Carson Palmer Thread

[TJJackson]

I dont believe a NFL players worth increases as he idles.

Depends on the player, his age, surrounding circumstances, and....(wait for it)....fluctuations in the marketplace.

One player's abilities might decrease far more rapidly than anothers while idle - but for each player, idle = regression

As far as the marketplace, your logical fallacy here is assuming the market fluctuations will IMPROVE his value in the future, when in fact those fluctuations can go either way. I'd say the market is quite good now - Seattle? San Fran? Phoenix? etc?. Market fluctuations can lower the value of a given commodity. The price is high now, and by now I mean this season. Sell high, buy low. I think Warren Buffet may have said that once.

From once idled Mike Vick to still idled Robert Quinn to momentarily idled Ben Rapistberger....NFL teams are no strangers to welcoming back players who have been idled for all manner of reasons.

Mike Vick's value on return was not as great.....few if any suitors 'greeted' him on his return from prison

Rapistberger is still not welcome to many fans in his own city, and he was not idle an entire season, and got in the entire camp and preseason. he essnetially was idle only 4 weeks. Terrible choice of an example to support your point.

Robert Quinn is only idle because it is the offseason. True for all players. Idle = not playing/practicing while others are. Another poor example, worse than the one before.

I think a 2 would be on the low end of what they could get for Palmer.

Fair enough. So to recap, you think Palmer is worth a 1st and a 3rd, but may have to settle for a 2nd....which you would settle for. Furthermore, despite your high opinion of Palmer you can envision no scenario where Palmers value might be higher next year, presumably under more normal market conditions, than that single 2nd round pick you'd settle for this year.

Poop, I say.

And poop you may. Over on the newspaper over there, if you don't mind? New carpet and all.

The market will dictate the price. If a 2 is the best we can get, then so be it. However, I believe a 1 and a 3 (or better) will come before the regular season starts, whenever that is. At some point you have to poop or get off the pot. I think Confucius said that.

[HairOnFire]

As far as the marketplace, your logical fallacy here is assuming the market fluctuations will IMPROVE his value in the future, when in fact those fluctuations can go either way.

Yeah, but judging changing market conditions is what big people get paid for. And when you consider what current market conditions are it's a good bet things will be better next year.

I'd say the market is quite good now - Seattle? San Fran? Phoenix? etc?. Market fluctuations can lower the value of a given commodity.

Need I remind you that all of those teams, and several others, were in the market for a new QB the year prior? In fact, from year to year to year many of the same teams go an an annual search for new QB's, including some who just spent high picks on rookie QB's who aren't ready to play.

Bark all you want about how strong the market is now but there's every reason to believe that it will be just as strong next year.

At some point you have to poop or get off the pot. I think Confucius said that.

Some historians claim he ate far too much bread.

[HoosierCat]

King: Marvin Lewis says Palmer won't be back.

Carson Palmer is serious about not going back to Cincinnati. I've heard Marvin Lewis is acknowledging to people he knows in football that Palmer won't be back in Cincinnati, and the Bengals are looking into all of the top quarterback prospects. "Marvin knows how stubborn Carson is, and he thinks no matter what happens, the guy won't change his mind,'' said one club executive. I believe that. But that doesn't mean the Bengals will deal him either.

Palmer's not Carl Pickens or Corey Dillon, a disaffected star who was divisive in the locker room. He's been a classy franchise quarterback since stepping on campus in 2003. He's the team's billboard, though he's had a couple of shaky years in a row. The Bengals don't have a history of responding well to threats. What makes this interesting, though, is that Cincinnati would be able to get something decent for Palmer in trade. He's 31. He's healthy. He'd love to play in California (you listening, Jim Harbaugh?) and I'm sure would settle for Arizona.

If both San Francisco and Arizona pass on a rookie high in the draft April 28, or pass on trading for Kevin Kolb of the Eagles, they'd be my leaders in the clubhouse -- joined by Minnesota -- in the race for Palmer. All of that could all be moot, of course, because of Bengals owner Mike Brown. He doesn't care much for, nor is affected by, a player holding him hostage, never mind a player Brown has grown to like a lot as a man.

[HoosierCat]

Report: Dolphins front office has hots for Palmer.

So Palmer is the player folks in the Dolphins organization would love on a Dolphins jersey.

None of this is my opinion. It’s the opinion of folks within the Miami organization who have done the work. This comes from folks who have watched the films or crunched the numbers or done the evaluations or talked to the men who did.

