What Lap Said on Bengals Line 9/27/10

[membengal]

So, had an hour to kill and was able to pull up WLW on the blackberry radio app at 6:00. Figured it would be apologetic stuff from the talking heads, but man, not so. Here is a summary of what Lapham and then Johansen when he joined Lap at 6:45 said:

1. It was open season on Chad from Lapham. Many references to the need for Johnson to actually spend as much time caring about the team and his craft as he does twitter and his other off-field pursuits. Said the first interception was clearly Chad's fault.

2. Laid into the offensive line in general and Dennis Roland in specific. Said there is no word for Roland's Sunday other than "awful". That observation led them to this...

3. General puzzlement that the offensive coaches/ML made no in-game adjustments to help Roland as the game dragged on. No chipping with a back or keeping a TE in. No other help.

4. All of the above infused their discussion of Palmer. They agreed he had an awful game. But they also noted that the offensive line has been so bad through three games that Palmer looks shell-shocked in terms of trusting that he can step up into throws, and further that Palmer has also been betrayed by receivers (read "Chad") not being where they are supposed to be too many times.

So, to sum up, there was enough "this is how it is" from Lapham and Johansen to spread the blame to a lot of targets. Which is to say a lot of people on this board are right to be critical of various aspects of the Cincinnati offense, but that perhaps the criticism is too narrowly tailored, with not enough appreciation of just how many moving parts are not working correctly. Lapham suggested an open audition for RT this week, and having a back-up plan should they go with Roland again and he have another weeks where he is escorted back to his quarterback on a regular basis. Or can't get his ass to the line for a snap in time to preserve a field goal.

All in all, it was a very interesting bit of truth-telling from Lap, and I was glad to hear it. If WLW does podcasts, check out the 6:30 to 7:00 segment of the 6:00 - 9:00 Bengals line. After that, guests took some of the steam out of the interesting stuff.

[Kazkal]

3. General puzzlement that the offensive coaches/ML made no in-game adjustments to help Roland as the game dragged on. No chipping with a back or keeping a TE in. No other help.

He doesn't need help his giant swingdoor arse needs to ride the bench.

[w8th]

http://www.700wlw.com/cc-common/podcast/single_podcast.html?podcast=bengals.xml

[membengal]

3. General puzzlement that the offensive coaches/ML made no in-game adjustments to help Roland as the game dragged on. No chipping with a back or keeping a TE in. No other help.

He doesn't need help his giant swingdoor arse needs to ride the bench.

Yeah, they said as much. But that was part of their puzzlement. Why Collins wasn't brought in to see if he could block somebody. Failing that, why not help Roland in some way.

What they couldn't figure was why the coaches did NOTHING to help fix or at least address the problem as Sunday wore on.

[HoosierCat]

3. General puzzlement that the offensive coaches/ML made no in-game adjustments to help Roland as the game dragged on. No chipping with a back or keeping a TE in. No other help.

He doesn't need help his giant swingdoor arse needs to ride the bench.

Yeah, they said as much. But that was part of their puzzlement. Why Collins wasn't brought in to see if he could block somebody. Failing that, why not help Roland in some way.

What they couldn't figure was why the coaches did NOTHING to help fix or at least address the problem as Sunday wore on.

Im really starting to wonder whether there isn't a problem between Marvin and Sideshow Bob.

There have always been rumors that Brat is Mikey's guy and not the guy Marvin would pick if he had his druthers, but I never gave them a lot of attention.

Still, Hobson noted something on his blog that also struck me when I read it: after the game, Marvin said the plan was to play ball control football.

Yet the first three plays were pass-pass-pass.

Why didn't Roland get help? Because putting in an extra o-lineman or keeping the TE means one less weapon for Bob.

Now, maybe Marvin is full of crap (always a possibility) but the plays Brat started out calling don't seem to match what marvin said was the plan, and they certainly could have gone to more of a ball-control game than they did (and they did move in that direction).

When I add it all up: run game working OK, short passing game working great, soggy-assed field, rookie QB on the other side, head coach wants to play ball control...well, I can't figure out how that equals a game plan that includes 3 passes to start the game and 20+ balls to Chad & TO.

[ArmyBengal]

Something that has puzzled me is, I can remember at one point in time where Collins was being looked at as being a starter at either the RT or LT spot because he was versatile to do either. Then, as if overnight, he's not capable to beat out Roland. Roland got so many snaps last year in the jumbo package and they even sent him in motion a ton, but that doesn't seem to happen as much and he just catches beat downs each week.

