Patriots Videotaping "cheating" incident

[HoosierCat]

Heh heh. New Pats logo, courtesy CHFF...

That's pretty good.

[membengal]

Paul Zimmerman at si.com bringing massive heat on this issue, and some of it is Bengals-related:

" Last year the Lions played the Patriots in Foxboro. At one point their coach, Rod Marinelli, phoned up to the press box, "There's a camera pointed right at our defensive coach making his calls. Is that allowed?" A Lions' employee called the NFL booth. No, it certainly was not. So the videotaper was stopped. Then after a while he began again. The same process was repeated and he was asked to stop again. Now that's dedication.

"You don't really know for sure," Marinelli said. "I mean you don't know whether he might be doing something for NFL Films or a coaches' show or whatever."

"At one point we had a good drive going against the Patriots," said one Lion who doesn't want his name involved in this mess, but was willing to talk about it. "Mike Martz really had 'em going. They were getting fouled up, lining up wrong, we were moving the ball. Then boom, the headset from the sidelines to the coaches' booth goes out.

"Next possession we were moving the ball again and the same thing happened. You know it only takes two or three plays to mess up a drive."

Matt Millen, the Lions' GM, was talking to Bengals' coach Marvin Lewis at the league meetings. He started telling him the story. "Yeah, I know," Lewis said. "Headset went out. It happened to me in Foxboro, too."

Well.

Well.

And,

Well.

[HoosierCat]

Yeah, I've seen comments by other teams on the funky headsets at Pats home games. It appears to be well known that Fauxboro is a hotbed of chicanery, according to former fins coach Dave Wannstedt:

Former Dolphins head coach Dave Wannstedt, told Fox Sports Radio he's not surprised that his old rival the Patriots have been caught cheating: "It didn't surprise me, I'll be very honest with you. We had a couple incidents when I was the head coach with the Dolphins, that later on guys told us stories about things happening in the locker room at their facility, and mickey mouse stuff that I couldn't believe. I said surely not and then you hear this. The league filed something about this a year ago very similiar. I think, where there is smoke, there is fire, I really believe that."

[membengal]

Sorry, forgot the link to the Zimmerman piece:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writ...ex.html?eref=T1

Del Rio complained of the radio jamming thing during their playoff game in Foxboro in 2005. Interesting to see Cincy had the same issues, to say the least...

[HoosierCat]

Sorry, forgot the link to the Zimmerman piece:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writ...ex.html?eref=T1

Del Rio complained of the radio jamming thing during their playoff game in Foxboro in 2005. Interesting to see Cincy had the same issues, to say the least...

Every time I look, something else like this seems to have dripped out, and with every example of this kind of mickey mouse stuff (to use Wannstedt's term) a theory floated by Florio over at PFT a couple days ago gains a little more traction in my mind.

That's the idea that the whole things was a set-up, a league-backed sting operation.

Teams are, I think, willing to tolerate a certain amount of spy-versus-spy stuff. Heck, a lot of them do it, too. And the ones who don't know how to counter it. But I'm starting to believe that the Pats were getting too blatent and aggressive about it. Complaints started to bubble up in league meetings. The Pats kept on doing it. So this year the league front office set em up. They sent a memo specifically warning against videotaping, which they knew the Pats did, waited for them to ignore it, which they knew they would, and bam!

Now the league can use this as a wedge to get in and stop all the mickey mouse stuff in Fauxboro.

[HairOnFire]

Del Rio complained of the radio jamming thing during their playoff game in Foxboro in 2005. Interesting to see Cincy had the same issues, to say the least...

This is why I keep bringing up the matter of the radio equipment and evidence that the Patriots were using banned equipment and multiple radio frequencies. It's not only potentially more damning than the videotaping, but it shows a pattern of cheating that goes far beyong the "everybody does it" defense. And in regards to the media, when they finally put two and two together, as they seem to be doing, the story will grow legs.

[jjakq27]

Now the league can use this as a wedge to get in and stop all the mickey mouse stuff in Fauxboro.

Man if all of this stuff turns out to be true, they ought to consider stripping them of their Super Bowl titles.

I am sure that Peyton Manning is wondering how he could have played so badly in all of those playoff games in Foxboro. Coincidence? Maybe but probably not?

[The PatternMaster]

Now the league can use this as a wedge to get in and stop all the mickey mouse stuff in Fauxboro.

