Offseason Thoughts

[ArmyBengal]

His agent must have forgotten who his client plays for if that is what they are expecting.

I know there is a business to this and players want to get paid fairly when looking at what others make.

However, AS A FAN, this shit is irritating as hell.  I don't get how not showing up to be with your team shows your dedication to the team.
Yes, I know injuries happen and they are taking the risk, but that works both ways.  The team fully guarantees your contract and you blow out a knee.
I don't want to hear this from Bates and his agent at this point.  I don't know what the Bengals have offered at this point, but whatever.

The Bengals prepped for this very thing to happen.  They knew what the demands were and took action to make sure they were good.
Is Hill on the same level as Bates ??  I would guess not at this point, but to be honest, he might be the next Ed Reed for all we know.
Either way around, the Bengals have made the right decision in my opinion and I hope they stick to their plan here.

I already have Carman on the "Fuck You" list and am close to adding Bates at this point.
Not that it matters, but dude...

[TJJackson]

Bates is plenty smart enough to get it - that a player taking extra cap dollars is hurting his team - so he is choosing to hurt the team

I completely and utterly get it that he like any employee has the right to try to get paid his or her full value, but the cap and the fact that only one "company" (team) wins changes the dynamic

Capped salary for the team means that in essence all employees are capped as well, at least, if that company wishes to succeed, because the company needs more than one good employee to succeed, which means they need money to pay these other good employees as well

I know he knows this

so him choosing to demand more money is absolutely him choosing himself over team

selfish

he went from being a team leader to this me me me guy in one offseason

sad, really

I love Bates for what he has done for us.  He's been wonderful.  I wont forget that.  But this now.....he's throwing it all away for an extra 2-3 M

If it was me or you, we'd claw and scrape for 2-3M, but we dont have the benefit of already having 12M like he does, plus all his many millions earned before this. 12M is plenty enough for anyone for one year. 

Get real, Bates

 

[AMPHAR]

Not mad at Bates or Bengals.  The system be what it be. 

Jessie is not Ed Reed.   He is a good solid player.   I hope he does not sit out games but Training Camp is so soft now a days he could miss it all probably and contribute week 1. 

[ArmyBengal]

Bates coming into the second half of 2021 said he had been pressing a bit in thinking about his contract.
He knew then THAT was his biggest concern and had to find the "Old Jessie" because he wasn't playing well.
Is more money going to help him find that dude during the regular season ??
Is being paid all that money going to now have him pressing to prove he deserved his contract ??
Who knows, but I'm not pleased with him in this instance.

Have some balls, bet on yourself for the year which makes you the 10th highest paid safety in the league, and then cash in on the open market in 2023 because you know the Bengals aren't bringing you back at that asking price.  Stop asking the Bengals to pay you top 3 money when they aren't going to do it.  More importantly, and I think the Bengals know this, they SHOULDN'T do it.

Yes, there are TV contracts.  Yes, the cap will continue to go up.  However, it's not going to go up so much to allow a top end contract for a safety when Burrow and Chase are looming in the near future.  I had a conversation in the bar the other day and was chatting with a guy bitching about the Bengals and Mike Brown being cheap.  I asked him how much he liked Burrow and Chase and he blew their contracts off like it was nothing to worry about.  

Here's a question... How close are Burrow and Chase going to get to Aaron Rodgers and Devante Adams respectively ??
Rodgers gets 50 million per year and Adams gets 28 million per year.  So that's 78 million total for those two, and yes I know they aren't on the same team.
This when teams are capped at 208 million for everyone or nearly 38% of the total cap allowed.

Pay Bates that 18 million per year and now 3 players take up nearly half of the teams cap space.
Thinking longer term, and knowing how the Bengals planned for this, I say goodbye to Bates and work a trade for 2023 picks.
I will wish him the best of luck and thank him for his time here.  Now get the fuck out, I have other things to attend to.
 

[TJJackson]

when I boil it down to the basics, it is for me a grown man who is already a multi millionaire having a hissy fit over getting 12M rather than 14M

I cant tolerate that, despite how great he has been for us prior to this offseason

[cincyhokie]

Can anyone think of the last time there was a player who held out and then went on to progress in their playing performance? I can’t think of one. Neither someone who was traded or eventually played with their team. 
 

Hold outs are a reflection of scarcity mentality. I got to get mine. I don’t oppose getting your worth. But your play and attitude will get you that. It may not be exactly when you want it. But you will get it. Bates is rushing to the finish line and it will be his downfall.