If they aren't going to use him in the same manner as last year (you know, when the running game was dominant) why not see if the guy who they thought was going to be a starter can do any better ?? I guess Collins could do worse at RT, but somehow I doubt it could be much worse than what we've gotten from Roland at this point.

No bashing of Cook or Livings ?? I find that hard to believe. As much as it pains me to say it, I'm in favor of continuing with Andre at LG and seeing what they have in Collins. Next year, go back to the drawing board and rebuild the freaking line, starting with the draft and/or target some free agents.

[HoosierCat]

Yeah, Collins has sort of fallen off the face of the earth, hasn't he? IIRC he got some time at RT early last year but looked bad; I remember kaz complaining about him every other post . Roland took over and that's been it. Collins did look decent at LT in 2008 but they gave that to Whit (because of $$$?). Meanwhile, the Skin Zeppelin rots on the bench (because of $$$?). Am I trying to suggest a possible something here? (hint: $$$)

[membengal]

They took the whole line to task, army. Said Cook had made more mental errors on snaps and such in three games than all of last year. Said the guy that abused Roland moved inside and then abused Williams on a play.

Laid the blame for Carson throwing with guys at his feet on the whole line. That said, Roland has apparently been really s**tty and was even more so on Sunday.

And I am also puzzled why they will not give Mathis a shot again at guard (I hate what Livings is doing) and try something else at RT other than what they are doing.

[volcom69]

I agree and said this in another topic, there is no push from any of the linemen. Livings and Cook were both pushed so bad backwards that Palmer couldnt step up into his throws. Roland played most of his game on his butt, this o-line has just been horrible.

They need to see what Collins can do, or put Mathis in there. They have to make a change they have to see that right now things are not working on the o-line. I agree Palmer does looked scared, and he has no time to step up and throw the ball. Something needs to be done. Why not give these other o-linemen a chance im ready to see Andre Smith in there he cant be any worse then Roland was yesterday.

[Kazkal]

3. General puzzlement that the offensive coaches/ML made no in-game adjustments to help Roland as the game dragged on. No chipping with a back or keeping a TE in. No other help.

He doesn't need help his giant swingdoor arse needs to ride the bench.

Yeah, they said as much. But that was part of their puzzlement. Why Collins wasn't brought in to see if he could block somebody. Failing that, why not help Roland in some way.

What they couldn't figure was why the coaches did NOTHING to help fix or at least address the problem as Sunday wore on.

same reason they leave Livings in,Alexander is Genius / best offensive line coach in the nfl.

[COB]

Two media notes:

I heard Ced interviewed on Sirius on Monday. He said all the right PC stuff. When pressed he said we have a lot of people who want the ball, and everyone needs to play hard on every play, quit just showing up when the play is for him to get the ball. I see that as a blatant attack on Chad, as T.O. does block and play hard.

Second, I heard Marvin say we need to take what's there when the defense clearly tries to take something away. I read that as meaning quit throwing into coverage.

[HoosierCat]

He said all the right PC stuff. When pressed he said we have a lot of people who want the ball, and everyone needs to play hard on every play, quit just showing up when the play is for him to get the ball. I see that as a blatant attack on Chad, as T.O. does block and play hard.

Well, given that Chad has tweeted today that he's added a bum ankle, a bum right hand and bum left pinky to his bum rib...I say it's time for the man, the myth (literally) the legend (in his own mind)...Jerome Simpson.

[Stripes]

Maybe I was completely distracted by Carson's ineptitude and missed things in plain view, but as I said in the other thread: I saw a line performing decently in pass protection save for a couple of Roland's patented matador impressions and beatdowns of Cook and Livings (and the one sack on Williams). I thought the line was utterly horrible in the running game though in all directions. Whitworth had one of his worst games in a while and Livings was just pitiful throughout the game. Cook looked like Ghiaciuc and Bobbie was hardly any better. Roland was Roland.

Benson was visibly incensed early in the game, probably due to the stupid gameplan in the first quarter featuring too much of Carson's arm and due to the line's inability to open any holes anywhere. Thankfully the offense managed to hold on to the football long enough that the Panthers defensive front became winded and Benson started to find more room.