Man if all of this stuff turns out to be true, they ought to consider stripping them of their Super Bowl titles.

I am sure that Peyton Manning is wondering how he could have played so badly in all of those playoff games in Foxboro. Coincidence? Maybe but probably not?

It's because the Pats had their number, right?

[COB]

Hair's right, last season was a down one for the Pats. I read that before their playoff loss, the Colts had all the cameras removed from the Pats sideline. Maybe that had something to do with the Patriots' loss. Now that I read it all, the radio frequency jamming of opponents headsets and the video sign stealing, it starts to make sense. The Pats uncanny ability to always have guys in the right place at the right time on every play - sign stealing would certainly lead to that. It sickens me.

[The PatternMaster]

See what happens when your a prick to the media Mr. Bill Belicheck, they build you up to bring you down.

[membengal]

Del Rio complained of the radio jamming thing during their playoff game in Foxboro in 2005. Interesting to see Cincy had the same issues, to say the least...

This is why I keep bringing up the matter of the radio equipment and evidence that the Patriots were using banned equipment and multiple radio frequencies. It's not only potentially more damning than the videotaping, but it shows a pattern of cheating that goes far beyong the "everybody does it" defense. And in regards to the media, when they finally put two and two together, as they seem to be doing, the story will grow legs.

Let's add something else to the mix here:

Wasn't Cincy's last time in Foxboro the game in 2004 when CP was hurt with the low tackle to his knee by Seymour in the 3rd quarter? The one that put him out for the remainder of that season?

They haven't been to Foxboro since, right?

At any rate, if that was the last time, that game in 2004, and ML has "had that issue" too with respect to radio failure, then one can begin to wonder about that game, and Carson's injury. Was the block missed because a call to the field was jammed and the radio not working? Was a blocking assignment not missed and instead a very successful rush by the Patriots occurred because they called the right defense for whatever the Bengals were running on that play based on the video-taping cheating stuff? Who knows? Probably not, but, again, who knows now?

Again, it is all of a sudden worth a second look back, and the questions are not so outlandish.

[Kazkal]

Now the league can use this as a wedge to get in and stop all the mickey mouse stuff in Fauxboro.

Man if all of this stuff turns out to be true, they ought to consider stripping them of their Super Bowl titles.

I am sure that Peyton Manning is wondering how he could have played so badly in all of those playoff games in Foxboro. Coincidence? Maybe but probably not?

No way that happens minus them stripping the steelers for the 70's

[kingwilly]

I was not going to wade into this but now I feel I must.

I see there being two primary issues in this scandal.

The first is the issue with the "letter of the rule", and the other is the "spirit of the rule".

THe "letter of the rule" issue is pretty simple. Clearly, if the NFL has a rule that states "no video-taping of coaching personnel during a game" and the Pats did that and were caught, then they should go through the disciplinary process and if found guilty, be subject to an approporiate levy that would be punitive enough to make them think twice about breaking the rule again. It wold also need to serve as deterrent in the league to the other team who may be engaged in such behavior but have not been caught.

The "spirit of the rule" is where things get muddy. Apart from the "letter", there exists a nebulous gray area that is very subjective and open to personal ethics and beliefs. If the Pats scheme involved a guy with binoculars mid-way up the lower level on the 50, or some other method that removed a specific portion of the "letter" of the rule, then they may not technically be breaking the rule but could still be gaining a competitive edge by similar actions. If the Pats had been warned, then changed their technique to go around the "letter" then the owness is on the NFL to incorporate a more ambiguous set of language where they can subjectively apply the "spirit" of the rule to a wider array of actions that could be deemed "breaking the rule".

I find it fascinating that the NFL, in all its glorious wisdom, has chosen now to engage in this public scandal when sports are already so wrought with druggies, criminals, cheaters, etc. There is quite a bit of good that the NFL does but a story like this knocks down 10 honorable actions. Did Goodell think it makes for good business to showcase this scandal? Perhaps, as a way to send a message to teams that he is the "Boss" and noone is immune to the "Boss's" strong hand. Does this equate with him putting a stamp on the NFL as his dominion? Smacking around some players is one thing, cracking a whole franchise is another.