[redsbengalsbucks]

Love Bates, but this is some pure BS.  All because of 2-3 million extra MONEY!

[ArmyBengal]

In all fairness that 3 million is per year, so on a 4 year deal, we are talking about 12 million.
That being said, fuck him.

Not only that, but I think players tend to read their own headlines at times and forget what made them successful.
Yes, they are athletically gifted and very good dat what they do, but what happens when Bates leaves for the money and finds himself in a different defense, being asked to do different things?  Anyone guaranteeing the same level of success ??

[Stripes]

I don’t blame Jessie Bates for doing what he thinks he has to do to secure the highest value for his family. When establishing a financial family legacy, a few extra million definitely matter.

I don’t blame the Bengals for trying to operate responsibly during a Super Bowl window with other major contracts looming.

I do, to some extent, blame the agent for being a pain in the ass and constructing drama. Tee Higgins has the same guy, so buckle up.

[ArmyBengal]

Bates has already made nearly 7 million.  Couple that with the tag this year, and he will finish 2022 having made nearly 20 million in his career.

Here's my thing when I hear about people wanting to take care of their families and that's why they want to fight for that extra few million.
How much does it really take ?? It would take the majority of people a tick less than 200 years to make what he will in 5.
I'm very fortunate in being able to take care of my family and am grateful everyday for what I have in this world.

Maybe I don't understand how to properly take care of my family.  
Then again, maybe they are just full of shit.

[TJJackson]

Stripes, I get what you're saying about the added 2-3 M for family legacy, but for me, this is the difference between going to Harvard or Cambridge.  Your family is going to be fine - better than fine - financially with or without the additional 2-3M

I could create a massive legacy for my family on just 2-3M alone, much less that 12M Bates is looking to earn this coming season or the 20M total he will have earned as of the end of this coming season

so now, this is a former team leader who has become a whiney baby in my eyes.  He is rich beyond what most of us can dream already, and will be many time morseso by the end of this coming season

enuff is enuff

[Stripes]

I think this kind of thing is very easy to preach when you’re not in a position to actually contend with a huge $$$ choice.

An extra 3-4 million per year can make an entire generation’s difference for your family name. You can set up your grandkids to carry on the legacy, or you can set up your great-grandkids (particularly when accounting for taxation and inflation). I don’t think that level of foresight should be dismissed.

As soon as we, in a fanbase, start thinking about the business of professional sports from a “what about how *I* live?” point of view, we’ve ventured outside any relevant space. Sure, we can build a family without a few extra million. We can’t do so as effectively or as comfortably though, and it won’t last as long. If Jessie Bates (and countless other pro athletes) wants to pursue that, or even less responsible personal pleasures because he believes his skills justify it, that’s his right.

Just my viewpoint. It’s a shit sandwich, but it’s part of the process.

[AMPHAR]

2 hours ago, cincyhokie said:

Can anyone think of the last time there was a player who held out and then went on to progress in their playing performance? I can’t think of one. Neither someone who was traded or eventually played with their team. 
 

Hold outs are a reflection of scarcity mentality. I got to get mine. I don’t oppose getting your worth. But your play and attitude will get you that. It may not be exactly when you want it. But you will get it. Bates is rushing to the finish line and it will be his downfall.

TJ Watt just won Defensive player of the year did not practice til game week 1.

Emmit Smith held out through Week 2 1993, won Superbowl maybe MVP of both the season and Superbowl. (Can not remember exactly.) 

There's been several probably if you think back through the years.   Hold outs are media talking points because it stirs emotion both ways.   It ultimately depends on the individual player but they can move past hold outs and have successful seasons.     In modern day TC/Preseason its not a negative at all for a Vet player.  Probably helps their legs and avoids injury.   Teams typically do not want starters in pre season games anyway.

 

 

[AMPHAR]

1 hour ago, ArmyBengal said:

Bates has already made nearly 7 million.  Couple that with the tag this year, and he will finish 2022 having made nearly 20 million in his career.

Here's my thing when I hear about people wanting to take care of their families and that's why they want to fight for that extra few million.
How much does it really take ?? It would take the majority of people a tick less than 200 years to make what he will in 5.
I'm very fortunate in being able to take care of my family and am grateful everyday for what I have in this world.

Maybe I don't understand how to properly take care of my family.  
Then again, maybe they are just full of shit.

Card goes both ways.  Brown family has more money than any singular player.

