Carson Palmer Thread

[HairOnFire]

So trade Palmer. Get picks.

Picks? Plural?

Mike Lombardi was just asked what the most likely trade Palmer scenario might look like. Lombardi laughed, spoke about how hard Mike Brown is, and then painted this scenario. No trade offers before the draft. Instead, the 49'ers watch the Bengals make their pick at #4 and then they make their own pick at #7. Only then do they call and offer the Bengals a 2nd round pick. Singular.

You rolling over for that?

[HoosierCat]

You rolling over for that?

No. I'm already on record stating Palmer would bring at least a first and probably more, though given the mess with the CBA we are likely talking about picks in 2012, not this year.

Palmer has plenty of trade value and if they put him on the block they would get multiple teams bidding on him. I don't see any danger of some kind of "all they can get is a third round pick" type scenario.

Move him. You'll get a first, minimum. Probably a second or third too. And if Mikey squeezes maybe a player too (think a QB who's actually taken an NFL snap).

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

Spite has nothing to do with it. By all accounts Mike Brown's primary motivation for refusing a trade is to force Carson Palmer, the Bengals highest paid player and a starter at their most critical position, to return to the Bengals. If successful I'd say it would be a rather neat demonstration of attempting to maximize an asset, and a far easier strategy to defend than one based upon trading Palmer under fire sale conditions.

Except that said asset's value is tied up in its vested interest to work for you. It may rankle one's sensibilities of how contracts should work, but Carson isn't looking like he's worth $12M (and the opportunity cost of a high pick) next year if he does want to play. If he doesn't want to play - in what universe does this work out well? And that's assuming that we believe that Palmer's bluffing.

Also, that brings up a necessary point, namely an appraisal of the asset in question. At his salary and level of play last year, I can't believe anybody would take him for free. If somebody gave me a 1st rounder for Carson, I'm absolutely jumping on that.

Furthermore, most trade Palmer scenarios are linked to finding an immediate replacment in the draft, and a seemingly high number of those rants are based upon knowingly overdrafting a rookie QB using the "QB Trumps All" strategy....thereby minimizing a 2nd important asset.

I get that, sure. Last thing a 4-12 team needs is to have to invest the high pick in a surprise problem. But big picture - how long do you keep rolling the 'make Carson stay in Cinci' card? Through 2014, when his contract ends? Because otherwise, you're still drafting a QB this year, like it or not. So that aspect doesn't play in the decision, it's essentially a given.

No, my intent is to ignore her. Completely. Her concerns are not mine, nor should they concern Mike Brown. They're the concern of Carson Palmer, I admit, but that's a personal matter for him to deal with. But point blank, Carson's wife has no contract with the Bengals and thus...no seat at the table.

Ah, but you're the one passing up the value of a draft pick to spite her. So if your desire is to ignore her, you're doing a poor job. Myself, I don't know anything about her, but I bet she's hot and high maintenance.

True, but I mentioned salary specifically because, prior to Palmer's threat to retire, any realistic scenario involving the Bengals attempting to find a replacement for Palmer, as they claim was already being debated, likely involved paying Palmer until a rookie was sufficiently groomed....to the tune of 11.5 million per. For example, any ideal scenario involving Cam Newton includes letting him learn for a year or more.

Third option would be to sign a cheap vet and let Cam study under him. Last thing I want is Cam Newton around the bad influences of 1) a disgruntled Palmer, and 2) OchoDoucho. I'd basically punt the QB position for 2011, let the rookie learn under...somebody (LeFevour? Art Schlichter?), and regroup for 2012.

Passive aggressive hardball to the death?

At least it's more entertaining than the 2010 season.

[membengal]

What still gets me is this...Palmer signed the f**kin' contract. Willingly. Gladly. Without a second thought. That means something. It wasn't signed-until-things-got-f**kin-hard. It doesn't work that way. He wants out? Mothballs is his way out. With a dishonorable discharge for being a quitter.