I think the primary issue lies with Carson, Chad, Owens, and perhaps Bratkowski. Some combination of those four Bengals is failing to play/call quality football and the entire offense is sputtering as a result. Chad apparently forgot the playbook, with his ridiculously frequent habit of going somewhere Carson doesn't expect. Owens appears to be doing his job decently well, but Carson forces the ball at him incredibly often (and at Chad, obviously) despite checkdown options being open constantly. I'm more apt to blame Palmer for that than Bratkowski.

Silver lining?

I don't think any of these problems reflect a talent issue, aside from Roland and probably Livings. I still think Carson is capable of playing well, but he's going to have to identify that defenses are giving him everything underneath and start taking advantage of it. Shipley and Gresham would be terrible players to waste. The offense is capable of improving and frankly I think they will. I just hope it won't already be too late.

[HoosierCat]

I think the primary issue lies with Carson, Chad, Owens, and perhaps Bratkowski.

The only word I would quibble with there is "perhaps."

[Sea Ray]

I really think Andre Smith has to be part of the answer. Can he really be any worse than Roland? I doubt it. Mathis was a good lineman last year. I don't know why they won't play him this year. Collins is not much of a RT. He's more a finesse lineman and lacks power. It's not pretty when he plays a lot of RT.

As fans, we want to see something being done. We're tired of the status quo and general "we need to work on stuff" from Marvin

[ArmyBengal]

Here's my thing.

They draft Gresham and Shipley and originally got Antonio Bryant to help with the passing game. They figured with all those weapons, SOMEONE would have to be open. Now we substitute Owens for Bryant and defenses are doubling both at times or running their defensive scheme to take away the deep routes.

With that being the case and considering the original thought of SOMEONE being open if that were to happen, Carson isn't seeing the checkdown or the screen pass that is being given. STOP FORCING THE BALL TO CHAD AND TO, START LOOKING FOR THE OPEN GUY !!!

[COB]

Chad apparently forgot the playbook, with his ridiculously frequent habit of going somewhere Carson doesn't expect.

Yea, Chad can't be bothered to work on his football. I want to barf when I think about Chad jetting off to Miami or wherever during the season to shoot stupid tv shows that no one will even watch.

He's a fool.

[volcom69]

It worries me though that Marvin will sit back, and continue to play the guys that are in there, because they are winning games. He really needs to step up, and set some kind of example that they are not going to take it. This offense has all this talent, but yet the talent never shows up on the field. Its time Marvin starts to take control, and start making some decisions. How can the coaches not see this crap that they are putting on the field?

[membengal]

Maybe I was completely distracted by Carson's ineptitude and missed things in plain view, but as I said in the other thread: I saw a line performing decently in pass protection save for a couple of Roland's patented matador impressions and beatdowns of Cook and Livings (and the one sack on Williams). I thought the line was utterly horrible in the running game though in all directions. Whitworth had one of his worst games in a while and Livings was just pitiful throughout the game. Cook looked like Ghiaciuc and Bobbie was hardly any better. Roland was Roland.

Benson was visibly incensed early in the game, probably due to the stupid gameplan in the first quarter featuring too much of Carson's arm and due to the line's inability to open any holes anywhere. Thankfully the offense managed to hold on to the football long enough that the Panthers defensive front became winded and Benson started to find more room.

I think the primary issue lies with Carson, Chad, Owens, and perhaps Bratkowski. Some combination of those four Bengals is failing to play/call quality football and the entire offense is sputtering as a result. Chad apparently forgot the playbook, with his ridiculously frequent habit of going somewhere Carson doesn't expect. Owens appears to be doing his job decently well, but Carson forces the ball at him incredibly often (and at Chad, obviously) despite checkdown options being open constantly. I'm more apt to blame Palmer for that than Bratkowski.

Silver lining?

I don't think any of these problems reflect a talent issue, aside from Roland and probably Livings. I still think Carson is capable of playing well, but he's going to have to identify that defenses are giving him everything underneath and start taking advantage of it. Shipley and Gresham would be terrible players to waste. The offense is capable of improving and frankly I think they will. I just hope it won't already be too late.

Re: pass protection, TDB, I was just trying to sum up what Lapham said, and he knows from line play. Apparently the pass protection was pretty damn bad in terms of guys getting pushed back into Carson's area where he needs to throw. Which would, apparently, have a lot to do with how bad he looks. And has been an issue in each game this year.

As frustrated as I am with Carson, I may need to dial it back a bit until I start hearing the offensive line is pass blocking appropriately.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

As frustrated as I am with Carson, I may need to dial it back a bit until I start hearing the offensive line is pass blocking appropriately.

