The Problem Is Clear

[gregcook68]

Too busy in my life to let football get out of it's proper order spending too much time beyond watching the games, but the problem with this franchise is real simple, actually.

There is only one constant with this franchise since 1991, the year he took over, Mike Brown.

Coincidentally, they have not won a playoff game since then, let alone made a SB appearance.

Coaches and players have come and gone and the only coach that may have made a difference was fired by Brown the year he was handed the baton. (Sam Wyche)

Nothing will change until he passes the baton on to someone else, and even then, it's no guarantee depending on who ends up with the baton!

Pick apart and analyze all you want until the cows come home, but it is, what it is!

No 'fix' until/when he steps down!

[volcom69]

Yea starting to think this way as well. They have yet to learn to run a franchise, and I'm starting to think they never will. 

Really how much pull does Marvin have? I thought for years this was pretty much Marvins team, making most of the desicions, but I wonder anymore about that. 

Really does Marvin believe in some of these coaches like Zampese, or Paul guys who have been here before Marvin? I'm starting to wonder if Marvin went to Mike and said we need a change, and he turned him down?  Not really sure what to believe at this point.

Will a coaching change even matter at this point, or will Mike continue to tell others they are not changing his franchise around.

All I know if watching this team sucks, it's boring and not fun at all. They are 7-10-1 since the end of last year, so it's been going down hill since then. Depressing times for bengals fans again, and not sure it's going to change

[Stripes]

I think that if Marvin had asked for a significant change, he'd have gotten his way.  He is a very conservative coach, and that might be why he gets on well with a very conservative owning family.  Heck, we just saw an example of the defensive coordinator wanting to light fires under people's asses only to be undercut by a head coach too timid to put starters on the bench.

[gregcook68]

The two biggest ego mistakes Mike and his father did was:

1.  Naming Tiger Johnson as HC, instead of Bill Walsh, when Paul Brown stepped down.

2.  Firing Sam Wyche after 2 straight years of playoff appearances, going 3-2 in the playoffs.

[gregcook68]

3 minutes ago, Stripes said:

I think that if Marvin had asked for a significant change, he'd have gotten his way.  He is a very conservative coach, and that might be why he gets on well with a very conservative owning family.  Heck, we just saw an example of the defensive coordinator wanting to light fires under people's asses only to be undercut by a head coach too timid to put starters on the bench.

3 Sidebars:  1. I saw a post where Mike Brown went bonkers because 15 hot dogs were given away to hungry vendors!!

                    2. Glad to hear Green will make it back for no other reason to get the 36 yards he needs to hit 1000 for his first 6 years tying Ross and with a chance to do 7.

                    3. Marvin Lewis is a good man and a good DC, just not a good HC.

[volcom69]

28 minutes ago, Stripes said:

I think that if Marvin had asked for a significant change, he'd have gotten his way.  He is a very conservative coach, and that might be why he gets on well with a very conservative owning family.  Heck, we just saw an example of the defensive coordinator wanting to light fires under people's asses only to be undercut by a head coach too timid to put starters on the bench.

Sure and you might be right, I just don't know anymore about this franchise. It's like they had so much, but yet still found a way to lose it all. 

I'm just hoping for big changes, something to get me excited again about bengals football, but I won't hold my breath.

[AMPHAR]

Marvin Lewis owns his failures.    He is a capable NFL coach that choked in the playoffs with a ton of talent.   

Mike Brown's current failure in this era is sticking with him.

Marty Schotenheimer doesn't get a pass of blaming ownership and neither should Marvin. 

 

and don't look now but Gruden is doing a hell of a job in Washington DC. 

 

 

        

[COB]

Mike's just a convenient punching bag.  If one really looks into it, he has modernized the team in several ways - the most important being he spends money on players up to the salary cap.  Not sure of towel size, not sure of current Lumina driveability, not sure of scouting staff of one person with 5 nephews as part-timers, not sure of all other Brown cheapness narratives from 30 years ago.  

[gregcook68]

6 hours ago, AMPHAR said:

Marvin Lewis owns his failures.    He is a capable NFL coach that choked in the playoffs with a ton of talent.   