[bwillycuse]

Does Palmer have the power to veto a trade?

If not - send him somewhere cold please. Though Dolphins would work - they get rain and mud and some fairly uncomfortably hot games.

I bet the Dolphins see Palmer's experience with Chad as a plus. But Palmer really cant handle the big egos. So when Marshall throws him under the bus, Palmer will cry.

Just file your retirement papers already Carson.

[ArmyBengal]

All the reports do is leave me firmly planted with the thought of Palmer's value being high at this point in time.

Could it remain high should the team wait another season ?? I suppose, but that would be nothing more than a guess.

The Bengals KNOW FOR A FACT teams would be interested THIS year and if they were to desire, could open a bidding war.

F*cking Mike Brown...

[Kazkal]

Does Palmer have the power to veto a trade?

If not - send him somewhere cold please. Though Dolphins would work - they get rain and mud and some fairly uncomfortably hot games.

I bet the Dolphins see Palmer's experience with Chad as a plus. But Palmer really cant handle the big egos. So when Marshall throws him under the bus, Palmer will cry.

Just file your retirement papers already Carson.

Well Sending him to the East Coast would be worst thing could do since he wanted to be closer to his family.

I bet the Dolphins see Palmer's experience with Chad as a plus. But Palmer really cant handle the big egos. So when Marshall throws him under the bus, Palmer will cry.

If Kyle Orten could throw to B.Marshall 22 times in a game so can Carson.

[cincyhokie]

All the reports do is leave me firmly planted with the thought of Palmer's value being high at this point in time.

Could it remain high should the team wait another season ?? I suppose, but that would be nothing more than a guess.

The Bengals KNOW FOR A FACT teams would be interested THIS year and if they were to desire, could open a bidding war.

F*cking Mike Brown...

Wait, wait...This hard nose stance is Mike Brown's first step in really changing things to make the Bengals a consistent winner. This is the beginning of a new dawn! Screw draft picks! This 4-12 team doesn't need extra picks, let alone a very possible 2011 extra first round pick.

Speaking of "tilting at windmills". Ol' Mikey is consisently fighting the want to make things work on his own...and be successful like his Dad...

[ArmyBengal]

The funny (see pathetic) thing is, everytime you listen to the guys on NFL Network, ESPN, or name your sports television preference and they bring up the Palmer situation, they laugh out loud when speaking of the stance of Mike Brown and his unwillingness to even entertain a trade. Other teams would at least take calls and see what's out there to be had.

That's not to say it's not happening out of the media spotlight, but I'm doubtful.

[cincyhokie]

The funny (see pathetic) thing is, everytime you listen to the guys on NFL Network, ESPN, or name your sports television preference and they bring up the Palmer situation, they laugh out loud when speaking of the stance of Mike Brown and his unwillingness to even entertain a trade. Other teams would at least take calls and see what's out there to be had.

That's not to say it's not happening out of the media spotlight, but I'm doubtful.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that has noticed that too. The debate on this topic has, in my mind, really strayed from the simplicity of the matter. It's really not complicated. At all.

Who's to say Palmer doesn't get traded? He might. Who's to say that MB is just staying silent right now to up Palmer's worth? There's always a chance. Should be interesting to see what happens when the CBA is reached.

[cincyhokie]

Mike Brown reiterates his stance.

/>http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20110321/SPT02/103220338/Brown-again-No-trade-Palmer?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|News

NEW ORLEANS - For those who hoped that Bengals president Mike Brown might have a change of heart regarding quarterback Carson Palmer's request for a trade, he hasn't.

Speaking for the first time about Palmer since Jan. 24, the day after Palmer's trade demands were made public, Brown said Monday at the league's annual meetings that he is still hopeful that Palmer would reconsider and play for the Bengals.

"I haven't talked to any other team about him and I have no plans to trade him," Brown said.

Friends and acquaintances of Palmer have said that if he is not traded, he will retire after eight seasons.

Many observers wonder why a team would keep a player who does not want to play for it any longer, especially if you are able to get a high draft pick for a player of Palmer's caliber.

Brown, though, said he will not be swayed even by a first-round draft pick.

"I've seen any number of players who at one point did not want to re-enlist come back and come back and be quite happy about it," Brown said. "As far as getting value, I don't see any opportunity to get what I consider to be value. Having said that, it doesn't make sense to look to trade. It only makes sense to wait and hope Carson comes around."