He was hyped up from the 2005 season and thought his franchise had turned things around,Five years later 4 Losing Seasons 1 winning.

keep cap space open to accommodate such a move.

-Since when does mike spend up to the cap? more so with us not resigning Joseph or Cedric we'll have plenty of cap space?

Re: the bolded part, kaz....so? So what? I don't care the reasons WHY he signed it. But he signed it. He owned that decision, he accepted the signing bonus, he committed himself on the dotted line to be this team's leader at qb for the duration of that deal. That he wants out now is as douch-y a move as I have ever seen, and reveals him to be the worst kind of coward. He. signed. a. contract. End of story. He could have said no and taken free agency at first chance, and I wouldn't have said anything bad about it. His call. But instead, he signed on. That he quits when things get hard? As contemptible as anything I have ever seen in my years of Bengal fandom, and that includes the end of the Carl Pickens and Corey Dillon eras.

[TJJackson]

By all accounts Mike Brown's primary motivation for refusing a trade is to force Carson Palmer, the Bengals highest paid player and a starter at their most critical position, to return to the Bengals. If successful I'd say it would be a rather neat demonstration of attempting to maximize an asset

If successful

I'll take the bird in the hand (when it becomes possible for such offers to be made, ie when the CBA is done) over the two in the bush

Especially at these odds

[BengalByTheBay]

What still gets me is this...Palmer signed the f**kin' contract. Willingly. Gladly. Without a second thought. That means something. It wasn't signed-until-things-got-f**kin-hard. It doesn't work that way. He wants out? Mothballs is his way out. With a dishonorable discharge for being a quitter.

He was hyped up from the 2005 season and thought his franchise had turned things around,Five years later 4 Losing Seasons 1 winning.

keep cap space open to accommodate such a move.

-Since when does mike spend up to the cap? more so with us not resigning Joseph or Cedric we'll have plenty of cap space?

Re: the bolded part, kaz....so? So what? I don't care the reasons WHY he signed it. But he signed it. He owned that decision, he accepted the signing bonus, he committed himself on the dotted line to be this team's leader at qb for the duration of that deal. That he wants out now is as douch-y a move as I have ever seen, and reveals him to be the worst kind of coward. He. signed. a. contract. End of story. He could have said no and taken free agency at first chance, and I wouldn't have said anything bad about it. His call. But instead, he signed on. That he quits when things get hard? As contemptible as anything I have ever seen in my years of Bengal fandom, and that includes the end of the Carl Pickens and Corey Dillon eras.

Yup. Other than the degree of media access to them, I just don't see this as THAT much different than Chad's off-season tantrum of a couple of years ago. While Chad is certainly a much more annoying personality, Carson is more disappointing to me because this just wasn't my image of him. Simply put, I didn't believe Carson was this much of a punk-ass. And I simply don't accept the "but he just wants to be on a winning team" or "Brown drove him to it" junk because you could say the same about Chad, Dillon, or anybody else. The fact is not every team gets to win all the time and, as the QB, Carson has to bear his share of responsibility for losing. Sure, if he wants to go live a peaceful life in OC because his wife says so, that's his right. But if that's the case, just do it. Don't say you still want to play, but only if you never have to be more than two hours from home. WTF is that?

[HairOnFire]

Ah, but you're the one passing up the value of a draft pick to spite her.

No, I'm not. Or rather, no, Mike Brown isn't. Instead, he's giving no weight whatsoever to her complaints by saying it's a franchise players responsibility to stand tall in the face of criticism no matter if it's deserved or not. In fact, doing so is precisely one of the reasons Palmer has made so much money.

Get your mind around this. The wife may indeed be the cause of the problem but Mike Brown will only concern himself with Carson Palmer. As a result, he's well served by refusing Palmer's demand initially....especially since no trades are even possible now. Spite never enters the equation. Browns motivation for stonewalling any trade talk is a freaking no-brainer.