I feel it is Goodell's duty to maintain the integrity of the game, whatever that is, but getting this dirty laundry out in the open just serves to diminish the overall status of the NFL as the premier sports organization in the world. Had this been handled away from the press, in a way that can stymie these kinds of covert activities, then he should have pursued it first. Instead we see the "Boss" proceeding forward, in a way that could further damage his dominion.

Goodell's end-game should be to get the "letter of the rule" followed and the "spirit of the rule" considered when a player or team is faced with a decision. It is then incumbent on the one making a decision to look at their own integrity and ethics when in that situation. Should it be that a bad decision is made, then it is ultimately Goodell who must go by the same considerations when handling a disciplinary case. Going by his short but busy term so far, I think he has followed the "letter of the rule" but not the "spirit of the rule".

[BengalByTheBay]

I find it fascinating that the NFL, in all its glorious wisdom, has chosen now to engage in this public scandal when sports are already so wrought with druggies, criminals, cheaters, etc. There is quite a bit of good that the NFL does but a story like this knocks down 10 honorable actions. Did Goodell think it makes for good business to showcase this scandal? Perhaps, as a way to send a message to teams that he is the "Boss" and noone is immune to the "Boss's" strong hand. Does this equate with him putting a stamp on the NFL as his dominion? Smacking around some players is one thing, cracking a whole franchise is another.

This assumes the NFL set this up (as HC conspiracy-theorizes). I think it's more probable that Goodell is plenty unhappy about this coming up now -- especially since NE had a clear indication to stop doing it. I just don't think the NFL is interested in taking down a franchise that they have been fawning over for the past several years. Pretty much every comment about the Pats ends with the conclusion that they do things "the right way." Oops.

[The PatternMaster]

I was not going to wade into this but now I feel I must.

I see there being two primary issues in this scandal.

The first is the issue with the "letter of the rule", and the other is the "spirit of the rule".

THe "letter of the rule" issue is pretty simple. Clearly, if the NFL has a rule that states "no video-taping of coaching personnel during a game" and the Pats did that and were caught, then they should go through the disciplinary process and if found guilty, be subject to an approporiate levy that would be punitive enough to make them think twice about breaking the rule again. It wold also need to serve as deterrent in the league to the other team who may be engaged in such behavior but have not been caught.

The Pats have been found guilty already, it's just a matter of what their punishment will be.

Also Goodell has to act with a strong hand because of his previous rulings vs. players who violated the conduct code. If he is light on the Pats it will send the wrong message to the other owners and players, which he can't afford to do.

[HoosierCat]

I think it's more probable that Goodell is plenty unhappy about this coming up now -- especially since NE had a clear indication to stop doing it.

Well, that's just it -- they didn't. And the league was clearly prepared to move. I don't think Goody is happy about having to hammer NE, but if they aren't going to listen, he's got no choice.

Moreover, I don't think you can wait. Imagine NE gets away with its usual chicanery for the first few games and then Goody lowers the boom. Now what do you do about all those games that have been played? There are already people calling for the Pats to forfeit the win in NY. Imagine if you had 3, 4, 5, 6 or more teams involved? If you are going to come down on NE, you have to do it as early as possible.

I don't think this was a sting in the sense that the league wanted it to happen, but rather a set-up so that it could move as soon as possible.

[HairOnFire]

This assumes the NFL set this up (as HC conspiracy-theorizes). I think it's more probable that Goodell is plenty unhappy about this coming up now -- especially since NE had a clear indication to stop doing it.

Agreed. I doubt very much that the NFL set up the Patriots. Far more likely is that every NFL team was warned in general, and due to thier past history the Patriots might have been warned specifically. However, New England ignores the warning, and might have gotten away with continued cheating, had their week one opponent not been a division rival uniquely familiar with their tactics.

But the NFL very clearly didn't set a trap or ambush for the Patriots....because for that to be true there would have been no warning. Far more accurately, the NFL was forced into action by the Patriots refusal to stop cheating. Now factor in Belichick's reputation as an arrogant unlikable douche and you quickly understand why nobody feels compelled to coverup another embarrassing hit to the NFL's image.

[BengalszoneBilly]

Ask and ye shall receive

Are you the "BengalBilly" who just joined PatriotsPlanet?

That's me, but I didn't "just" join. Been a member there for a while, I just post there infrequently. I felt like giving them my 2 cents worth yesterday, that's all.

