Andy Dalton Sucks!

[ArmyBengal]

Yes, Alex Smith and Nick Foles rarely turn the ball over. I will admit to loving that aspect and wishing more of it from Dalton.

That being said, both are in the same spot Dalton is. Home.

Dalton isn't getting replaced in 2014 period. I will bet a years paycheck on it if there are any takers.

Serious, i'll draw up the deal and we can take it to the courthouse to certify it. (If that would hold up)

2015 ?? I won't go that far and as i've said many times, 2014 will be the tell all for Dalton AND Marvin.

If they want to dump him after that, I would have less concern, but I would guess that would be a tough decision.

It might not be for those that are frustrated at the moment, but that doesn't negate things for the front office.

[cincyhokie]

Yes, Alex Smith and Nick Foles rarely turn the ball over. I will admit to loving that aspect and wishing more of it from Dalton.

That being said, both are in the same spot Dalton is. Home.

Dalton isn't getting replaced in 2014 period. I will bet a years paycheck on it if there are any takers.

Serious, i'll draw up the deal and we can take it to the courthouse to certify it. (If that would hold up)

2015 ?? I won't go that far and as i've said many times, 2014 will be the tell all for Dalton AND Marvin.

If they want to dump him after that, I would have less concern, but I would guess that would be a tough decision.

It might not be for those that are frustrated at the moment, but that doesn't negate things for the front office.

We shall see, yep. I feel much better about situations like this as of late because I actually trust the Bengals in making the right decision long term. Dalton is certainly here in 2014, as he should be.

One thing we have overlooked too, is the slight possibility of Ken Zampese being replaced. Slight, yes. But it would be interesting to see if that happens.

[Sea Ray]

Yes, Alex Smith and Nick Foles rarely turn the ball over. I will admit to loving that aspect and wishing more of it from Dalton.

That being said, both are in the same spot Dalton is. Home.

Dalton isn't getting replaced in 2014 period. I will bet a years paycheck on it if there are any takers.

Serious, i'll draw up the deal and we can take it to the courthouse to certify it. (If that would hold up)

2015 ?? I won't go that far and as i've said many times, 2014 will be the tell all for Dalton AND Marvin.

If they want to dump him after that, I would have less concern, but I would guess that would be a tough decision.

It might not be for those that are frustrated at the moment, but that doesn't negate things for the front office.

I agree Dalton will be back. I think 49er fans thought the same thing about Alex Smith 18 mos ago. I'd like to have another option on the roster in case Dalton falters or gets injured

[COB]

I'm cradling the life-sized Colin Kaepernick doll I made out of corn husks and old bed sheets. It just makes me feel better.

Spooning with "Colin" now.

[HoosierCat]

Congrats to Andy and the missus!

/>https://mobile.twitter.com/jjdalton5/status/421407467764203521?screen_name=jjdalton5

[HoosierCat]

Wicky Wacky with some good advice on making Andy better.

/>http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20140113/SPT02/301130098/Doc-Let-s-give-Sam-Wyche-call

[gregcook68]

Wicky Wacky with some good advice on making Andy better.

/>http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20140113/SPT02/301130098/Doc-Let-s-give-Sam-Wyche-call

I started a thread with this link Hoosier called "Oh The Good Ole Days"

I don't care for Wyche's opinion on the run, but I do love his ideas on using Dalton to get his best.

Not sure if there is still bad blood with Brown and Wyche, but would love to see him in a role working with Dalton and QBs on the plays and routes when Jackson DOES throw the ball.

Just wouldn't want Wyche calling the plays!

[gregcook68]

Congrats to Andy and the missus!

/>https://mobile.twitter.com/jjdalton5/status/421407467764203521?screen_name=jjdalton5

Indeed! Their lives will change dramatically!

[gregcook68]

Just looking at QBRs for the end of the year.

Interesting that 4 QBs had higher ratings than Dalton and did NOT make the playoffs:

Romo

Fat Ben

Ryan

Bradford

Also there were 3 that finished behind Dalton that did:

Brady

Newton

Luck

Staford

And then there are these 2:

Flacco - 32

E. Manning - 35

I wonder what went on in the Giants and Ravens forum during the season and at the end??