Mike Brown's current failure in this era is sticking with him.

Marty Schotenheimer doesn't get a pass of blaming ownership and neither should Marvin. 

 

and don't look now but Gruden is doing a hell of a job in Washington DC. 

 

Marvin isn't blaming anybody that I know of.  Marvin only started here in 2003.  Mike Brown fired the coach that could have taken this franchise to the Lombardi and hasn't been able to put together a credible staff since the day he took ownership in 1991!

Skirt around all the issues you want, but you need to make up your minds.  Do you want a nice guy who cares about his team and players and their lives off the football field and 'modernized' his team in so so many ways but couldn't win even a playoff game if his life depended on it, or do you want an owner, like Robert Kraft, who could care less about anything but winning with 4 Lombardis, willing to fire players on the spot that can't produce?

Oh yes, one other thing, it's been said in here for the last 6 years that this franchise will never win a thing with Howdy Doody at the helm, so there's that too!!!

 

Quote

        

 

[kingwilly]

8 hours ago, COB said:

Mike's just a convenient punching bag.  If one really looks into it, he has modernized the team in several ways - the most important being he spends money on players up to the salary cap.  Not sure of towel size, not sure of current Lumina driveability, not sure of scouting staff of one person with 5 nephews as part-timers, not sure of all other Brown cheapness narratives from 30 years ago.  

Brown is required to spend the whole cap amount, by nfl rule, so I'm not giving credit for that. He has made progress but not enough when compared to traditionally bad teams that are more competitive, like the Saints and Cardinals. 

What the place needs is a fresh coaching staff, not tied to Marvin. He's just not good enough. Does anyone think he'd get smother nfl HC job? I doubt it. 

[COB]

2 minutes ago, kingwilly said:

 Does anyone think he'd get smother nfl HC job? I doubt it. 

Nope.  And Marvin blew it, because a couple years ago he was thought of as a sort of turn around expert.  He could have gotten a five year deal somewhere with a lot of control.  

So many organizations just can't change their culture.  They're desperate and Marvin had a great chance at a job with big money.

I agree he'd be hard pressed to get one now.  Our window closed and Marvin's window has closed, too.

[kingwilly]

25 minutes ago, COB said:

Nope.  And Marvin blew it, because a couple years ago he was thought of as a sort of turn around expert.  He could have gotten a five year deal somewhere with a lot of control.  

So many organizations just can't change their culture.  They're desperate and Marvin had a great chance at a job with big money.

I agree he'd be hard pressed to get one now.  Our window closed and Marvin's window has closed, too.

Totally agree. 

 

Just blow it up. A real reset to start fresh. There is still a core of guys who can be built around

Offense: Dalton, Green, Eifert, Hill, Zeitler, Boyd. 

Defense: Tez, Dunlap, Jackson, Iloka, maybe Dennard, maybe Atkins. 

I'm sure I've missed some but there is a small core to keep. Most can slide off, and rebuild. 

Give me a guy like Jim Mora Jr. , or Josh McDaniels, or Matt Patricia. Hell aim high for a guy like Jon Gruden. 

[cincyhokie]

In an ideal world, I'd like to see the Bengals go after this guy.

James Franklin, HC Penn St.

 

[ArmyBengal]

I want to see a coach that is not only capable of moving this team over the hump, but gets fired up about it as well.
Marvin shows little to no emotion.  It's like there's no joy in the game for him.
Can't tell from watching, but things like that tend to trickle down to players.

While I don't want Rex Ryan specifically, I want someone with his level of fire on the sideline.
I cannot tell you how much it pains me when during the game the camera goes to Marvin.
With that stupid, clueless, look on his face.  Whenever that happens, I just want to turn the game off.

This is what I think of when they show Marvin's face on the sideline:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgOPxG2_wgA

 

[HoosierCat]

And now, a dissenting viewpoint.

(and no, I am not Chris Chase)

 

[ArmyBengal]

That's not a new narrative by any stretch.  That narrative has probably played a large part in him keeping his job for years.
It's time to write a new narrative.  Might the new one take time to develop ??  Sure, but make the effort.
Don't sit back and continue to do the same thing expecting different results.