Its just a function of the system.  I personally think it is best for fans if players are not gauranteed full contracts.   See baseball.   But the trade is hold outs.

Bates can hold out, time will tell whether or not the agent is right on his value.  Then also time will tell with the team that invest in him whether or not its worth it.

Bengals have won a couple times and got burnt a couple times on not moving off their market value analysis.

 

 

[ArmyBengal]

The difference is the Mike Brown owns the team, not employed by it.

20 Million is someone making 100k for 200 years. I’m pretty sure taking care of future Bates family won’t present a challenge. Unless you suck at money management.

[AMPHAR]

44 minutes ago, ArmyBengal said:

The difference is the Mike Brown owns the team, not employed by it.

20 Million is someone making 100k for 200 years. I’m pretty sure taking care of future Bates family won’t present a challenge. Unless you suck at money management.

First how does "how much is enough" only apply to employees? 

Second, the family are actual employees collecting salaries.  I'm sure they get market value for their titles if for no other reason to reduce the tax liability of the revenues generated by the team.

 

[ArmyBengal]

4 hours ago, AMPHAR said:

First how does "how much is enough" only apply to employees? 

Second, the family are actual employees collecting salaries.  I'm sure they get market value for their titles if for no other reason to reduce the tax liability of the revenues generated by the team.

“How much is enough” can apply to anybody and everybody depending on your world view.
However, we are talking about Bates in this specific instance.

Again, the owners are different because they, you know, own the team.
I could care less about the family as they aren’t subject to the salary cap which is what we are talking about.

If someone would like to have a conversation about how much owners make, if it’s fair or how to reduce tax liability, then have at it.

So let me clearly define. When ANYONE has made 20 million in 5 years and then bitches about another 3, I personally feel that’s fucking ridiculous. Let me expand, what if he were to take a 4 year deal, paying him 48 million ?? Couple that with the nearly 8 million he’s already made, that’s 56 million. Still need to worry about how you are going to take care of your family ??

If the answer to that last question is yes, you are a fucking idiot that clearly knows nothing about good decisions, investments, or good money management. Funny, my 15 year old knows about all of those things…

[ShulaSteakhouse]

I can't imagine drafting Hill sat well with him either.   Hill "should" be a better over-all player, at least at some point.  I can't see them paying 2-3 safeties 1st round/top FA money.  Bates knows he's out, I'd want to get paid too after my best season and becoming a FA.  A one year deal just lowers his long-term value now most likely.

[ArmyBengal]

Bates is 86 days in his 25th birthday so at free agent time next year, he will be a shade over 26. A 4 year deal would be ideal for him I would assume. Probably why he wants to cash in now. There won’t be another big contract heading into the wrong side of 30.

Again, would love to have him back at a reasonable rate but understanding the business aspect of it, I think it would benefit all to make a trade.

Bates could hit on a 4-5 year deal and the Bengals could move forward with Hill and future picks.

[membengal]

If drafting Hill harshed his mellow, then that's on Bates. 

[ArmyBengal]

1 hour ago, membengal said:

If drafting Hill harshed his mellow, then that's on Bates. 

Agree.
Drafting Hill wasn't only a good pick based on his ability, but it was a smart business decision when considering Bates' situation.
It really is nice to see them continuing to make what I feel are good draft decisions.

I have already accepted the thought that Higgins won't be back after his rookie deal is up, but what more would a top of the market deal for Bates cost?

[TJJackson]

Do we draft Hill, even with accepting he was the absolute BPA at 31, if Bates had signed a longterm extension prior to the draft?

[Stripes]

Probably not. I think perceived need plays into the Bengals' draft board as much as athletic profile, collegiate production, and positional value do. So if they had Bates locked up, Hill would be lower on their board.

[UK Bengal]

Well holding out is not any longer as bad as it was from back in the day so if he chooses to hold out into the season the he loses financially and as stated we have drafted for this possibility.  I hope the rest of the locker room is smart and understands as we don't need any unrest(looking at the players who have tweeted bates needs to get paid) 

[membengal]

41 minutes ago, TJJackson said:

Do we draft Hill, even with accepting he was the absolute BPA at 31, if Bates had signed a longterm extension prior to the draft?

Maybe? LouA loves 3 S sets and the sharps were drooling over idea of Hill and Bates on the field together. The best version of this D has Bates/Bell/Hill on the field on many downs. If that makes Bates mad, well, eff him.