Gee, Mr. Brown, I sure do hope Carson decides to change his mind too. Shucks, what would we do without him?

[BengalszoneBilly]

Mike Brown reiterates his stance.

/>http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20110321/SPT02/103220338/Brown-again-No-trade-Palmer?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|News

NEW ORLEANS - For those who hoped that Bengals president Mike Brown might have a change of heart regarding quarterback Carson Palmer's request for a trade, he hasn't.

Speaking for the first time about Palmer since Jan. 24, the day after Palmer's trade demands were made public, Brown said Monday at the league's annual meetings that he is still hopeful that Palmer would reconsider and play for the Bengals.

"I haven't talked to any other team about him and I have no plans to trade him," Brown said.

Friends and acquaintances of Palmer have said that if he is not traded, he will retire after eight seasons.

Many observers wonder why a team would keep a player who does not want to play for it any longer, especially if you are able to get a high draft pick for a player of Palmer's caliber.

Brown, though, said he will not be swayed even by a first-round draft pick.

"I've seen any number of players who at one point did not want to re-enlist come back and come back and be quite happy about it," Brown said. "As far as getting value, I don't see any opportunity to get what I consider to be value. Having said that, it doesn't make sense to look to trade. It only makes sense to wait and hope Carson comes around."

Unf**kingreal. Well hope in one hand Mikie and s**t in the other and see which on fills up first you pathetic moron!

[alleycat]

It only makes sense to wait and hope Carson comes around."

I've found myself actually supporting MB through this whole thing, in part because I think CP is an asswipe and that stuff can't be tolerated. But that approach only makes sense if you're doing it because of principle, and to show the rest of the world you mean business and you won't bend. But in reality, you must also know that CP's stance has essentially painted a yellow stripe down his own back, and he's now useless to the team. Really, how can he ever come back here and be a leader? He never really had that role to begin with, and now...

But to hear MB express his desire that Carson comes back around... Well, that just baffles me. Either you bury him in the dirt or you trade him. But I don't know how you can take him back at this point. The cost of doing that (putting your stock in a loser) seems even greater to the team as a whole than caving to whiners...

Now I'm confused, and starting to think maybe we SHOULD get whatever we can for him...

[F.Cleveland]

It only makes sense to wait and hope Carson comes around."

I've found myself actually supporting MB through this whole thing, in part because I think CP is an asswipe and that stuff can't be tolerated. But that approach only makes sense if you're doing it because of principle, and to show the rest of the world you mean business and you won't bend. But in reality, you must also know that CP's stance has essentially painted a yellow stripe down his own back, and he's now useless to the team. Really, how can he ever come back here and be a leader? He never really had that role to begin with, and now...

But to hear MB express his desire that Carson comes back around... Well, that just baffles me. Either you bury him in the dirt or you trade him. But I don't know how you can take him back at this point. The cost of doing that (putting your stock in a loser) seems even greater to the team as a whole than caving to whiners...

Now I'm confused, and starting to think maybe we SHOULD get whatever we can for him...

MB is a skillful negotiator and lawyer. Until he has solid offers on the table it makes no sense to say he will trade him. He has all the leverage if he takes the stance that it will take a pot of gold to pry CP away. I'm not saying they will trade him for sure, but everyone needs to calm down with the MB is an idiot theme because he has done everything possible to maintain the highest leverage possible in the event that he would actually consider trading. There is no sense in tipping your hand to Carson, his agent, or the rest of the league until you intend to play your cards.

[HoosierCat]

In all fairness to Brown, let's remember that even if he wanted to trade Carson, he can't. No CBA, no trades. At this point, "no we won't trade him" is basically the default position. Simply put, Mike's hands are tied.

The question is, if things change, does Mike? Based on his remarks yesterday, I think the answer is, probably not, because his idea of "value" is likely far beyond anything any team might offer. After all, he turned down two first round picks for Chad; he'd probably want something like a team's entire draft for two years running for Carson.

All that said, it also appears that things are still a bit fluid. The rumor mill has been full of allegations for weeks that Brown is the roadblock, while Marvin and Katie are all for moving on, and more and more that's looking like the case. So I guess we'll see.

Bottom line: we need a new CBA to get done. Until then, the Palmer mess isn't going to be resolved.

[ArmyBengal]

Ok, I'll ask...

What good is served by not saying you would listen to offers from the teams that are clearly QB needy ??

