Sick this morning

[HairOnFire]

I think you can legitimately argue that a full stadium contributes to winning (see Seattle).

Ask yourself this. If you were a FA and you had your choice of playing for either fanbase which would you pick? The one with a fanbase so rabid it's noise level actually influences games? Or would you pick the one where the home crowd most closely resembles a bathtub ring left behind after half the water has been drained?

The relationship between the fans and the organization is broken on both sides. And right now no one seems interested in finding a solution.

Yeah, and that brings us neatly back to the point I made in my first post in this thread. It feels like we've passed the tipping point where this teams fanbase can be salvaged.

Nearly every response in this thread proves it...especially the all too predictable one about waiting for someone to die.

[HairOnFire]

The solution grows closer daily, and is inevitable - he won't live forever.....

LMAO. I wonder how long Mike will hang in there. He seems pretty damn resiliant. He's no quitter, that's for sure.

Have you seen him lately? He looks like one of those butter sculptures you see at state fairs.

Regardless, someday the old coot will croak and when it happens I'm certain the fine folks of Cincinnati will quickly demonstrate the class we've all come to expect whenever we hear the words Bengal, Bearcat, Musketeer, or street riot.

[HairOnFire]

I wouldn't say that. In fact, I'd venture to say that fans ripping up their season ticket/luxury box renewal forms has already paid dividends. It wasn't until Mike Brown saw that very fact that he axed Bratkowski. If the fans blindly supported the team with no pushback, MB would have kept the guy. It was quite clear that he fired Bratkowski very reluctantly

Making up stuff again? Or are you just delusional?

It seems to me if you're going to take credit for Brat being fired you should be able to show how doing so had some impact on ticket sales afterwards. (Cause and effect, right?)

And if there was no impact, and there clearly wasn't, then Mike had no motivation to appease fans. Far more likely he canned Brat at the request of Marvin OR as a last ditch attempt to appease Carson Palmer.

[HairOnFire]

i f**kin hate the jets.

As of yesterday afternoon I f**king hate the Bengals.

But I'll probably get over it.

I have not gotten over it yet. Still pissed.

Yeah, me too. Then again, I've been pissed off about alot of things lately.

[TJJackson]

.....better attendance......

.....better attendance......

Attendance is (for the 6,783rd time) not a good measure of Bengal fandom due to the degree to which Bengals ownership has flipped the bird (not a picture) at the local fans, and even the non fans (they too pay the stadium sales tax)

You want asses in seats so the team is supported on game day, and the home field advantage maximized......I completely understand this part of your point.

However

The lack of asses in seats is NOT the same as the fans saying "we don't support his team".....and I have explained why. You seem to be having trouble with this distinction.

[TJJackson]

Regardless, someday the old coot will croak and when it happens I'm certain the fine folks of Cincinnati will quickly demonstrate the class we've all come to expect whenever we hear the words Bengal, Bearcat, Musketeer, or street riot.

You're invited to the all day block party in my neighborhood on that day. There will be no riots, no punches thrown, no basketball players stomped on....just joy to the world

What you are calling proof of lack of fan support is proof only that the locals are unwilling to part with their hard earned dollars and valuable time in exchange for a seat in that stadium for a few hours. You are leaping to a conclusion here, over and over again - but I assure you, repeating your entirely unsupported claim does not make it any more true.

Hugz n kisses

[HairOnFire]

The lack of asses in seats is NOT the same as the fans saying "we don't support his team".....and I have explained why.

Actually, you've explained at length why you don't support this team.

If asked what you actually do to support the team I guess we could start with the way you pray for someone to die and then move quickly to the way your interests are confined to things you can get for free....and often illegally.

Beyond that?

[TJJackson]

Beyond that?

Plenty

Including (but not limited to) my nigh decade long presence here (the 05 date is from a second signup when the original one got lost in a crash or something)

You're simply providing a very poor definition of what it is to be a fan, and since your main point employs this very poor definition as its foundation, your argument crumbles to the ground for many of us

For example, from your point of view, my enjoyment of that certain day mentioned above is something you point to evidence that I am not a fan, but I (and many others locally) will point to that very same fact as evidence that I AM a Bengals fan.

