It's NOT the Fault of the Front Office

[cincyhokie]

I hear all of this complaining that the Bengals don't have a plan and a direction. Hello?! Don't you know the Bengals plan is to wait and see what the rest of the NFL does in the draft and free agency FIRST? How can you expect them to have a plan when the plan is to react? Geez. We all know being aggressive is not how you run an organization. It's done by being passive.

Plus, all teams go through streaks of 11+ consecutive losses and intermittent 4-12 seasons. It's just a part of the game! All teams go through this, right?

As Katie Blackburn famously said in Dallas in 2008, "It's hard to run an NFL franchise!"

Guys, the ox cart is just taking its routine lumps and has fallen in the ditch again. There's nothing that can be done here. Just be patient and stick to the system. We got this!

[COB]

I hope Katie has watched her father.  I hope she’s taken note of the arrogance, the scoffing dismissal of the opinions or complaints of fans. And the results his adherence to his outdated principles have produced.

 I wonder if there is any way she can look at his dismal career and think, “yes, this is how I’ll go forward when I have the reins.”

[HoosierCat]

I’m reading this thread while sipping a cup of Mock Turtle Soup. Foul stuff but one must get in the mood.

Now, can anyone tell me how to bypass the Mel Kiper paywall on ESPN? I wouldn’t want to have to just throw darts for draft picks. Oh wait, really I would. So much more fun that way.

[TJJackson]

On 11/13/2019 at 8:56 PM, cincyhokie said:

I hear all of this complaining that the Bengals don't have a plan and a direction. Hello?! Don't you know the Bengals plan is to wait and see what the rest of the NFL does in the draft and free agency FIRST? How can you expect them to have a plan when the plan is to react? Geez. We all know being aggressive is not how you run an organization. It's done by being passive.

Plus, all teams go through streaks of 11+ consecutive losses and intermittent 4-12 seasons. It's just a part of the game! All teams go through this, right?

As Katie Blackburn famously said in Dallas in 2008, "It's hard to run an NFL franchise!"

Guys, the ox cart is just taking its routine lumps and has fallen in the ditch again. There's nothing that can be done here. Just be patient and stick to the system. We got this!

Uhm, COB is giving lessons now?

I guess with all those former players and coaches cleaning his gutters all the time, he has time to spare for that

 

[Wraith]

You know if they had a competent GM and an NFL caliber scouting dept. (pro and college) and they were still getting these results after changing over front office staffs and changing methodologies....maybe...

If you do business a different way than everyone else in the industry and everyone else has had success and you do not and you refuse to change how you are doing business, then the failure is on you.  This ALL lands on the head of Mike Brown.

 

[HoosierCat]

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

You know if they had a competent GM and an NFL caliber scouting dept. (pro and college) and they were still getting these results after changing over front office staffs and changing methodologies....maybe...

If you do business a different way than everyone else in the industry and everyone else has had success and you do not and you refuse to change how you are doing business, then the failure is on you.  This ALL lands on the head of Mike Brown.

 

Well, I suppose it all depends on how you define “success.”

Look back to the late 1980s. At that point, the Brown family was facing a possible repeat of Paul’s ending in Cleveland: being forced to sell the team in order to pay the inheritance tax due upon Paul’s death. But true to his innovative nature, the elder Brown has one last trick to play, a stock scheme that allowed him to pass along the Bengals to his heirs without their paying a cent to Uncle Sam. And when the IRS sued, they lost.

Paul’s death, of course, came just as the money volcano now known as the NFL began to erupt. Over the next three decades, literally tens of thousands of players, coaches, managers and executives would put in countless billions of man hours of work to build one of the most lucrative sports entities to ever exist.

Mike Brown’s role in this? He cashed some checks.

So, success? Mike’s the very definition of success: he’s become a multi-millionaire by doing nothing but cashing checks earned by everyone else. Isn’t that the American Dream, to attach oneself leech like to a fountain of success and suck until you die? To contribute nothing and be rewarded for it? To be one of the most successful parasites in the history of American business?

okay, well, it’s maybe not everyone’s definition of success. But it appears to work for Mike.

[Wraith]

47 minutes ago, HoosierCat said:

Well, I suppose it all depends on how you define “success.”

Look back to the late 1980s. At that point, the Brown family was facing a possible repeat of Paul’s ending in Cleveland: being forced to sell the team in order to pay the inheritance tax due upon Paul’s death. But true to his innovative nature, the elder Brown has one last trick to play, a stock scheme that allowed him to pass along the Bengals to his heirs without their paying a cent to Uncle Sam. And when the IRS sued, they lost.

Paul’s death, of course, came just as the money volcano now known as the NFL began to erupt. Over the next three decades, literally tens of thousands of players, coaches, managers and executives would put in countless billions of man hours of work to build one of the most lucrative sports entities to ever exist.

Mike Brown’s role in this? He cashed some checks.

So, success? Mike’s the very definition of success: he’s become a multi-millionaire by doing nothing but cashing checks earned by everyone else. Isn’t that the American Dream, to attach oneself leech like to a fountain of success and suck until you die? To contribute nothing and be rewarded for it? To be one of the most successful parasites in the history of American business?

okay, well, it’s maybe not everyone’s definition of success. But it appears to work for Mike.