[walzav29]

Correct me if i'm wrong. Andrew Whitworth called me a moron last night on twitter when I suggested that the ofense doesn't have Daltons back. I actually seen Whitworth talk positiviely about Dalton before the playoff game, but while the world has bashed Dalton since 4:30 January 5th up until now. I have not seen AJ green, Gio, Gresham, etc.... Come out and say they love the guy and he's the man. Has anyone else seen this? Maybe I'm wrong.

[gregcook68]

Correct me if i'm wrong. Andrew Whitworth called me a moron last night on twitter when I suggested that the ofense doesn't have Daltons back. I actually seen Whitworth talk positiviely about Dalton before the playoff game, but while the world has bashed Dalton since 4:30 January 5th up until now. I have not seen AJ green, Gio, Gresham, etc.... Come out and say they love the guy and he's the man. Has anyone else seen this? Maybe I'm wrong.

Maybe not in those exact words but I've heard them defend him.

[jjakq27]

Correct me if i'm wrong. Andrew Whitworth called me a moron last night on twitter when I suggested that the ofense doesn't have Daltons back. I actually seen Whitworth talk positiviely about Dalton before the playoff game, but while the world has bashed Dalton since 4:30 January 5th up until now. I have not seen AJ green, Gio, Gresham, etc.... Come out and say they love the guy and he's the man. Has anyone else seen this? Maybe I'm wrong.

Maybe not in those exact words but I've heard them defend him.

I think I've heard them say that Andy is the leader, etc. And I think there were some recent comments (maybe after Pittsburgh) where some players told people to shut up about Andy. Not sure if they have his back or not but it seems like they like him OK.

Walz, keep in mind that these guys are on vacation now. They probably want to get far away from football, especially in light of how the season ended. And this is a pretty quiet group too. Whit is the veteran guy of the team so he usually is the one to speak out.

[kingwilly]

Just looking at QBRs for the end of the year.

Interesting that 4 QBs had higher ratings than Dalton and did NOT make the playoffs:

Romo

Fat Ben

Ryan

Bradford

Also there were 3 that finished behind Dalton that did:

Brady

Newton

Luck

Staford

And then there are these 2:

Flacco - 32

E. Manning - 35

I wonder what went on in the Giants and Ravens forum during the season and at the end??

Stafford and the Lions did not make the playoffs, hence Schwartz out of a job.

There are only a few on that list that have the weapons or defense Andy had. Newton, Wilson and Kaepernick have comparable Ds. Few teams have the oline or weapons Dalton has.

I'm of the mind that the progress Andy made this year merits a year 4 to put it together. However there is no "maybe next year" after 2014. He needs to deliver when called upon. The big games, and playoffs. Really, making the playoffs is fine, but I can't stomach another squandered chance for this core group to be held back by Andy.

Hoping Hue charts the proper course and they get there.

[gregcook68]

Just looking at QBRs for the end of the year.

Interesting that 4 QBs had higher ratings than Dalton and did NOT make the playoffs:

Romo

Fat Ben

Ryan

Bradford

Also there were 3 that finished behind Dalton that did:

Brady

Newton

Luck

Staford

And then there are these 2:

Flacco - 32

E. Manning - 35

I wonder what went on in the Giants and Ravens forum during the season and at the end??

Stafford and the Lions did not make the playoffs, hence Schwartz out of a job.

There are only a few on that list that have the weapons or defense Andy had. Newton, Wilson and Kaepernick have comparable Ds. Few teams have the oline or weapons Dalton has.

I'm of the mind that the progress Andy made this year merits a year 4 to put it together. However there is no "maybe next year" after 2014. He needs to deliver when called upon. The big games, and playoffs. Really, making the playoffs is fine, but I can't stomach another squandered chance for this core group to be held back by Andy.

Hoping Hue charts the proper course and they get there.

Jury is still out on IF it is more Andy than it was OC. I agree that IF Hue stays the course he has verbally declared, and ANY of Wyche's ideas on Andy are instituted by Hue's team, and Dalton fails, then we know it's on Dalton.