This point of view is something that you seem to be unable to grasp, no matter how it is explained to you. I don't mean that as an insult, rather it simply is the case with this particular subject

[HairOnFire]

For example, from your point of view, my enjoyment of that certain day mentioned above is something you point to as speaking to why I am not a fan, but I (and many others locally) will point to that very same fact as an excellent example of why a AM a Bengals fan.

Frankly, that's pathetic, but I'm guessing you knew that already. What I don't understand is how someone like yourself could say something like that in one breath and in the next claim Bengal fans aren't the worst in the NFL? Of course YOU are.

Including (but not limited to) my nigh decade long presence here...

Again, a freebie for you.

Scroll up to post #133 where I challenged you to name anything that proved your fandom beyond rooting for Mike Browns death and activities you can do for free. In response you said you could name "plenty" but instead you just repeated the death wish and then listed how long you've been coming here for free.

Fail.

[TJJackson]

Frankly, that's pathetic

It's quite the opposite, actually.

What I don't understand is how someone like yourself could say something like that in one breath and in the next claim Bengal fans aren't the worst in the NFL?

And for my part, I don't understand how you come to that conclusion, when I (and others) have explained that the absence of than man from this franchise will (in our opinion) improve it greatly?

You can disagree, I'm Ok with that.

You claim Mike Brown is a great owner, and by extension his death will be a blow to this franchise, ergo a fan should want him to live as long as possible

However, I claim Mike Brown is among the very worst (perhaps THE very worst) professional sports franchise owners of all time, and further that he will never give up control til he passes on. If you can take those two items as givens for sake of argument, surely you can understand that the man's absence from the franchise would then by extension be a good thing?

I'm not saying you should agree with this - all I'm saying it shouldn't be hard to understand why our conclusions are opposite when the underlying given - Mike is either great or he sucks donkey nads - is opposite

If you can't take it as assumed simply as a thought exercise that Mike Brown is a big pile of stinking fail as an owner, then yes, I can certainly see why you can't understand the rest.

Of course YOU are.

Am not :-)

hair: am too

me: am not

Hair: am too

me: am not

Scottish: shaddup you wankers :-)

[TJJackson]

Again, a freebie for you.

Nope...time is money and I have spent a great deal of time here - including tonight

I've also had to deal with the likes of Pushy, Agreen/Gizzle, and the other Braintrust members. I lost brain cells every time I read one of their posts.

I've paid a very steep price to be a Bengals fan, and I could go on.......but.......

Scroll up to post #133 where I challenged you to name anything that proved your fandom beyond rooting for Mike Browns death and activities you can do for free. In response you said you could name "plenty" but instead you just repeated the death wish and then listed how long you've been coming here for free.

Fail.

Not Fail.

Again, you appear to be absolutely stuck on the concept that one must spend money to be a fan. Your argument doesn't work and your challenge is irrelevant because although money CAN be a part of it, it is not the absolute requirement you claim it to be.

oh, hey - I bought a football at Koch's Sporting Goods that I then had Bernard Scott sign during his rookie year. I think it cost 10 bucks. Am I a fan now? *laff*

[TJJackson]

Hoosier

I have determined that the Grinch analogy from earlier this thread is not nearly as good as the Charlie Brown field goal kicking scenario with Charlie playing the role of the typical Bengal Fan and Lucy playing the role of Mike Brown

Because, you know, it actually involves a football, and the look on her face that says she's not aware she's done anything wrong....priceless

replacement image

oh, and I gotta head home to slug down my Who Hash before Hamilton County confiscates it in the name of making a stadium bond payment or buying a new but unneeded scoreboard

[Sea Ray]

Ask yourself this. If you were a FA and you had your choice of playing for either fanbase which would you pick? The one with a fanbase so rabid it's noise level actually influences games? Or would you pick the one where the home crowd most closely resembles a bathtub ring left behind after half the water has been drained?

