Week 4: Bengals @ Broncos (MNF)

[AMPHAR]

I don't really care about the details of the game.   Drop Trey Hendrickson into coverage 100% of the time.  Whatever.

The overall point is this:

In 2015 AJ Green caught a playoff game winning TD! Then some shit happened and it wasn't a game winning TD.   The Marvin era was over right then and there.  Everyone knew it or everyone not employed by the Bengals.   

So?  Don't take 3 years to realize it.   Too many good coaches out there deserving a chance, So don't try to tinker/band aid this team to try to get Zac back to his high point.   He had his shot.  He's got 14 games left.

As of right now he blew it.  Sorry.     

In a weird way, Zac kinda proves the mistake it was to keep rolling Marvin back out there post 2015.   Zac had them in the Superbowl the 3rd season after Marvin.    

Unless this season turns drastically around don't waste time after the season with Zac.  Assume this shit season remains shit.  They got a realistic 2/3 season window remaining.    

Sucks for Zac.  Had your shot, you flew as high as you could.  Time to move on. 

 

[Allentown21]

There needs to be a philosophical shift on offense. Not dramatic but a little more power. More power with duo. More under center with a fullback.

 

You can't just drop back 40-50 times and be in shotgun. I mean burrow can, but the QB is under more stress, he's more vulnerable to hits and defenders just teeing off and ignoring the run. It makes any QB get happy feet....

 

Whatever happens with buffalo i think Joe Brady would be a great fit with Joe. They obviously know each other from LSU. 

 

He has really helped Allen mature and Allen plays from the Pocket with more poise and discipline 

Every great QB needs a solid running game and real power in the run game. It's fundamental to football 

[volcom69]

Joe Brady might be a decent head coach who knows, but he has no head coaching experience. At this point I think this team needs an experienced head coach, to counter act this shit show of a front office. Someone who has experience in how to run and makes changes when they need to. I often thought of that with Zac, he never put anyone with real experience with him.

Who are we kidding though nothing will happen, and if it does Darrien Simmons will be the next head coach lol. 

[AMPHAR]

There's more issues to address with Joe Burrow.    The truth is he's injury prone.  Another truth is he takes hits he could easily avoid and stubbornly/pridefully doesn't.   The ultimate truth is his last injury was mostly his fault. 

Other truths are he isn't some helpless player a victim of Zac's scheme.  Those are game plans and play calls he likes and is very much apart of. 

More truth is he has great relationship with Chase and Higgins who's contracts are significant for the next couple seasons at a min.  So if Burrow isn't sold then those two won't be either. 

So, Joe Burrow will be involved in the next coach search IF there is one.   Good luck trying to sell him the run game because he so far hasn't shown he's listening no matter how many hits he takes.

 

[HoosierCat]

2 hours ago, AMPHAR said:

There's more issues to address with Joe Burrow.    The truth is he's injury prone.  Another truth is he takes hits he could easily avoid and stubbornly/pridefully doesn't.   The ultimate truth is his last injury was mostly his fault. 

Other truths are he isn't some helpless player a victim of Zac's scheme.  Those are game plans and play calls he likes and is very much apart of. 

More truth is he has great relationship with Chase and Higgins who's contracts are significant for the next couple seasons at a min.  So if Burrow isn't sold then those two won't be either. 

So, Joe Burrow will be involved in the next coach search IF there is one.   Good luck trying to sell him the run game because he so far hasn't shown he's listening no matter how many hits he takes.

 

And that’s the terrible core of the issue. Fundamentally, the problem isn’t really Zac. It’s Burrow. The reason the Bengals are where they are right now is that both for five years the FO and the coaches have done everything they can to build Burrow’s dream offense. From draft picks to free agents to big contracts for guys like Chase and Tee, this is Joe’s team.

Changing Zac won’t change that. The FO is never going to back a HC against their quarter-billion-dollar QB. The next HC will have to be someone who will also defer to Burrow, and the beat will go on.

maybe they’re a better play caller? Or hire better assistants? I guess. Anything’s possible.