What part of no playoffs victories in his 14 year tenure do people not understand ??
What other team gives and what other coach has gotten that kind of leeway ??

"Don't know what you've got 'til it's gone" ??  Yes we will.  It's called zero playoff victories.
How could THIS organization lose sight of that particular fact ??

Thing is, I don't know any fan that isn't appreciative of what Marvin has done in turning around this franchise.
It's just time to do, or at least try to do, something different.

[gregcook68]

20 minutes ago, ArmyBengal said:

That's not a new narrative by any stretch.  That narrative has probably played a large part in him keeping his job for years.
It's time to write a new narrative.  Might the new one take time to develop ??  Sure, but make the effort.
Don't sit back and continue to do the same thing expecting different results.

What part of no playoffs victories in his 14 year tenure do people not understand ??
What other team gives and what other coach has gotten that kind of leeway ??

"Don't know what you've got 'til it's gone" ??  Yes we will.  It's called zero playoff victories.
How could THIS organization lose sight of that particular fact ??

Thing is, I don't know any fan that isn't appreciative of what Marvin has done in turning around this franchise.
It's just time to do, or at least try to do, something different.

Which goes right back to the first OP!!  The article mentioned Wyche leaving, he left because Brown fired him!!!

So many football minds here and it can't be seen that the elephant in the room is Mike Brown!!  

1.  He's NOT going to fire Marvin. Marvin will decide when Marvin leaves.

2.  He's NOT going to give control over to his HC.  He's already proven that he's not interested in the fireball coaches which is, reading between the lines, part of the reason why Wyche got fired.

3.  NOTHING changes until he passes the baton. We can sit here and try to divert the blame away, but things will remain the same.

4.  Lastly, his father was a different breed.  When he passed the baton to Mike, things went south as far as the Lombardi goes.  Yes Marvin is a great man, and a good DC and probably would make an excellent GM, but he lacks what it takes to take his team to the next level.  Period!!

The Reds finally figured that out with Dusty Baker.

[HoosierCat]

On 11/22/2016 at 10:30 AM, COB said:

Mike's just a convenient punching bag.

Well, it's certainly true he's a convenient punching bag, but there are reasons for that, and the chief one doesn't have anything to do with money. It has to do with attitude. Mike Brown is often described as "the most patient owner in sports" in his approach to coaching changes. He once described his strategy to Paul Daugherty as "someday we'll get the right collection of players together and we'll win." I can go on but the point is that the lack of urgency and accountability within the organization under Mike is beyond quantification. It's foundational, definitional, baked completely into the cake. (And it is so diametrically opposed to the way his father ran the show that I can't help but wonder if there isn't something psychological at play there, but I'm not qualified to have an opinion on that.)

I don't know how a new coach changes that. Even when coaches have tried, they've been blocked. The most famous example is Lewis' attempt to move on from Chris Henry, cutting him after more off-field problems, then having injuries hit the WR corps, then saying publicly he still wasn't bringing him back, then having Mike lop off his nads by re-signing him anyhow. How can a coach instill urgency and accountability when players know management won't really let anything happen, aside from booting the occasional fourth-string nobody like AJ Nicholson? I have no answers, other than to agree with gregcook: until a change comes at the top and we get someone in ownership who actually cares about winning and is willing to shake things up when it doesn't happen, well, all we can do is hope for that magic fairy dust to sprinkle down, give us the right collection of players, and we'll win.

[Stripes]

I think it's poor logic to just assume that Marvin Lewis is the only thing holding this team back from returning to its '90s misery.  The entire franchise has changed a lot since then as much as we all like to fight that notion.  There are still some core similarities, but 1995 is long gone.  Forget about it.  I don't care about it.  That's no excuse to be satisfied with 0-7 in the playoffs and 3-6-1 right now.

I don't know if a new head coach would do any better.  A failure to make the attempt though is the worst kind of complacency.

[AMPHAR]

1.  Marvin Lewis post Bengals would get another HC opportunity IF he wanted one.   I think he retires.  But look at some of the dudes that get jobs as HC.  Any HC that constantly has assistants interviewed/hired for promotions is going to get a look for somewhere.   Just about every former Ravens D Coordinator has gotten bites at HC opportunities after Marvin. 