Those 57 games of consecutive sellouts really led to boon of FA signings, huh?

[cincyhokie]

Agreed. But all of the examples you have mentioned and the lack of attendance can be attributed to one factor. Winning games. And winning games is not the fans responsibility.

How many NFL teams have been eliminated from the playoffs already but have better attendance than the Bengals? Ten? And how many teams that have a poorer won/loss record than the Bengals can boast of better attendance? All of them, right?

I should have written "consistent winning".

We'll start with 2 years of a winning record in a row. I truely believe that if the Bengals keep winning that the attendance will rise. Of course we don't know for sure because back to back winning seasons is uncharted waters in the Mike Brown era. But from 2003-2009 the Bengals sold out their games. So we were totally awesome fans for awhile. To do this after having the worst 10 year stretch of any team in NFL HISTORY tells me that Cincinnati actually has some pretty good fans. No?

[cincyhokie]

Ask yourself this. If you were a FA and you had your choice of playing for either fanbase which would you pick? The one with a fanbase so rabid it's noise level actually influences games? Or would you pick the one where the home crowd most closely resembles a bathtub ring left behind after half the water has been drained?

Those 57 games of consecutive sellouts really led to boon of FA signings, huh?

+1

[Sea Ray]

I wouldn't say that. In fact, I'd venture to say that fans ripping up their season ticket/luxury box renewal forms has already paid dividends. It wasn't until Mike Brown saw that very fact that he axed Bratkowski. If the fans blindly supported the team with no pushback, MB would have kept the guy. It was quite clear that he fired Bratkowski very reluctantly

Making up stuff again? Or are you just delusional?

It seems to me if you're going to take credit for Brat being fired you should be able to show how doing so had some impact on ticket sales afterwards. (Cause and effect, right?)

And if there was no impact, and there clearly wasn't, then Mike had no motivation to appease fans. Far more likely he canned Brat at the request of Marvin OR as a last ditch attempt to appease Carson Palmer.

Making up things or just delusional? I could ask you the same thing. Fact is it's all speculation on our parts as that's what we do.

If it was Marvin's request, why didn't it happen when he signed his new deal in January? As for Palmer, I don't see Gruden as being the best Palmer magnet he could have found

[HairOnFire]

You can disagree, I'm Ok with that.

Good for you.

You claim Mike Brown is a great owner, and by extension his death will be a blow to this franchise, ergo a fan should want him to live as long as possible.

And now we've reached the now predictable part of the thread where you offer nothing but lies and strawman arguments. What seems odd, at least to me, is how someone like you can offer death wishes and blatant lies, but some people get angry and offended by what I write. Go figure, huh?

I think we're done here.

[TJJackson]

And now we've reached the now predictable part of the thread where you offer nothing but lies and strawman arguments

Say what?

What straw man argument(s)?

What lie(s)?

But if indeed you're going to go the rhetoric route rather than argue/discus the actual subject matter, then yeah, I guess we are.........

It is not a lie that I feel that this franchise will be much better off with him gone

It is not a lie that I feel he will not leave short of passing on

It is not a lie that I believe that you think his is a good GM and owner

*sigh*

back to my who hash

[HairOnFire]

Agreed. But all of the examples you have mentioned and the lack of attendance can be attributed to one factor. Winning games. And winning games is not the fans responsibility.

How many NFL teams have been eliminated from the playoffs already but have better attendance than the Bengals? Ten? And how many teams that have a poorer won/loss record than the Bengals can boast of better attendance? All of them, right?

I should have written "consistent winning".

In retrospect you shouldn't have written anything at all. Because all you're doing is kicking the excuse can down the road in the same way that SeaRay and TJ have done. The old give it two more years of this or that and I'll start to care routine, right?

But from 2003-2009 the Bengals sold out their games. So we were totally awesome fans for awhile.