That's NOT what Brown is saying here. He said he doesn't see where he can get what "HE" considers value. By saying that, he's not being some sly fox who is holding the cards that no one else is aware of. I don't believe he holds any leverage at all. He can trade Carson or not. If Brown keeps the hard road and says he won't trade Palmer, then drafts a QB at #4 (God forbid) only to see Carson come back, then what ?? Do we really need to be paying the QB position that much money ??

Even with a rookie pay scale, which is not certain, the #4 pick is going to cost this team. Couple that with the "QB premium" that draft picks get and this situation is just stupid. What people are forgeting is Mike Brown CAN'T FORCE Palmer to retire. Palmer can come back whenever he chooses.

With that thought in mind, why the hell would an owner be willing to wait and see what happens as opposed to getting picks to help his team in the "hopes" this quitting, whining, b*tch of a QB comes back to (lead?) his team ?? Sing Mike Brown's praises if you choose, I think this just further proves everything most people hate about the man and why this franchise continues to be a laughingstock.

[HoosierCat]

With that thought in mind, why the hell would an owner be willing to wait and see what happens as opposed to getting picks to help his team in the "hopes" this quitting, whining, b*tch of a QB comes back to (lead?) his team ?? Sing Mike Brown's praises if you choose, I think this just further proves everything most people hate about the man and why this franchise continues to be a laughingstock.

I don't think I'm singing Mike's praises, I just think he doesn't have much choice at the moment. To answer your question, I suspect that Mike still believes Carson could be an effective QB, and being adamant about not trading him keeps maximum pressure on him to return if he wants to play this year.

I agree with you that I don't see any scenario in which Palmer returns that doesn't end in disaster, but absent a CBA Mike has little choice but to hope that Carson relents and that you and I are wrong that he wouldn't be an effective leader.

[ArmyBengal]

I was insinuating you specifically were singing his praises, rather a general statement and I agree that absent a CBA nothing will get done.

My contention still remains that while I feel Carson could lead the 49er's or Seahawks to the playoffs next year, he can't lead the Bengals.

That boat has sailed with the recent happenings. He simply has no credibility and without credibility, there's no leadership.

I also don't think there's any pressure on Carson to play next year. He already says trade me or I retire. I believe his mind is made up and Mike Brown's "I have no plans to trade Palmer" aren't putting pressure on him. Carson may be disappointed that he won't be playing next year if that is the case, but for him, I honestly believe that disappointment is less than how he feels about returning to the Bengals.

And again, I don't blame "how he feels", but rather the way this has played out.

[F.Cleveland]

Ok, I'll ask...

What good is served by not saying you would listen to offers from the teams that are clearly QB needy ??

That's NOT what Brown is saying here. He said he doesn't see where he can get what "HE" considers value. By saying that, he's not being some sly fox who is holding the cards that no one else is aware of. I don't believe he holds any leverage at all. He can trade Carson or not. If Brown keeps the hard road and says he won't trade Palmer, then drafts a QB at #4 (God forbid) only to see Carson come back, then what ?? Do we really need to be paying the QB position that much money ??

Even with a rookie pay scale, which is not certain, the #4 pick is going to cost this team. Couple that with the "QB premium" that draft picks get and this situation is just stupid. What people are forgeting is Mike Brown CAN'T FORCE Palmer to retire. Palmer can come back whenever he chooses.

With that thought in mind, why the hell would an owner be willing to wait and see what happens as opposed to getting picks to help his team in the "hopes" this quitting, whining, b*tch of a QB comes back to (lead?) his team ?? Sing Mike Brown's praises if you choose, I think this just further proves everything most people hate about the man and why this franchise continues to be a laughingstock.

Saying you would take offers for him lets his agent play that card to the media. It gives bidding teams leverage because they can wait to see what the best offer is and offer just a little more. If Carson's agent has the ability to say an offer is fair and MB is being spiteful then we would all be pissed. If MB can quietly listen to offers and all the while say he's not interested because of a percieved value and his principals it gives him the ability to be as clean as possible once it all unfolds. I would agree that if he doesn't trade him it will look bad, but not as bad as a long media war about what MB percieves as value over what we perceive as value. Even the biggest Carson haters would be mad if they knew MB was willing to trade but didn't think the offeres were good enough. MB benefits the most if he can deny even considering the desire to trade. Also, like was said earlier, even if he wanted to talk trades he can't until the CBA gets ironed out.

