I'll cite one coach who is currently being abused on this board, but who, when coaching in Baltimore, was a damn good coach.

Shaun Rogers' agent deserves a big bonus. You come to the Bengals, you get Bengalized.

Was he really that good of a coach in Baltimore, or did he happen to have the benefit of having several potential HOF defensive players under his watch? The whole 'Defensive Guru' thing isn't panning out real well here in Cincy.

Ya but wasn't the only superbowl defense under lewis? studs or not he got done what the other "defensive guru's " like nolan didn't...

Yeah, but if you want to hook that Super Bowl to his credit, that only magnifies the complete and utter failure he's been here. Especially if you compare the offenses between the Super Bowl Ravens and the 2005 Bengals. The Bengals had three times the offense of Kyle Boller and that mess. If Lewis was the defensive guru that is responsible for the Ravens' success, he needs to shoulder the fact the 2005 Bengals couldn't live up to its potential.

[GregCook]

As the team became increasingly Marvin's guys, its become worse. They have been known as soft forever. Quotes from the Texans said they could see quit in the Bengals in the 3rd qtr. This is the team Marvin built. What he did in Baltimore got him the Bengals HC, in any sane organization he would be fired for what he did here. Guys like JJ who quit on plays or play dumb and are poorly coached, well he's not alone is he? He has lots of low level draft picks as company.

[COB]

As the team became increasingly Marvin's guys, its become worse.

Marvin's guys? Do you honestly believe that Marvin would have Chad on this team? Chris Henry? Do you think he'd have kept Deltha until this year? I doubt Rudy would have been around for the '07 season if Marvin were calling the personnel shots.

This isn't Marvin's team. It's Mike Brown's team, and Marvin has thrown his hands in the air and surrendered.

There is nothing wrong with the guys Marvin wants on this team. The problem is the leadership provided by Mike's guys. In Baltimore Marvin had Stabby as a team leader. New guys came in and got the message: Play hard and leave your selfish bulls**t at the door.

Here, thanks to Mike's "favorite player" (to quote Marvin), new guys come in and get the message right away: It's all about you, do whatever you want to further your own interests, whatever they may be, and don't worry about the team because there will never be any reprisals from our coaches because the owner decides who is on this team.

I disagree with folks blaming Marvin. As if he's a bad coach, and all we have to do is hire a good coach and this whole thing will turn around. Wrong. As long as Mike and family usurp the authority of the head coach we'll be what we've been since Paul died. Losers.

[GregCook]

As the team became increasingly Marvin's guys, its become worse.

Marvin's guys? Do you honestly believe that Marvin would have Chad on this team? Chris Henry? Do you think he'd have kept Deltha until this year? I doubt Rudy would have been around for the '07 season if Marvin were calling the personnel shots.

This isn't Marvin's team. It's Mike Brown's team, and Marvin has thrown his hands in the air and surrendered.

There is nothing wrong with the guys Marvin wants on this team. The problem is the leadership provided by Mike's guys. In Baltimore Marvin had Stabby as a team leader. New guys came in and got. the message: Play hard and leave your selfish bulls**t at the door.

Here, thanks to Mike's "favorite player" (to quote Marvin), new guys come in and get the message right away: It's all about you, do whatever you want to further your own interests, whatever they may be, and don't worry about the team because there will never be any reprisals from our coaches because the owner decides who is on this team.

I disagree with folks blaming Marvin. As if he's a bad coach, and all we have to do is hire a good coach and this whole thing will turn around. Wrong. As long as Mike and family usurp the authority of the head coach we'll be what we've been since Paul died. Losers.

Last I looked Marvin did draft most of team. Unlike in 2005 when he hadn't redone the roster, there are now about 5 guys not drafted by Marvin. Of course this is a mismanaged team with Marvin a part of what's wrong. Changing him won't return the Bengals to their Glory Years because there never were Glory Years. But its a good half step forward.

[HoosierCat]

As the team became increasingly Marvin's guys, its become worse.

Marvin's guys? Do you honestly believe that Marvin would have Chad on this team? Chris Henry? Do you think he'd have kept Deltha until this year? I doubt Rudy would have been around for the '07 season if Marvin were calling the personnel shots.

This isn't Marvin's team. It's Mike Brown's team, and Marvin has thrown his hands in the air and surrendered.

There is nothing wrong with the guys Marvin wants on this team. The problem is the leadership provided by Mike's guys. In Baltimore Marvin had Stabby as a team leader. New guys came in and got the message: Play hard and leave your selfish bulls**t at the door.

Here, thanks to Mike's "favorite player" (to quote Marvin), new guys come in and get the message right away: It's all about you, do whatever you want to further your own interests, whatever they may be, and don't worry about the team because there will never be any reprisals from our coaches because the owner decides who is on this team.

I disagree with folks blaming Marvin. As if he's a bad coach, and all we have to do is hire a good coach and this whole thing will turn around. Wrong. As long as Mike and family usurp the authority of the head coach we'll be what we've been since Paul died. Losers.

PREACH ON BROTHER COB!!!!