We keep hearing this BS that "nobody wants to win more than Mike Brown".  We heard it from Marvin when defending the organization, we have also heard it from Collinsworth and Esiason.  I don't doubt that is true as long as we add the addendum "as long as they win HIS way" as in...

"Nobody wants to win more than Mike Brown as long as they win doing it HIS way". Because that would validate that his way works, the issue is...it doesn't and thus they won't and he refuses to change.

[HoosierCat]

13 minutes ago, Wraith said:

We keep hearing this BS that "nobody wants to win more than Mike Brown".  We heard it from Marvin when defending the organization, we have also heard it from Collinsworth and Esiason.  I don't doubt that is true as long as we add the addendum "as long as they win HIS way" as in...

"Nobody wants to win more than Mike Brown as long as they win doing it HIS way". Because that would validate that his way works, the issue is...it doesn't and thus they won't and he refuses to change.

I’ve always said. Mike wants to win in the NFL the same way I want to win the lotto. I want to win the lotto, but I don’t buy tickets because it’s a ripoff. So I want to win the lotto, but I don’t actually do anything (like buy tickets) to do so.

[TJJackson]

Itd help me a lot if I had any confidence at all that Pumpkin will be better

But I dont

[COB]

3 hours ago, HoosierCat said:

Well, I suppose it all depends on how you define “success.”

Look back to the late 1980s. At that point, the Brown family was facing a possible repeat of Paul’s ending in Cleveland: being forced to sell the team in order to pay the inheritance tax due upon Paul’s death. But true to his innovative nature, the elder Brown has one last trick to play, a stock scheme that allowed him to pass along the Bengals to his heirs without their paying a cent to Uncle Sam. And when the IRS sued, they lost.

Paul’s death, of course, came just as the money volcano now known as the NFL began to erupt. Over the next three decades, literally tens of thousands of players, coaches, managers and executives would put in countless billions of man hours of work to build one of the most lucrative sports entities to ever exist.

Mike Brown’s role in this? He cashed some checks.

So, success? Mike’s the very definition of success: he’s become a multi-millionaire by doing nothing but cashing checks earned by everyone else. Isn’t that the American Dream, to attach oneself leech like to a fountain of success and suck until you die? To contribute nothing and be rewarded for it? To be one of the most successful parasites in the history of American business?

okay, well, it’s maybe not everyone’s definition of success. But it appears to work for Mike.

Just remember, without the Washington Generals, there are no Harlem Globetrotters.

[cincyhokie]

You guys are full of crap! Things happen! Players get injured. Half the league loses every week! Someone HAS to lose. Learn math!

[Passepartout]

People are human you are right. Players do get injured. As at times it is beyond a game. It's life!

[Wraith]

16 hours ago, cincyhokie said:

You guys are full of crap! Things happen! Players get injured. Half the league loses every week! Someone HAS to lose. Learn math!

You are right, two years of college Calculus and a year of college Statistics at a Big Ten University are clearly not enough to understand the complex mathematical puzzle that is Win/Loss percentages in the NFL.

In an open system Wins and Losses would be a simple crapshoot, they could also decide games based off a coin flip.  The issue here is that the Bengals have biased the outcome (against themselves) by not playing the game the same way the other teams are.

• Other teams have large front office and scouting departments that feed competitive data to their coaches and players, the Bengals have Duke Tobin, his dad (part time), two directors, and two scouts.  Dallas has 35 college and pro scouts.
• These scouts also feed information to player personnel departments about what pro players they should target in Free Agency, the Bengals have 1 guy responsible for this.....
• and develop in depth draft dossiers on prospects based off of interviews with High School and College coaches and full time film as well as in person observations from practices and games - the Bengals used to have the Drugstore List guy until he died a few years ago.
• The scouting and player personnel departments are managed by the General Manager who sets the tone of the organization and makes sure thing s are being run in accordance to current trends and methodologies...The Bengals have 84 year old Mike Brown.
• Other teams have Analytics departments breaking down film, trends, player personnel decisions), the Bengals have an IT guy who doubles as the media guy.

Compare this (eliminating the owners direct family) Bengals Executive Front Office: 

Director of player personnel - Duke Tobin

Personnel executive - Bill Tobin

Scouting Director (College) - Mike Potts

Scouting Director (Pro) - Steven Radicivec

 

to this New England Executive Front Office (also eliminating the owners direct family):

General Manager - Bill Belicheck

Director of Player Personnel - Nick Caserio

Director of College Scouting - Monti Ossenfort

Asst. Director of College Scouting - Brian Smith

Director of Pro Personnel - Dave Ziegler

Director of Scouting Administration - Nancy Meier

Football Research Director - Ernie Adams

Director of Football/Head Coach Administration - Berj Najarian

Director of Skill Development - Joe Kim

 

Under these guys New England has dozens of other front office personnel (scouts, Analytics, Training, etc.) the Bengals have 2.