The question now facing the "Traders" isn't the wisdom of refusing Palmer's demands, but what has to happen now to make Mike Brown shift from his current stance. And obviously the first thing that springs to mind is someone offering the Bengals a trade package far richer than the best case scenario currently projected by wagging tounges.

[alleycat]

Ah, but you're the one passing up the value of a draft pick to spite her.

No, I'm not. Or rather, no, Mike Brown isn't. Instead, he's giving no weight whatsoever to her complaints by saying it's a franchise players responsibility to stand tall in the face of criticism no matter if it's deserved or not. In fact, doing so is precisely one of the reasons Palmer has made so much money.

Get your mind around this. The wife may indeed be the cause of the problem but Mike Brown will only concern himself with Carson Palmer. As a result, he's well served by refusing Palmer's demand initially....especially since no trades are even possible now. Spite never enters the equation. Browns motivation for stonewalling any trade talk is a freaking no-brainer.

The question now facing the "Traders" isn't the wisdom of refusing Palmer's demands, but what has to happen now to make Mike Brown shift from his current stance. And obviously the first thing that springs to mind is someone offering the Bengals a trade package far richer than the best case scenario currently projected by wagging tounges.

Exactly. And if the price for an unproven Kolb is a first and third (rumored, of course), it makes no sense why we shouldn't get more for Palmer. Sure, there's the age argument but...

And with all of those wagging tongues bringing up SF, I'd have to say that that #10 pick sounds fair to me. Especially with the new upcoming cap making it less damaging (in theory).

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

Get your mind around this. The wife may indeed be the cause of the problem but Mike Brown will only concern himself with Carson Palmer. As a result, he's well served by refusing Palmer's demand initially....especially since no trades are even possible now. Spite never enters the equation. Browns motivation for stonewalling any trade talk is a freaking no-brainer.

Huh? Behind door #1, you have no Palmer and no draft pick. Behind door #2, you have no Palmer and a high draft pick. Put as much lipstick on that pig as you want, dumb is still dumb to pass up the pick for some principled stand that has no business value.

Regarding the trade blackout - that only matters if Mikey is using it to buy time to play chicken with Carson before blinking. I'm not sure he's either that dumb or that smart.

The question now facing the "Traders" isn't the wisdom of refusing Palmer's demands, but what has to happen now to make Mike Brown shift from his current stance. And obviously the first thing that springs to mind is someone offering the Bengals a trade package far richer than the best case scenario currently projected by wagging tounges.

So your contention now is that Brown is just driving up the price? I thought this was a principled stand? If he's willing to compromise that principle for a price, then (to paraphrase) we've established that he's a whore, the rest is just haggling.

Not to say that driving up the price wouldn't be a good idea with the aforementioned trade blackout giving him cover for some acting. But the last time I gave Mike credit for intelligence I thought he was using his stubbornness as cover to drive up the price for Chad, when really...he was just in fact a stubborn fool. I'll see evidence before I assume otherwise this time.

[HairOnFire]

Behind door #1, you have no Palmer and no draft pick. Behind door #2, you have no Palmer and a high draft pick. Put as much lipstick on that pig as you want, dumb is still dumb to pass up the pick for some principled stand that has no business value.

Huh? What pick is being passed up? No trades are even possible, right? So yeah, right now it IS a no-brainer for Mike Brown to crush any trade talk. Because doing so is the best way to force Palmer to return to the Bengals, while at the same time being the best way to delay or prevent setting precedent. It's also a perfect way to send a message that potential bargain shoppers need not inquire. In fact, it's a handy way to send all kinds of unspoken messages a team owner might want sent....including one about how easily the team can move on without Palmer and without bowing to any of his demands.

Make no mistake, in this example getting nothing has value.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

Huh? What pick is being passed up? No trades are even possible, right? So yeah, right now it IS a no-brainer for Mike Brown to crush any trade talk.