However, IF we see the change in offensive philosophy busts the run game open and gives Dalton more time to throw with better timed routes by the receivers, and this team gets 'over the hump' then we know it was the offensive scheme more than Dalton.

Look at the Pats/Colts game for crying out loud! When is the last time you saw a playoff game where Brady not only had 0 TDs, but didn't attempt one???? Run, run, run! It appears to me that Coach B. is aware of his team's capabilities and he nor Brady are too 'diva like' to let Brady be a game manager instead of Tom Terrific.

Obviously, if they get behind, that philosophy will change, but with Denver's defense they may not ever get behind!

Both Dalton and Marvin's contracts are up this year! You are right! It's time to either crap or get off the pot!!

[princeton]

Dalton's QB game ratings in nationally televised games (Monday night, Sunday night, Thursday night, playoffs):

51.4 (2011 playoff game) loss

65.3 (2012) loss

56.4 (2012) loss

74.2 (2012) win

44.7 (2012 playoff game) loss

81.7 (2013) win

55.4 (2013) loss

86.4 (2013) loss

well, well below his career average. He's been a little better this year, but started pretty slow in those two 80+ games. As stated many times, the Bengals really need Dalton to start games strong because this is not an offense that can change a game's momentum.

team won only 2 out of the 8 games

update:

67.0 (2014 playoff game), loss.

now 2-7 in national games under Gruden/Dalton. Ugh.

personally I think that the offense plays nervous in all national games. Next year, we'll get to see just how much of that nervousness came from the offensive coordinator. Hopefully we'll get a lot of regular season national games so that we can see if we've actually improved under the new OC.

[HoosierCat]

Well, let's throw a few other numbers in just for kicks:

51.4 (2011 playoff game) loss D: 188/3/2/0

65.3 (2012) loss D: 122/4/3/0

56.4 (2012) loss D: 167/2/3/2

74.2 (2012) win D: 42/1/1/5

44.7 (2012 playoff game) loss D: 158/1/0/1

81.7 (2013) win D: 44/1/2/2

55.4 (2013) loss D: 157/1/3/1

86.4 (2013) loss D: 106/2/1/1

67.0 (2014 playoff game), loss D: 196/3/1/0

The numbers after the D: are how our vaunted defense has done in these "big games." Specifically they are rushing yards allowed/TDs allowed/sacks/turnovers. A couple things leap out at me.

First, not once in any of the losses has the defense held an opponent to less than 100 yards on the ground. Heck, they've only held then under 123 yards rushing twice in seven games. They are averaging -- averaging!!! -- more than 156 rushing yards allowed per loss. Now, I understand that in many cases the other team has had a lead and more freedom to run the ball, but they aren't just running the ball, they are plowing the D over at will.

The other things that pops out is turnovers. In seven losses the D has generated just 5 turnovers. They also average just 2 sacks a loss. Bottom line is that for the most part they aren't getting pressure, they aren't getting turnovers and they aren't stopping the run when the bright lights come on.

This isn't to blame the defense for the losses, but just to point out that the offense isn't the only part of the team that mostly didn't show up in these games. On the day Zim leaves for Minny, this is worth remembering.

[princeton]

not to geek out, but you're comparing quantities to percentages, which is rarely a great idea. It stands to reason that a team gives up a smaller quantity of rushing yards on the days that the quality of QB play is higher, since the other team likely has the ball more. And that's what your numbers suggest

however, a percentage number, like a QB rating, shouldn't be heavily influenced by whether the defense did well or poorly. It's all on the offense and so far, it's coming up very short.

[HoosierCat]

not to geek out, but you're comparing quantities to percentages, which is rarely a great idea. It stands to reason that a team gives up a smaller quantity of rushing yards on the days that the quality of QB play is higher, since the other team likely has the ball more. And that's what your numbers suggest

I was looking at wins and losses, not the QB rating, as a comparison point. I just left the rating in for convenience. But that said, what the heck, let's plug in plays per game and see what we get. They are after the dash and are Bengals/opponent.