The Ownership is the problem because Mike Brown doesn't think any of this is necessary, and Mike Brown believes this because his dad didn't have to do this to be successful....in 1964....

 

[COB]

All good points Wraith, and perhaps Hokie was having a bit of fun at our expense there, he’s parroting a Mike Brown quote in which he complained about the mathematical conundrum  nfl teams face, ie half the teams lose every week.

If we had New England’s scouting department maybe we wouldn’t waste a draft pick on pregnant person puncher Mark Walton.  Complete waste of a pick.

[TJJackson]

or at least not draft him in r4

injury or trouble risk (ie risks of non-availability) need to wait til r6 or preferrably later

r4 needs to have a chance to be a starter or at least frequent plus contributor

[cincyhokie]

There is no Hokie in this post. I am Who Dey Homer #1. 
 

Losing is underrated.

[HoosierCat]

Lol yeah I think Poe’s Law* bit Wraith in the butt this time.

 

 

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe's_law

 

[Wraith]

2 hours ago, HoosierCat said:

Lol yeah I think Poe’s Law* bit Wraith in the butt this time.

 

 

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe's_law

 

Mea Culpa,. I am high functioning autistic so detecting sarcasm for me is very nearly impossible under normal circumstances....on a forum post, no chance.

[HoosierCat]

3 hours ago, Wraith said:

Mea Culpa,. I am high functioning autistic so detecting sarcasm for me is very nearly impossible under normal circumstances....on a forum post, no chance.

No harm done. Fwiw your analysis is spot on, their personnel department is hopelessly inadequate given their strategy of building through the draft.

[Wraith]

This season has triggered me more than any season since the drafting of Akili Smith.   It isn't the losing, I could handle that, it is the stubborn refusal to do anything about the gigantic hole in the roster that everyone could see in the pre-season and then when the season was lost the ludacrous decision not to trade tradable assets that will not resign with the team next year just sent me over the edge.

[cincyhokie]

6 minutes ago, Wraith said:

This season has triggered me more than any season since the drafting of Akili Smith.   It isn't the losing, I could handle that, it is the stubborn refusal to do anything about the gigantic hole in the roster that everyone could see in the pre-season and then when the season was lost the ludacrous decision not to trade tradable assets that will not resign with the team next year just sent me over the edge.

It's maddening. Agreed. Although, I've been a Bengals fan since 1981 (I was 5), I don't remember much of those lost seasons 1991-2002. I was fortunate to have a job in high school where I worked Sundays. Then I went to school at Virginia Tech and didn't get to see more than 3 games in those years. Having the Hokies be so good was a great distraction as well.

I literally saw 3 televised games from 1991-2000. I don't remember the Akili talk. And for good reason.

[COB]

20 minutes ago, Wraith said:

This season has triggered me more than any season since the drafting of Akili Smith.   It isn't the losing, I could handle that, it is the stubborn refusal to do anything about the gigantic hole in the roster that everyone could see in the pre-season and then when the season was lost the ludacrous decision not to trade tradable assets that will not resign with the team next year just sent me over the edge.

Yep.  Their stubborn refusal to change the way they do business is nonsensical.  Think of the draft picks we could be holding! Switzerland was nice though.

[TJJackson]

for me, even though the Bengals can now afford to win a game and still retain the overall number 1 pick (since even the actively tanking Dolphins have 2 wins) I see it as an absolute team need to lose EVERY STINKIN GAME purely for the embarassment I hope (and pray, on my knees) it brings to Son of a Genius and the front office as a whole

we could have a dozen first round picks and without a good decisionmaking for said picks, it wouldnt imho help at all.....so to me, the decision making process needs to be VASTLY improved F I R S T

the embarrassment of 0-16 has an outside chance of sparking such a change.....really the only thing other than a certain individual passing away.....

also to Wraith:  I always love reading your stuff.  Keep it coming, good sir :-)

 

[AMPHAR]

They lost 10 in a row to the Steelers the supposed franchise the Bengals Brass holds as the Gold Standard.   The record inside PBS against the Steelers is embarrassing and the stadium bears your father's name.      A few times during the year all the owners get together discuss things.    You sit in the same room as these people.

If losing 10 in a row to the same competitors that you've chased for decades doesn't get your blood boiling or cause some sort embarrassment then the only conclusion is they just don't fucking care. 

I dropped my tickets this is the 2nd season without.   When the team competes on the field I may return.  So it's not like a boycott.   But this franchise doesn't care about winning.  There's no way anybody could withstand that IF they were trying to win.     There's other ways to follow them and be a fan. 

Keep the money in your pocket and match your level of interest as the Brown family's.    So I'll post my opinions on message boards and watch on Sundays when the schedule is clear.   It won't change anything but you'll feel better.

[COB]

1 hour ago, AMPHAR said:

It won't change anything but you'll feel better.

Perhaps season ticket holders can all be treated to a wine and cheese reception at PBS, featuring a 2 hour slide show of the family’s trip to Switzerland at the trade deadline. (First glass free, cash bar after that.  Mandatory attendance at brief presentation introducing you to all the great features and benefits of the U.S. Bank Cincinnati Bengals Visa Card).