Uh huh. I see a shift in your argument away from 'Make Palmer retire' to 'drive up the price'. Which is it?

Because doing so is the best way to force Palmer to return to the Bengals

We want him? Why?

while at the same time being the best way to delay or prevent setting precedent.

Which, as we've been over, has no deterrence value since they try anyway.

It's also a perfect way to send a message that potential bargain shoppers need not inquire.

Which, as addressed, would make sense - which is why Mike Brown isn't doing it.

In fact, it's a handy way to send all kinds of unspoken messages a team owner might want sent

All of which are mutually exclusive. It serves no purpose except to make yourself more slippery than a greased pig. You're in Mike Brown's head, which course is he intent on? I don't believe for a second that he's just seeing how it plays out. That's not him.

....including one about how easily the team can move on without Palmer and without bowing to any of his demands.

And we're back to spite. Does that peculiar sentiment win games?

Make no mistake, in this example getting nothing has value.

Funny, as a Bengals fan 'nothing' is the 'value' I'm accustomed to getting. I think that's skewed your math.

[HairOnFire]

So your contention now is that Brown is just driving up the price?

No, I'm suggesting the stonewall strategy potentially pays off in multiple ways. By comparison, announcing you're willing to trade immediately after hearing Palmer's demands does nothing but reduce your leverage on all sorts of fronts.

I thought this was a principled stand? If he's willing to compromise that principle for a price, then (to paraphrase) we've established that he's a whore, the rest is just haggling.

There's no proof whatsoever that Mike Brown is willing to trade Palmer under any circimstance, and plenty of past evidence to suggest he won't. As for those who are willing to compromise principle for price, I fear you've just called Hoosier a whore. And Hokie too. Happily, my recent shift to a more extreme position proves I'm less of a whore than most.

[HairOnFire]

Huh? What pick is being passed up? No trades are even possible, right? So yeah, right now it IS a no-brainer for Mike Brown to crush any trade talk.

Uh huh. I see a shift in your argument away from 'Make Palmer retire' to 'drive up the price'. Which is it?

Please forgive, but are you capable of juggling only one ball at a time?

Because doing so is the best way to force Palmer to return to the Bengals

We want him? Why?

Because we currently have no replacement. Change that fact and I might expect Mike Brown to change his stance.

while at the same time being the best way to delay or prevent setting precedent.

Which, as we've been over, has no deterrence value since they try anyway.

That's remarkably weak. Ask yourself how many times might this type of thing happen if the players had realistic expectations it would work?

It's also a perfect way to send a message that potential bargain shoppers need not inquire.

Which, as addressed, would make sense - which is why Mike Brown isn't doing it.

Like hell he isn't. Nothing says don't bother lowballing like a reluctant owner who is listening to bids only because he's been threatened. By comparison, nothing says we'll listen to all offers, no matter how low, as identifying yourself as motivated seller.

....including one about how easily the team can move on without Palmer and without bowing to any of his demands.

And we're back to spite.

I'm starting to wonder if you know the difference between spite and leverage.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

No, I'm suggesting the stonewall strategy potentially pays off in multiple ways.

No, it can only pay off in one way in the end. You have to choose one. And considering how stubborn Mikey is, he's already done so. He's not the sort who's prone to the moral relativism that would allow one the freedom of a fluid situation based on a game-theoretic limited-information approach. He knows what he's doing, and so does everybody else.

By comparison, announcing you're willing to trade immediately after hearing Palmer's demands does nothing but reduce your leverage on all sorts of fronts.

What one decides internally and how one expresses it externally are different things. No, of course I wouldn't shout from the treetops that I'm trading him, if I'm the GM. I'd pretend to do what Mikey's actually doing. However, I realize that Mikey doesn't possess that level of sophistication. With him, it's not an act - he really is that stupid.

There's no proof whatsoever that Mike Brown is willing to trade Palmer under any circimstance, and plenty of past evidence to suggest he won't.

