Your Draft Grades Please

[membengal]

That guy you are slagging at C spent three years starting in the SEC. And blocking future NFL DTs with size. Just saying. There's film out there of that. A lot of it. Darren McFadden and Felix Jones owe some of their signing bonus to Luigs....

[HairOnFire]

We still need a nickel CB but can get a veteran during training camp cuts.

Yup, my only real complaint with the draft rests with the failure to find a better nickleback option than Morgan Trent. I admit it's a fairly solid choice based soley on value rankings, and I keep reminding myself it was a very late pick so there's no reason to get upset. But I think those rankings give too much credit to his athletic ability and far too little consideration to instincts and actual playing ability.

Hopefully he's better than I think OR maybe the Bengals are simply looking at him as a project who might pay dividends in a couple of years. But I'm just not feeling that one.

[Kazkal]

Well I would think David Jones goes on being the nickle back since they were comfortable enough with him starting...

So hopefully Jjoe stays healthy :|

[HairOnFire]

Well I would think David Jones goes on being the nickle back since they were comfortable enough with him starting...

Why must you rub salt in my wound?

[Kazkal]

All of the subsequent movement of players, up and down, were the result of bowl games, all-star games, and the combine.

More likey, the ridiculous and near constant shuffling of players up and down draft boards was the result of media dinks needing fresh material to talk about as the draft process drug out over months.

Teams say all the time that game film represents 90% of a prospects grade and everything else added together shouldn't be enough to push a player up or down more than a single round. Frankly, I don't doubt it a bit.

Unless your name is Al Davis where the COmbine is 90% of the prospects grade.

[Pidge]

Wait, the guy with 'draft' in his name isn't all knowing? You mean, he's just another schlep on a message board like the rest of us?

[Dadraftnick]

By the way, I have no idea where you got your number of points assigned to certain draft choices but, it looks like something from that guy at the huddle report.

It's the scoring system that is pretty much agreed upon by NFL GM's when approaching one another for trading picks. For instance... if the Bengals would have wanted to trade their #6 pick to, say that 49ers... there is a 300 point difference between #6 and #10, and the 49ers would have needed to give a late 2nd rounder, or a mid 3rd and early 4th rounder.

Draft Pick Value Chart

My scoring system was not arbitrary. Did I misuse it a bit? Well... perhaps it wasn't intended for the grading of a draft... but since this is an already agreed upon ranking system, it seems like the best tool at our disposal when weighing the importance of individual picks.

I noticed you didnt give A's to those picks in the last two rns picks either.

Yep. I never said I liked the picks. Nor do I dislike them much. I just don't care. My point was that given the value of picks coming that late, it has virtually no impact when grading the draft overall.

It's the scoring system that is pretty much agreed upon by NFL GM's when approaching one another for trading picks. For instance... if the Bengals would have wanted to trade their #6 pick to, say that 49ers... there is a 300 point difference between #6 and #10, and the 49ers would have needed to give a late 2nd rounder, or a mid 3rd and early 4th rounder

What you are talking is a TRADE VALUE CHART - points are asigned each spot in the draft to give an idea how many draft choices you are going to have to give up in order to figure how much compensation you will have to give up, in draft choices.

It does not mean that, the draft choice at that spot is worth that many points,which is the impression that, I got from the post.

My point was that given the value of picks coming that late, it has virtually no impact when grading the draft overall.

The picks may not have alot of point value if, you are trying to trade up for a 1st rnd pick but, they sure as hell make a big difference on how good your draft was.- IT A COMPLETLY DIFFERENT THING

6#b)RB Bernard Scott --is a MAJOR character concern that I doubt that any other team would have taken a chance on and even though ,I think he is a hell of a RB , if you take a guy like this you BETTER take another RB because, this guy is just as likely to go to prison and kicked out of the league as, he is score a TD in the NFL.

7)#1)FB Fui Vakapuna We got a FB that runs a 4.8 and is not someone that can run the ball- those guys are a dime a dozen, and since most of the teams that needed a FB drafted one , this guy would have signed a UFA contract with us and if he did not there much more just like him waiting for us to sign a ufa contract .

-Dont forget we just got back Jeremi Johnson back and in shape before, the draft, the guy that the Bengals made the highest paid FB in the league before he was cut due to weight and an injury.

7#2)Clinton McDonald - an undersized DTcoming off an injury that was that was not expected to be drafted-plus having Tank Johnson on the roster makes this guy a stupid pick- I doubt that they will have a roster spot for this guy which means that even if he is good , he will end up on another teams roster.