I agree that Zac’s time has come. But it feels increasingly like the Burrow era peaked three years in and now we are trapped.

[AMPHAR]

1st - Franchise QB not wanting to run the football is about as old as the forward pass itself.   So yes, fans on message boards etc with their simplistic solutions are not really living in reality.   Burrow has enough wealth, leadership, power in the local media and lockeroom to shit can any coach he wants.     Far fetched?   This happened with Elway and Dan Reeves, it happened with Marino and Jimmy Johnson.   Elway didn't believe in running the football until his prime was over and his last chances rode on the shoulders of Davis.   Marino never fucking learned.  

2nd - The Bengals drafted Jon Ross/Billy Price over generational QB talents like Mahomes, Allen, Jackson if favor of trying to get Marvin/Dalton to their glorious 2015 that was squandered.   Best not to repeat that mistake, IMO.

3rd. Bill Walsh acquired Steve Young while Joe Montana was winning and getting injured trying to win.  He even held the presence of Steve Young over his head.   That was cold.  Almost got them a 3 peat in Superbowls, the only thing stopping them from more dominance was a loaded Cowboys team.  

Very good QB class supposedly coming up in the draft.   At this point, I don't see why Joe Burrow is untouchable.    

Fans forget its ok and sometimes productive to put your franchise QB in their place.  Shit Aikman and Jimmy Johnson almost got a divorce because Jimmy did not start him in a playoff game. 

Local media is so far up Joe's ass they'll scoff at any sort of mention that the state of the team might because of Burrow a little.  Despite what the national narrative was concerning the Carson Palmer demanding a trade, that actually helped the Bengals.  

 

 

 

 

[ArmyBengal]

I mentioned previously that this team isn't good and probably couldn't beat either the Broncos or Chargers WITH Burrow.  Agree with the narrative being discussed that Burrow comes with his own set of warts and if he doesn't get them removed or some shit, they will continue to grow.

I recall the comments, based on the team's concerns, heading into the start of the season...
Golden just needs to improve the defense slightly.
Peters just needs to improve the o-line slightly.
The defensive players (CBT, Turner, Dax and other young guys) just need to take the next step.
They need to follow through on the talk of the running game we heard back then with Brown.

Heading into week 5 and you see all of what was hoped for has not come to fruition.
On top of Burrow getting hurt again, Golden and his players have failed.  The o-line looks like it has regressed.  The run game just isn't there and failure and failure.

I made a comment not long ago and stand by it.  Maybe Burrow isn't special.
I've already made up my mind about Zac not being special.  Despite me liking him, agree with it being over.
This team will be lucky to win many of their remaining games if this is the best to be had from them.

Detroit, Packers, Steelers x2, Ravens x2 and Bills?
I'd be willing to bet that's 7 losses right there.
The Jets, Bears, Patriots, Cardinals and Dolphins?
Those are 50/50 games as of right now.
Honestly, I don't think we beat the Browns in round 2.

Thing is, if they go 5-8 the rest of the way, it will get chalked up to Burrow and they will run it back in 2026.
Pick middle of the road in the draft, learn no lesson and prepare for another season of crap.

Yeah, I'm salty...

[AMPHAR]

I'm not sure if I'm reading advanced stats correctly.  But I don't think Golden has failed at all.

His unit currently has negative EPA of -36.   Which is very good.  This EPA is so good because the offense has a negative EPA of -41.  Which is a disaster.  Basically this tells a story of an offense that is very bad at helping the team win and the defense doing what it can to stop a sinking ship.

This is also confirmed in more traditional stats like yards gained, plays run, and TOP.  Bengals offense last or near last in everyone.   Bengals and Panthers are also the only two teams with 5 or more Take aways and a negative TO margin.  

The Bengals offense isn't just under performing from the expected performance.  Its actually making it impossible to win.  The fact they have 2 wins is on Golden's unit. 

That's not to say Golden's unit is awesome.  There's a ton to bitch about there but with just a normal "bad" offense the traditional defensive stats would be much better.   They never got the assumed Burrow MVP led offense in this season.