No shiznit, so we're back where we started - Mike Brown will drive Palmer into retirement, avoid bettering the team in the process, and ride off on his high horse (er, Shetland Lumina).

Happily, my recent shift to a more extreme position proves I'm less of a whore than most.

You're still the all-time winner.

[HairOnFire]

No, I'm suggesting the stonewall strategy potentially pays off in multiple ways.

No, it can only pay off in one way in the end. You have to choose one.

No, I don't. Because like I said, by refusing to trade Palmer the Bengals would be doing exactly what's required to force him back to the team, while at the same time sending a valuable message. Plus, their decision forces Palmer to choose his future without the Bengals doing anything more spiteful than sitting back and watching it happen. They even manage to send not so subtle messages to teams interested in trading for Palmer AND in the process their actions help to disquise their draft day intentions. Best, if things play out the way YOU think they will Mike Brown pockets 11.5 million.

That's multiple payoff.

What one decides internally and how one expresses it externally are different things. No, of course I wouldn't shout from the treetops that I'm trading him, if I'm the GM. I'd pretend to do what Mikey's actually doing.

What's that? You'd pretend to do what Mikey's actually doing?

DC, you're so full of s**t you should change the color of the font to brown. Of course you'd do exactly what Mike Brown is doing. Because right now stonewalling any trade talk is a no-brainer. Furthermore, you know very well that there's only one valid reason for Mike Brown to shift his stance in the future.

[Kazkal]

At Midnight we can trade Carson since the Union has split...bye Jjoe...

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

No, I don't. Because like I said, by refusing to trade Palmer the Bengals would be doing exactly what's required to force him back to the team, while at the same time sending a valuable message.

Except nobody with sense would still want him on the team, the ploy won't work anyway, and the 'message' has no football value. 0-3 and a lost draft pick. This is why Mike Brown sucks at running a football team.

They even manage to send not so subtle messages to teams interested in trading for Palmer AND in the process their actions help to disquise their draft day intentions.

Those subtle messages are useless unless he's willing to trade which we agree he isn't. And I think the lid's off those draft-day intentions. If you think other teams haven't figgered out that the Bengals need a QB, yer nuts.

Best, if things play out the way YOU think they will Mike Brown pockets 11.5 million.

And we're back to the usual Mike Brown gambit of trading football success for cash banked. By the way, don't forget that signing bonus! Gotta make payments for the Lumina in 2011, right?

DC, you're so full of s**t you should change the color of the font to brown. Of course you'd do exactly what Mike Brown is doing. Because right now stonewalling any trade talk is a no-brainer. Furthermore, you know very well that there's only one valid reason for Mike Brown to shift his stance in the future.

And your ass is getting chapped from straddling that fence. If he were actually going to trade Palmer, I'd agree it's the right move. But in the end he won't trade Palmer. That's why it's retarded. Bluffing is smart because it's a bluff, not because you actually do it. Listen, if he backtracks and maneuvers this into a decent first-round pick, I'll change my avatar to a picture of Punkin. But I think I'm safe.

[membengal]

Kaz...u seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding about what decertification means...

[TJJackson]

Listen, if he backtracks and maneuvers this into a decent first-round pick, I'll change my avatar to a picture of Punkin. But I think I'm safe.

Just for sake of clarity, will the avatar picture be of her in a business suit, or as described in a lurid fever-dream (garter belt jog the memory any?) sometime last year by, uhhhhh, Hair?

[COB]

Shetland Lumina.

[Kazkal]

Kaz...u seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding about what decertification means...

Me thinks your the one with the misunderstanding because been reported that it could start depending on judges ruling :|

Source: Free agency could start at midnight

Posted by Mike Florio on March 11, 2011, 6:31 PM EST

As the league scrambles to process the meaning of the union’s decision to decertify, a high-level source with one team tells PFT that the league is preparing for the possibility that free agency could begin soon.

As in at midnight.