51.4 (2011 playoff game) loss D: 188/3/2/0 – 61/55

65.3 (2012) loss D: 122/4/3/0 – 65/55

56.4 (2012) loss D: 167/2/3/2 – 49/67

74.2 (2012) win D: 42/1/1/5 – 63/52

44.7 (2012 playoff game) loss D: 158/1/0/1 – 46/77

81.7 (2013) win D: 44/1/2/2 – 79/53

55.4 (2013) loss D: 157/1/3/1 – 88/58

86.4 (2013) loss D: 106/2/1/1 – 66/61

67.0 (2014 playoff game), loss D: 196/3/1/0 – 76/56

There is actually surprisingly little variation in the number of plays the opponent runs, and no clear connection to rushing yards allowed. With the exception of the second playoff game against Houston and the middle 2012 game, opponents have run between 52 and 61 plays. Yet the spread in rushing yardage is huge, from 42 yards allowed on 52 plays to 196 on 56.

[kingwilly]

Just looking at QBRs for the end of the year.

Interesting that 4 QBs had higher ratings than Dalton and did NOT make the playoffs:

Romo

Fat Ben

Ryan

Bradford

Also there were 3 that finished behind Dalton that did:

Brady

Newton

Luck

Staford

And then there are these 2:

Flacco - 32

E. Manning - 35

I wonder what went on in the Giants and Ravens forum during the season and at the end??

Stafford and the Lions did not make the playoffs, hence Schwartz out of a job.

There are only a few on that list that have the weapons or defense Andy had. Newton, Wilson and Kaepernick have comparable Ds. Few teams have the oline or weapons Dalton has.

I'm of the mind that the progress Andy made this year merits a year 4 to put it together. However there is no "maybe next year" after 2014. He needs to deliver when called upon. The big games, and playoffs. Really, making the playoffs is fine, but I can't stomach another squandered chance for this core group to be held back by Andy.

Hoping Hue charts the proper course and they get there.

Jury is still out on IF it is more Andy than it was OC. I agree that IF Hue stays the course he has verbally declared, and ANY of Wyche's ideas on Andy are instituted by Hue's team, and Dalton fails, then we know it's on Dalton.

However, IF we see the change in offensive philosophy busts the run game open and gives Dalton more time to throw with better timed routes by the receivers, and this team gets 'over the hump' then we know it was the offensive scheme more than Dalton.

Look at the Pats/Colts game for crying out loud! When is the last time you saw a playoff game where Brady not only had 0 TDs, but didn't attempt one???? Run, run, run! It appears to me that Coach B. is aware of his team's capabilities and he nor Brady are too 'diva like' to let Brady be a game manager instead of Tom Terrific.

Obviously, if they get behind, that philosophy will change, but with Denver's defense they may not ever get behind!

Both Dalton and Marvin's contracts are up this year! You are right! It's time to either crap or get off the pot!!

What do Wyche's ideas have anything to do with Andy's progress?

Hue can keep some of the offense but must strive for better balance running the ball, so I'd say the changes will be pronounced.

If they are successful running and taking pressure off Andy, I wouldn't be so blog as to say Andy wasn't the issue. I do think the scheme he'd been asked to execute were not totally compatible with his abilities, however simply shielding Andy from too much pressure to carry the team means he's the undisputed franchise QB. I hope they draft a competent and talented QB who can push Andy. I think that's the only way he improves.

My concern is that Andy sputters and folks simply diamiss it, saying it's only year 1 in the Hue offense so give him more time.

[kingwilly]

Well, let's throw a few other numbers in just for kicks:

51.4 (2011 playoff game) loss D: 188/3/2/0

65.3 (2012) loss D: 122/4/3/0

56.4 (2012) loss D: 167/2/3/2

74.2 (2012) win D: 42/1/1/5

44.7 (2012 playoff game) loss D: 158/1/0/1

81.7 (2013) win D: 44/1/2/2

55.4 (2013) loss D: 157/1/3/1

86.4 (2013) loss D: 106/2/1/1

67.0 (2014 playoff game), loss D: 196/3/1/0

The numbers after the D: are how our vaunted defense has done in these "big games." Specifically they are rushing yards allowed/TDs allowed/sacks/turnovers. A couple things leap out at me.