As to what happens if Carson comes back, I would say there is a zero % chance we draft a QB with the #4. Mb knows Carson hs this card to play and my guess would be that round 2 is the more likely choice. That way even if Carson comes back, anyone we draft will need a year or two to be ready anyhow. Actually, that may be the best case scenario because Carson would have an incentive to help make that QB as ready as possible so MB would feel comfortable trading him.

I freely admit MB does some things poorly and some things well. His ability to judge leverage and the need for patience when it benefits him are not things he does poorly.

[ArmyBengal]

That's just it though, IF the offer were good enough, I believe there would be thought to a trade, but Brown has already said he doesn't think the value is there without so much as a phone call. He's saying that before ANYTHING with the CBA comes to an end (if it does). The media is already bashing the sh*t out of Mike Brown or maybe you miss the daily poking fun of our organization every time the situation is brought up.

The Eagles are listening to trades for Kolb without a CBA in place. Heck they have had offers of a first round pick and nothing is ironed out whatsoever. What makes this situation any different. It's the Eagles that are gauging the market for their player and once things are settled with the CBA, they will know exactly where they stand. The Bengals ?? Not so much...

I also disagree with the thought that there is zero chance the draft a QB at #4. The QB's they have brought in are all thought to go in the first round and unless they trade down, I believe that thought is very real considering how Mike Brown views not only the draft, but the QB position. These are all indicators and regardless that I think it would be the stupidest thing for them to do, the chances of it happening I would put at at least 50%.

I don't see what incentive Carson has to do anything when he has already put his back against the wall. You can't lead from the rear and I can't see any of the players wanting to following someone playing for himself and his chance to leave them.

I'm not saying this is exactly how things are going to play out, but rather what we've seen to this point and again, Mike Brown is being as crafty as Palmer is about not saying what the issue is and speaking for himself as opposed to hearing everything secondhand from his realtor, gardener, or childhood coach.

[HoosierCat]

And again, I don't blame "how he feels", but rather the way this has played out.

Same here. The CBA mess has made the whole thing impossible to resolve and guaranteed that it remains a festering open wound all through the offseason.

[ArmyBengal]

I just don't see how he's suppose to lead this team when his goal is to not be a part of this team.

C'mon Mike Brown that's just stupid.

They were just talking about the situation again on ESPN and how Mike Brown doesn't respond to threats. I think that's part of the problem. Stop viewing this as something that's a blow to your ego and treat it the way most other teams would. That being, make the move to improve your team to the best of your ability and move on from someone that has no desire to help your organization in any way.

Mike Brown can't force Palmer to retire as it seems to be spoken about. He can tell him he's not going to trade him and then wait for his decision.

I think that decision has already been made, as most do and Mike Brown is being an idiot once again.

[COB]

Mike is punishing the whole team by not trading Carson. Hopefully he's just setting himself up in the best place possible from which to negotiate. Because if he's really into the wait and see thing, what does he do about the qb spot? Don't draft or trade in the hopes Carson comes around, then pack up Georgetown and slap your forehead when you discover you have no starting quarterback?

Punishing the whole team.

[F.Cleveland]

Mike is punishing the whole team by not trading Carson. Hopefully he's just setting himself up in the best place possible from which to negotiate. Because if he's really into the wait and see thing, what does he do about the qb spot? Don't draft or trade in the hopes Carson comes around, then pack up Georgetown and slap your forehead when you discover you have no starting quarterback?

Punishing the whole team.

The whole issue with Carson is that there is no back-up plan. We would have drafted a QB this year anyway. Carson is 31 and you don't wait another 5 years to draft his replacement. If you get lucky and get someon in the lower rounds that develops into a great prospect ala Kolb then you have trade bait at worst and his replacment at best. The only question is which round and neither of the QB's rated as possabilities at #4 are NFL ready. Even if you think they are the answer, they aren't going to play from day one. The only QB that fit into that category decided to return to college.

Donovan McNabb can be had for probably a 3rd or Chad and some combination of a pick coming back to us. Getting someone to occupy the QB position while a youngster learns will not an impossible task. True, none of them will be the future but at this point neither is Carson.

[HairOnFire]

I'm not saying they will trade him for sure, but everyone needs to calm down with the MB is an idiot theme because he has done everything possible to maintain the highest leverage possible in the event that he would actually consider trading. There is no sense in tipping your hand to Carson, his agent, or the rest of the league until you intend to play your cards.

And there it is.

Props.