Per the source, the league is bracing for the possibility of a ruling from Judge David Doty that would force the doors to remain open, compelling the league to allow player movement and trades as soon as 12:01 a.m. Saturday.

Thus, by tomorrow at this time, Raiders cornerback Nnamdi Asomugha could (key word . . . “could”) have a new team.

Though no one knows for sure whether that will happen, there’s a fear/belief that it could, and teams are preparing for the possibility.

Holy crap, this could get very interesting.

[membengal]

And then the league will immediately appeal any such decision from Doty and take up residence in Minneapolis w/ an appeal to the 7th circuit, I would guess, and my brothers and sisters in law will begin to make their money. Nothing is going to happen quickly on this, Kaz. I would suggest not living and dying with each possibility for the next little bit.

Did free agency start last night at midnight??? No? Shocking.

[Sea Ray]

And then the league will immediately appeal any such decision from Doty and take up residence in Minneapolis w/ an appeal to the 7th circuit, I would guess, and my brothers and sisters in law will begin to make their money. Nothing is going to happen quickly on this, Kaz. I would suggest not living and dying with each possibility for the next little bit.

Did free agency start last night at midnight??? No? Shocking.

Good advice. I'd add to not take too seriously what you read on PFT. Seems as though the following is more accurate:

-- No player movement. There will be none under the lockout. No player signings and no trades. The April draft still will take place, but drafted players will not be able to sign contracts. And players who are injured will be unable to receive treatment by team doctors and trainers, and coaches can have no contact with their players.

/>http://aol.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2011-03-11/off-to-court-where-the-nfl-labor-fight-continues

I can't see why owners would sign players if they don't know what the rules are going to be such as the cap, when free agency kicks in, etc.

[HairOnFire]

No, I don't. Because like I said, by refusing to trade Palmer the Bengals would be doing exactly what's required to force him back to the team, while at the same time sending a valuable message.

Except nobody with sense would still want him on the team, the ploy won't work anyway, and the 'message' has no football value.

Hilarious. First you mock the value Palmer has and then in the same breath bemoan the loss of that value. Furthermore, you dismiss the value of the message being sent as if you have no concept of what damage control is and how important it can be.

Those subtle messages are useless unless he's willing to trade which we agree he isn't.

Not true. In fact, let the messages sent to Chad Ochocinco and Carson Palmer be delivered someday to those yet born. (Yeah, I'm looking at you, Cam Newton)

Best, if things play out the way YOU think they will Mike Brown pockets 11.5 million.

And we're back to the usual Mike Brown gambit of trading football success for cash banked.

You seem to be unclear on who is responsible for money remaining in Mike's pocket. Here's a hint. It's Carson. Furthermore, you seem unable to grasp any of the 11.5 million reasons why getting nothing in exchange for Palmer isn't actually a case of getting nothing. In fact, there's plenty of upside in nothing as long as you're willing to turn your back on a draft pick. More specifically, a pick in exchange for a player whose value you sometimes mock.

And your ass is getting chapped from straddling that fence.

If there's any chapping and chafing on my cyber ass it's likely due to you not shaving before attempting to shove your head up my magnificent internet pooper.

As for straddling the fence, I've my peace with my choice. In short, I'd let him rot, mostly because I believe it's the right thing to do, but also because I now believe the projected level of trade return isn't nearly enough to cause a shift in stance. What I would have once settled for I now look at as peanuts, and I'm betting I'm not the only one who feels that way.

[Kazkal]

And then the league will immediately appeal any such decision from Doty and take up residence in Minneapolis w/ an appeal to the 7th circuit, I would guess, and my brothers and sisters in law will begin to make their money. Nothing is going to happen quickly on this, Kaz. I would suggest not living and dying with each possibility for the next little bit.

Did free agency start last night at midnight??? No? Shocking.

still doesn't mean won't happen after judge rules on it, chance of it happening just like theres chance it won't "shrug"