The overall point:  Zac kept Browning in the #2 spot for 3 seasons in his system.  Its on Zac to get this guy above the complete shit show he's been.  That's the first thing that has to happen and if its not Browning it has to be another QB.  

To put it in terms people can understand.  Browning has been worse than Akili Smith and Scott Mitchell days.  Those teams needed Corey Dillon to break Walter Peyton's record to look decent. 

Inexcusable from a Head Coach that is mainly responsible for the offense. 

 

 

[HoosierCat]

Joe looks at the passing plays. tl;dw Browning sucks.

 

[Coltsguy451]

My offer of half a Kit Kat bar has expired.

Hoosiercat's prickly demeanor has cost him dearly...

[AMPHAR]

Kit Kat is an underrated Candy and I hope to see more of it this trick or treat.  I'm going as an Arby's Italian Sub. 

Bengal fans have lived the opposite of what we are experiencing with Browning multiple times.  The 2 most familiar examples are Kitna and Blake.    Average at best QBs.  On bad teams.  On those teams a lot of people for whatever reason like to deflect blame away from a horrible QB situation.  Partial truth but inaccurate conclusion.   Both Kitna and Blake took over horrible QB situations and flipped to a level of adequate.   All of sudden hopeless teams with a million holes became average.

This current team is more talented than any of those abominations back in the 90s.  You get average QB play they'll challenge for a playoff spot, IMO.   I've seen enough All-22 line break downs to know there are struggles there but also positives.  I'm not going to believe the skill group have all gone past their prime at the same time.

I think the defense is giving us what we hoped before the season but as stated in the MNF broadcast needs up the expectation. 

In my mind can Zac get his chosen #2 QB to not be horrible?  If he can't he needs to be fired, period.  Then let the chips fall were they may with a new coach and the remaining staff.  I would say Tobin should be fired too, but that really seems too hard for the Brown family all at once. 

[ArmyBengal]

I'm good with not labeling Golden a failure after 4 weeks on the job and will give all the benefit of the doubt.  I liked the hire actually and still think with time and some rebooting of players, things improve more.  That being said, I will admit that I was just holding out hope it would be quicker.  Guess it's time to temper expectations. My fault.

Bengals defense through week 4:
Ranked 31st in total defense.
Ranked 30th in passing defense.
Ranked 26th in rushing defense.
Ranked 27th in scoring defense.

Truth be known, there are plenty of defensive players I don't think much of, but that's another story.

EDIT:  Zac can eat a dick.

[AMPHAR]

I say Expected Points Add (EPA) stats tell a more accurate view of the defense so far.   Their EPA taken at face value with no other consideration would have you believe they are the next Monsters of the Midway.   Now, we know that isn't true and not even remotely accurate.    So EPA is shit?  Nope.   You then look at the horrendous EPA of the offense.

These two numbers basically say through 4 weeks the offense has not only NOT given them a chance to win they have negatively effected any chance to win.    Yet they have 2 wins. 

Its very realistic they could be 0-4 with an even worse point differential than what they have currently.  Scary.   Its the defense that's plugged those holes so they are 2-2 with only 2 embarrassing losses.  

EPA is new to me.  Might be some voodoo bullshit but it jives from what I've seen.   The defense got 2 critical INTs to steal a victory in Cleveland.   The defense kept Jacksonville in reach despite 3 bad TOs from the offense while trailing.   There were multiple TOs against the Vikings that not only took points off the board for the Bengals but added points for the Vikes.   In Denver the defense was left on the field constantly because the offense or ST were penalizing themselves and shanking punts. 

I'd say the defense is far from good.  But its going to be harder to tell IF the Bengal offense continues to perform like it has the first 4 weeks.  

 

[ArmyBengal]

I don't disagree with that either.
This offense with Browning under center has been abysmal at best.

Zac being all in and have full faith in Browning should put everything squarely on his shoulders.
Also agree that in doing so, his job should hang in the balance of that result.

I think I know how this story "should" end...