Right. And now we're not. Now we're the worst in the NFL in most measurable ways, but according to you and others we're a sleeping giant just waiting to be roused from our slumber. Or maybe we're not really a football town at all.

Maybe we're zoo people?

[HairOnFire]

Fact is it's all speculation on our parts as that's what we do.

Fact is you didn't offer speculation. You offered an empty unprovable claim as fact, and then you repeated and expounded on it until it collapsed.

As for me, I can point to statistics ranking the Bengals dead last in attendance. Or I could point to the 2nd smallest crowd ever to attend a game at PBS at last weeks critically important game. Or I could simply point to the television screen during any Bengal home game. Or I could point to the things you and TJ have written in this very thread.

I don't have to speculate. You're my proof.

[cincyhokie]

In retrospect you shouldn't have written anything at all. Because all you're doing is kicking the excuse can down the road in the same way that SeaRay and TJ have done. The old give it two more years of this or that and I'll start to care routine, right?

No, seriously let's give this back to back winning season thing a chance. It's uncharted waters for both the fans and Mike Brown. The truth is we just don't know and in this case we have no history to base it off of.

Honestly, I have a hard time getting all steamed about people not going to games. They can spend their money any way they choose. I used to have season tickets, now I have a kid. I'll end up going to 2-3 games a year. This year I made it to the Buffalo game.

You can go to the games too. Do you go to the games? What does that make you if you don't go?

[cincyhokie]

Right. And now we're not. Now we're the worst in the NFL in most measurable ways, but according to you and others we're a sleeping giant just waiting to be roused from our slumber. Or maybe we're not really a football town at all.

So it's a good match. The worst fans in so many measurable ways paired up with the worst owner in the NFL in so many measurable ways. Sleeping giant? Maybe. I have a hard time thinking that if this team were to consistently win people wouldn't sell out the stadium like 2003-2009.

This year has been an exception with the attendance with a winning record. Not the rule.

[volcom69]

I do think its going to take some time to get fans back in the stand, but if they start winning i think they will show again. I would love to go, but i live in PA so its alittle hard for me to go, but im not going to blame those who cant afford to go. I do think it will take time, but i think they will come back, winning cures all!

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

As for me, I can point to statistics ranking the Bengals dead last in attendance. Or I could point to the 2nd smallest crowd ever to attend a game at PBS at last weeks critically important game. Or I could simply point to the television screen during any Bengal home game. Or I could point to the things you and TJ have written in this very thread.

I'd hope you realize that attendance typically lags performance by a year due to season ticket sales. The team was terrible last year, dealt with the Palmer thing all offseason, sat through a lockout, and did a pretty significant remodel of the team. Please tell me you're shocked that season ticket sales suffered in that environment. Single-game sales are never enough to offset a situation that craptacular.

I realize this "fans are arseholes because they're picking on my hero" is your broken record du jour, but Hokie et al are right. This team has been supported by the fans in the past to a level that it rarely deserved. It's the same people, and no mass brain surgery was involved. Given some success on the field this year, two new stars to anchor the offense, and the certainty of a full season next year - I'd bet on 8 sellouts in 2012.

When that happens, I'll wait for you to praise the local fans who support the team.

[Sea Ray]

Fact is it's all speculation on our parts as that's what we do.

Fact is you didn't offer speculation. You offered an empty unprovable claim as fact, and then you repeated and expounded on it until it collapsed.

As for me, I can point to statistics ranking the Bengals dead last in attendance. Or I could point to the 2nd smallest crowd ever to attend a game at PBS at last weeks critically important game. Or I could simply point to the television screen during any Bengal home game. Or I could point to the things you and TJ have written in this very thread.

I don't have to speculate. You're my proof.

You're so clueless you can't even follow the subject matter. I was speculating on what caused MB to fire Bratkowski when he did and that has nothing to do with attendance this year. Remember Bratkowski? He was the team's offensive coordinator before Jay Gruden was hired. If you really concentrate I think you'll remember him. If not I'll give you more clues later