First, not once in any of the losses has the defense held an opponent to less than 100 yards on the ground. Heck, they've only held then under 123 yards rushing twice in seven games. They are averaging -- averaging!!! -- more than 156 rushing yards allowed per loss. Now, I understand that in many cases the other team has had a lead and more freedom to run the ball, but they aren't just running the ball, they are plowing the D over at will.

The other things that pops out is turnovers. In seven losses the D has generated just 5 turnovers. They also average just 2 sacks a loss. Bottom line is that for the most part they aren't getting pressure, they aren't getting turnovers and they aren't stopping the run when the bright lights come on.

This isn't to blame the defense for the losses, but just to point out that the offense isn't the only part of the team that mostly didn't show up in these games. On the day Zim leaves for Minny, this is worth remembering.

I put those losses on the shoulders of the offense, not the D no matter how many yards an opponent rushed for.

The majority of those games were lost by total and utter offenisve debacles. Major failures and dreadful execution. Once ahead, all of those opponents ran ran ran. Why shouldn't they?

For whatever reason this offense has supremely struggled in those games, especially the playoffs. It starts with scheme then runs right through Dalton's right arm. After those two break down, then the rest of the blame can get handed out.

Now, can Hue incorporate more balance and remove Dalton from bad spots with scheme? I hope so. What they do with Collins and perhaps a FA running back may indicate just what direction they are heading.

[HoosierCat]

I put those losses on the shoulders of the offense, not the D no matter how many yards an opponent rushed for.

The majority of those games were lost by total and utter offenisve debacles. Major failures and dreadful execution. Once ahead, all of those opponents ran ran ran. Why shouldn't they?

Ah, another data point. Fair enough. Let's add in the pass/run breakdown (and just because, yards per rush):

51.4 (2011 playoff game) loss D: 188/3/2/0 – 61/55 – 20/35 (5.37)

65.3 (2012) loss D: 122/4/3/0 – 65/55 – 32/23 (5.3)

56.4 (2012) loss D: 167/2/3/2 – 49/67 – 38/29 (5.7)

74.2 (2012) win D: 42/1/1/5 – 63/52 – 33/19 (2.2)

44.7 (2012 playoff game) loss D: 158/1/0/1 – 46/77 – 38/39 (4.05)

81.7 (2013) win D: 44/1/2/2 – 79/53 – 37/16 (2.75)

55.4 (2013) loss D: 157/1/3/1 – 88/58 – 28/30 (5.2)

86.4 (2013) loss D: 106/2/1/1 – 66/61 – 25/36 (2.9)

67.0 (2014 playoff game), loss D: 196/3/1/0 – 76/56 – 16/40 (4.9)

Hmmm. OK, if you want the perfect example of a game where the Bengals got down big and the other team just ground it out to kill the clock, look no further than the last 2013 regular season game here. That's the loss to Pittsburgh where we were down 21 in no time flat. And indeed that's what Pitt did, running the ball 36 times (versus 25 passes) for less than 3 yards a carry.

But that game is the outlier. In most of the losses, the opposition ran either a balanced or pass-heavy offense. And even when they did go heavy on the run -- the first playoff game vs. Houston and the SD game just played -- they were still piling up huge yards on the ground. That isn't running the ball because they have the lead, that's running the ball because our defense can't stop them.

I agree that these games by and large featured terrible games from the offense. But they were also largely poor games for the D as well.

[Kazkal]

So what are the chances we trade Dalton to the Vikings for a 1st & 2nd round pick? Worked on Hue

I kidd I kidd

[jjakq27]

Kaz the Jedi mind trick only works so many times. Lol.

[TJJackson]

"this _IS_ the quarterback you are looking for"

[princeton]

hey good work HoosierCat.

my personal view is that Dalton has never even been average in any of those bigger games. But I can't argue that the defense has not performed to its higher standards