2. Marvin Lewis has had everything post 2010 to win a singular playoff game.  Go look  through the list of QBs/HCs that have won a playoff game.   Lewis has choked and failed.  The only thing Mike Brown has to do with it is that he's kept him around.    Going to a Superbowl is a higher bar but they've had the talent and roster to do it, IMO.

3. It is very poor logic and just refusal to look at FACTS if you believe Marvin Lewis is the sole barrier between current day Bengals and 90s Bengals.  

4.  Just about every head coach that doesn't function as the GM has their nuts cut off at times.   Bengal fans are scarred and like to pretend this doesn't happen else where mostly in fear of the 90s Mike Brown boogey man returning.     It's hit and miss for coaches that serve as both GM/HC role. 

The 90s were a function of a changing financial NFL environment and the Brown family refusing change and also counting nickels to acquire more of the team.  Today they are just sitting back and letting football people run it.   Mike likes driving around in his golf cart being grandpa to the players instead of boss.   

  

[AMPHAR]

1 hour ago, gregcook68 said:

Which goes right back to the first OP!!  The article mentioned Wyche leaving, he left because Brown fired him!!!

So many football minds here and it can't be seen that the elephant in the room is Mike Brown!!  

1.  He's NOT going to fire Marvin. Marvin will decide when Marvin leaves.

2.  He's NOT going to give control over to his HC.  He's already proven that he's not interested in the fireball coaches which is, reading between the lines, part of the reason why Wyche got fired.

3.  NOTHING changes until he passes the baton. We can sit here and try to divert the blame away, but things will remain the same.

4.  Lastly, his father was a different breed.  When he passed the baton to Mike, things went south as far as the Lombardi goes.  Yes Marvin is a great man, and a good DC and probably would make an excellent GM, but he lacks what it takes to take his team to the next level.  Period!!

The Reds finally figured that out with Dusty Baker.

Tobin turned down GM opportunities.   Change has happened a long time ago.      By the way Sam never won shit after the Bengals and should have been fired in 1991.   One of the worse coaching jobs ever after 1988.  

[gregcook68]

2 hours ago, AMPHAR said:

Tobin turned down GM opportunities.   Change has happened a long time ago.      By the way Sam never won shit after the Bengals and should have been fired in 1991.   One of the worse coaching jobs ever after 1988.  

Opinions are like assholes .... we all have at least one!!

BTW he's got the most playoff wins in franchise history!

[HoosierCat]

3 hours ago, AMPHAR said:

Lewis has choked and failed.  The only thing Mike Brown has to do with it is that he's kept him around. 

Well, I would say that's the only thing that really matters, no?

3 hours ago, AMPHAR said:

 Today they are just sitting back and letting football people run it.

If that's the case, they have some pretty dumb football people. Do I really need to list all the poor personnel decisions -- the last extensions for Peko and FNR, for example, or the blown tender to Baby Hawk, or paying a crippled Hall huge money for his last year, or even today's choice to bring up Peerman not WJ3? Obviously there are more. This is still a shoestring operation and a lot of their success over the past six years looks more and more to me like just dumb luck. 

[ArmyBengal]

It's certainly hard for us fans to really determine what the hell is going on.

I personally don't think Mike Brown has that much to do with it anymore.
Outside of the decision to keep him around, it appears that most other things are handled by someone else.
Drafting, contracts, etc.  He's surely not responsible for how sh*tty the coaches have been lately.
How do we know HE'S the one calling that shot either ??  Seriously, do we know that ??

He's just the owner so he's takes that on. 
Don't get me wrong, i'm not giving him a pass.  Merely saying I don't think any of us truly know.

Opinions are like assholes, but who's opinion on this board concerning the inner workings of this team is beyond a shadow of the doubt ??
I'm thinking that answer is somewhere right around ZERO.  Why argue ??

[COB]

My opinion that Mike shoulders almost no blame for this season's shit show is based on the vacant look on his face as he putters around in his golf cart.