You do get around yourself, don't you?

[HoosierCat]

But the NFL very clearly didn't set a trap or ambush for the Patriots....because for that to be true there would have been no warning. Far more accurately, the NFL was forced into action by the Patriots refusal to stop cheating.

That's the whole point. The warning was the final attempt to do what BBTB suggests and keep the whole affair in-house. When they didnt, the trigger was there and got pulled. Like I said before, I don't think this was a sting in the sense that the league wanted it to happen, but rather a set-up so that it could move as soon as possible.

[HairOnFire]

Moreover, I don't think you can wait. Imagine NE gets away with its usual chicanery for the first few games and then Goody lowers the boom. Now what do you do about all those games that have been played? There are already people calling for the Pats to forfeit the win in NY. Imagine if you had 3, 4, 5, 6 or more teams involved? If you are going to come down on NE, you have to do it as early as possible.

But what do you do when more details come out...as I believe they will?

Frankly, I don't disagree with the above, but I find it curious that Goodell is rumored to be ready to act less than a week after the Patriot/Jet game was played.

[HairOnFire]

Like I said before, I don't think this was a sting in the sense that the league wanted it to happen, but rather a set-up so that it could move as soon as possible.

Fair enough.

[BengalByTheBay]

I think it's more probable that Goodell is plenty unhappy about this coming up now -- especially since NE had a clear indication to stop doing it.

Well, that's just it -- they didn't. And the league was clearly prepared to move. I don't think Goody is happy about having to hammer NE, but if they aren't going to listen, he's got no choice.

Moreover, I don't think you can wait. Imagine NE gets away with its usual chicanery for the first few games and then Goody lowers the boom. Now what do you do about all those games that have been played? There are already people calling for the Pats to forfeit the win in NY. Imagine if you had 3, 4, 5, 6 or more teams involved? If you are going to come down on NE, you have to do it as early as possible.

I don't think this was a sting in the sense that the league wanted it to happen, but rather a set-up so that it could move as soon as possible.

I suppose it's possible that the league may have suspected that NE would do it anyway. Or, maybe the NFL was blown away by the brazeness of the whole thing. I do agree that they had to blow the whistle on it right away or risk suggesting that everybody should just go ahead and start doing it too.

The interesting thing about the videotaping to me is that it's such an obvious thing to do with potentially minimal reward to it. Obviously, they thought it was worthwhile, but what balls of brass to keep doing it even after you've been repeatedly called on it.

If (and this strikes me as somewhat incredible if there's any truth to it at this point) NE was also f'ing with the radio transmissions in Foxborough -- that will be THE huge scandal. It doesn't take much imagination to understand the advantage to clearly taking away one of the basic tools of your opponent. That would be waaaayyy different to the average fan IMO because, unlike the video stuff, it's so easy to understand. Then -- the whole "how far back does this go" thing becomes a reality. Not only that, but Kraft would be completely implicated as well.

[HairOnFire]

Overheard during show intro on ESPNRadio....

Vick and Pacman paid the price...

for making the league look bad.

But if they don't hang Bill Belichick...

I think we've all been had.

[HoosierCat]

If (and this strikes me as somewhat incredible if there's any truth to it at this point) NE was also f'ing with the radio transmissions in Foxborough -- that will be THE huge scandal. It doesn't take much imagination to understand the advantage to clearly taking away one of the basic tools of your opponent. That would be waaaayyy different to the average fan IMO because, unlike the video stuff, it's so easy to understand. Then -- the whole "how far back does this go" thing becomes a reality. Not only that, but Kraft would be completely implicated as well.

As I understand the radio thing, and I say up front my understanding may be far from complete, there are at least two issues. One is the "mysterious failing visitors headsets" already chronicled here. The second is the use of a separate radio, operating on a separate frequency, that would be used by the Pats to give info to the QB during the last 15 second before the snap (the QB's helmet radio is supposed to be "dead" once the play clock counts down to 0:15, something I knew a long time ago but had forgotten until stumbling across it in an article today).

Based on what's out there right now, I think you're right that the average fan will latch on to the "failing headsets" thing. But I'm not sure that the other issue isn't the more important one.

[HoosierCat]

Like I said before, I don't think this was a sting in the sense that the league wanted it to happen, but rather a set-up so that it could move as soon as possible.

Fair enough.