The line's bad, but it's not "ruining David Carr's career" kind of bad. Carson shouldn't be this terrible - and many of his worst throws aren't under pressure. I get the whole "but he's shell-shocked" argument, but that's what you deal with as a pro.

[ArmyBengal]

Last year everyone said the line overachieved and this year it hasn't been that great.

Maybe they are simply playing to their talent level more.

I still think it's due to doing different things on the line and not working more as a unit. Meaning, less jumbo packages that certainly helped spring Benson last year for one. The pass blocking last year (by my account) SUCKED and I haven't really seen much to this point to say they are an improved unit. I think we are getting exactly what most thought we had and not the overinflated (we have a top 5 line) crap so many wrote about heading into this season.

Again, giving up sacks is not the be all and end all of what you need your line to protect.

The collapsing pocket, giving Carson little to no room, has been brutal.

That might not be all the time, but they are getting pushed around out there...

[membengal]

As frustrated as I am with Carson, I may need to dial it back a bit until I start hearing the offensive line is pass blocking appropriately.

The line's bad, but it's not "ruining David Carr's career" kind of bad. Carson shouldn't be this terrible - and many of his worst throws aren't under pressure. I get the whole "but he's shell-shocked" argument, but that's what you deal with as a pro.

I didn't say it was "ruining David Carr's career" kind of bad. At no point. And Carson is terrible relative to what he has been in the past, but he's not playing David Carr terrible. He is dealing with it, I would submit, and while the results are not what we want, I think it is what it is at this point. Until I am certain that it is all on Carson and none on the line, I am going to hold my frustration with Carson back. And given that Lapham knows a f**kload more about line play and where it might be failing than I do, if Lapham lays a lot of blame there, which he did last night, then that means something to me.

That said, Carson needs to be smarter and realize that if he doesn't have 5-7 seconds to get back, set up, and throw, that he needs to be finding his shorter targets more often and stop forcing the ball into coverage. But as for his mechanics, the back foot stuff, and general skittishness and lack of accuracy, taking what Lapham said at face value, the line play is more than just a little responsible for that.

You don't agree, take it up with Lapham.

[Sea Ray]

As frustrated as I am with Carson, I may need to dial it back a bit until I start hearing the offensive line is pass blocking appropriately.

The line's bad, but it's not "ruining David Carr's career" kind of bad. Carson shouldn't be this terrible - and many of his worst throws aren't under pressure. I get the whole "but he's shell-shocked" argument, but that's what you deal with as a pro.

I didn't say it was "ruining David Carr's career" kind of bad. At no point. And Carson is terrible relative to what he has been in the past, but he's not playing David Carr terrible. He is dealing with it, I would submit, and while the results are not what we want, I think it is what it is at this point. Until I am certain that it is all on Carson and none on the line, I am going to hold my frustration with Carson back. And given that Lapham knows a f**kload more about line play and where it might be failing than I do, if Lapham lays a lot of blame there, which he did last night, then that means something to me.

That said, Carson needs to be smarter and realize that if he doesn't have 5-7 seconds to get back, set up, and throw, that he needs to be finding his shorter targets more often and stop forcing the ball into coverage. But as for his mechanics, the back foot stuff, and general skittishness and lack of accuracy, taking what Lapham said at face value, the line play is more than just a little responsible for that.

You don't agree, take it up with Lapham.

Of course Lapham knows a lot about line play and all but I also think there's some ass kissin' here too. I think he's being too easy on Carson because he's the primo donna and Lap wants the interview after the game. Lap also feels that the big guys on the line are rough and tough and can take it.

This is nothing new with Lap. In the awful Dave Shula era he would not call out folks like Shula or the QB play. His typical comment would be "this is a failure from top to bottom and everyone deserves some of the blame".

Sure the line play is not good but Carson is getting off easy

[membengal]

He called out everyone. Listen to the piece I referenced. He also called out Carson. But he didn't SOLELY focus on Carson, which is kinda my point. It isn't as easy as us all saying that Carson needs to play better. It would be nice if it were that simple. I am afraid it is not.

[Sea Ray]

He called out everyone. Listen to the piece I referenced. He also called out Carson. But he didn't SOLELY focus on Carson, which is kinda my point. It isn't as easy as us all saying that Carson needs to play better. It would be nice if it were that simple. I am afraid it is not.

Exactly his method. That's Lap. Blame everyone. It doesn't surprise me at all