I endorse the above without reservation.

[Kazkal]

Yeah, but if you want to hook that Super Bowl to his credit, that only magnifies the complete and utter failure he's been here. Especially if you compare the offenses

Failure? He was a godsend with his one winning season that we've had in what 18 years?Yes our offense was leaps and bounds better but is it Marvins fault Paul Alexander can't work with anything that's not a 1st day pick? Is it his fault that they let steinbach walk for willie ,Is it his fault bobs play calling has gotten worse each year since 2005?Then okay then we'll blame him for the defense because it's his fault our medical and scouting staff are horrible it's not like the ravens defense was made up of day 2 picks.

Day one picks on Ravens Defense

Rod Woodson 1st

Chris McAlister 1st

Duane Starks 1st

Ray Lewis 1st <<Best MLB of his time>>

Jamie Sharper 2nd

Peter Boulware 1st

Corey Harris 3rd

Sam Adams 1st

8! players out of 11 were taken in the first 3 rounds 6 of them being 1st round picks...

I don't know if Marvin is a good or bad coach but the Ravens Defense started being the power house it is today under him and I'm not gonna fault him for when he has done in cinci because any coach would fail here.I just hope we let him walk after this season so he can try and redeem himself after wasting 6 years of his life here.

[Kazkal]

Thank you CentralOhioBenga you said what I wanted to but much more clearer >_<

Last I looked Marvin did draft most of team. Unlike in 2005 when he hadn't redone the roster, there are now about 5 guys not drafted by Marvin.

And how do we know which ones are marvins guys that he said hey bring me in this guy? vs how many Mike ignored him and took another?

Is it Marvins fault David Pollack Broke his neck? that Odell couldn't keep clean? that Jjoe has been dinged ? Brooks had season ending groin injurys?

Is it marvins fault Mikey will only bring in John Thortons and other players far past their prime? Sam Adams was our best freaking FA signing ever till Odom now whats that saying for the team?

If we had a front office who had a freaking clue and a owner who would be willing to bring in proper scouts,medical & coaches but I've failed to see this and IMO this is the problem not marvin.

[redsbengalsbucks]

For a late round 1st draft pick - no. Leon Hall is more of a bust than JJ is at this point, IMO. JJ is soft though and doesn't tackle or hit or play big WR's as well as Hall. Hall just gets beat a lot downfield and underneath.

That he and others do not benefit from a pass rush, a single good cover safety, and an inept organization with bad coaches is not in anyone's favor. It's hard, honestly, to judge a lot of these guys, and how successful they may or may not be a on a real NFL team, ecspecially on defense.

Hall is playing exactly as he did in College, he plays well against poor competitions and get beat bad against the better athletes.

[GregCook]

Thank you CentralOhioBenga you said what I wanted to but much more clearer >_<

Last I looked Marvin did draft most of team. Unlike in 2005 when he hadn't redone the roster, there are now about 5 guys not drafted by Marvin.

And how do we know which ones are marvins guys that he said hey bring me in this guy? vs how many Mike ignored him and took another?

Is it Marvins fault David Pollack Broke his neck? that Odell couldn't keep clean? that Jjoe has been dinged ? Brooks had season ending groin injurys?

Is it marvins fault Mikey will only bring in John Thortons and other players far past their prime? Sam Adams was our best freaking FA signing ever till Odom now whats that saying for the team?

If we had a front office who had a freaking clue and a owner who would be willing to bring in proper scouts,medical & coaches but I've failed to see this and IMO this is the problem not marvin.

Why all the excuses for Marvin Lewis? He's the head coach, he is responsible for just about everything that goes into the draft, training time, practice time and game time. Its been that way for as long as there has been an NFL.

I think Marvin is a good coach, just not here anymore. I think he'll be successful somewhere else. True he's had some bad luck medically, but so do all NFL teams.

You go back and look at his drafts since 2003 and hardly any first day picks are playing. Most because they weren't that good to begin with. Those picks are Marvin's, the coaching staff and of course Mike Brown.

How many games do we hear Marvin complain about players not plugging their gaps or trying to do too much or being lazy, ie "not finishing"? Just about every game since 2 years ago. Thats coaching.

Look at the NYG this year playing with all their injuries and doing well. The Bengals have the same number of injuries and fold like a pup tent. Why? As we all know lots of reasons from Mike Brown down to bad luck to a culture of failure. But Marvin Lewis is in there too and he needs to go.

[TJJackson]

to the question asked: no, I don't agree

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

Why all the excuses for Marvin Lewis? He's the head coach, he is responsible for just about everything that goes into the draft....

And you would know that how? The presumption is that Mikey has usually involved himself there pretty heavily.

[gregstephens]

Yeah, but if you want to hook that Super Bowl to his credit, that only magnifies the complete and utter failure he's been here. Especially if you compare the offenses

He was a godsend with his one winning season that we've had in what 18 years?

This is the saddest part of your statement, all of which was well said, by the way. We are conditioned as Bengals' fans to be ecstatic over ONE winning season and ONE trip to the playoffs in close to two decades. We really are lemurs.