7#3)WR Freddie Brown- a Tall 6-3 215 WR that runs a 4.75! , a 4.75! clearly a wasted pick - they already have good tall WR's on the roster that can run and there were some very good WR's still avaliable

There were tons of good player that very good and some were expect to go in the middle rounds

Darry Beckwith 6-0, 242 4.77 LSU , for example was rated as high as 2nd-3rd rnd

Jeremiah Johnson RB 5-9, 210 Oregon had the highest YPC of all the major guys in the draft--

rushed for 1201yds 13 td

Otis Wiley SS 6-1, 213 Michigan State a hell of a S that brings the wood.

C.J. Spillman FS 6-0, 197 Marshall see above

Domonique Johnson CB 6-2, 200 Jackson State a very good CB with size

P.J. Hill RB 5-10, 222 Wisconsin rushed for 1569 yds and 15 td

just to name a few

[derekshank]

It's the scoring system that is pretty much agreed upon by NFL GM's when approaching one another for trading picks. For instance... if the Bengals would have wanted to trade their #6 pick to, say that 49ers... there is a 300 point difference between #6 and #10, and the 49ers would have needed to give a late 2nd rounder, or a mid 3rd and early 4th rounder

What you are talking is a TRADE VALUE CHART - points are asigned each spot in the draft to give an idea how many draft choices you are going to have to give up in order to figure how much compensation you will have to give up, in draft choices.

It does not mean that, the draft choice at that spot is worth that many points,which is the impression that, I got from the post.

Alright... I'm going to go ahead and respond to this by merely cutting and pasting what I've already said...

Did I misuse it a bit? Well... perhaps it wasn't intended for the grading of a draft... but since this is an already agreed upon ranking system, it seems like the best tool at our disposal when weighing the importance of individual picks.

Yes... it's a TRADE VALUE CHART. I first noticed this when I was typing those exact words in my earlier post.

What I don't get in your complaint with my grading scale is how you so easily separate a pick's individual value in an overall draft from the value of the pick on the trade market. Something is worth only as much as the market will bear. If it is agreed across the majority of the NFL that this is its worth in the trade market, then it stands to reason that the pick's value is just that.

So... no, I have no problem assigning 61% of my grade to Andre Smith, while assigning a mere .05% to the final two 7th rounders. That's what the pick's market value is worth... and thus, that is the value the pick gets in my draft grade. If you care to continue to debate this, I'll be looking for a less arbitrary system... not one merely based on how much you dislike a particular pick.

My point was that given the value of picks coming that late, it has virtually no impact when grading the draft overall.

The picks may not have alot of point value if, you are trying to trade up for a 1st rnd pick but, they sure as hell make a big difference on how good your draft was.- IT A COMPLETLY DIFFERENT THING

How? If you get a steal like a Housh or a Brady... absolutely. But there is also no way of knowing that right now. If there was a way of knowing, they wouldn’t have fallen to the 7th round. All we have to go on is the knowledge that is currently available.

You cannot get a good read on how to grade a draft until 3 years after the fact. In the meantime, we are forced to debate with nothing more than opinion. And given the NFL's current valuation of each individual pick, my system of grading is far less arbitrary than yours.

I would also like to add that 3 years from this draft, the late round picks will be able to do nothing but raise the grade of the draft. When you are looking over a team's 2005 draft and see a 7th rounder that is no longer in the NFL, you say... "Oh well." because that is more often than not the case. But when you see a guy who is actually being productive, the grade gets bumped up considerably.

6#b)RB Bernard Scott --is a MAJOR character concern that I doubt that any other team would have taken a chance on and even though ,I think he is a hell of a RB , if you take a guy like this you BETTER take another RB because, this guy is just as likely to go to prison and kicked out of the league as, he is score a TD in the NFL.

7)#1)FB Fui Vakapuna We got a FB that runs a 4.8 and is not someone that can run the ball- those guys are a dime a dozen, and since most of the teams that needed a FB drafted one , this guy would have signed a UFA contract with us and if he did not there much more just like him waiting for us to sign a ufa contract .

-Dont forget we just got back Jeremi Johnson back and in shape before, the draft, the guy that the Bengals made the highest paid FB in the league before he was cut due to weight and an injury.

7#2)Clinton McDonald - an undersized DTcoming off an injury that was that was not expected to be drafted-plus having Tank Johnson on the roster makes this guy a stupid pick- I doubt that they will have a roster spot for this guy which means that even if he is good , he will end up on another teams roster.

7#3)WR Freddie Brown- a Tall 6-3 215 WR that runs a 4.75! , a 4.75! clearly a wasted pick - they already have good tall WR's on the roster that can run and there were some very good WR's still avaliable

There were tons of good player that very good and some were expect to go in the middle rounds

Darry Beckwith 6-0, 242 4.77 LSU , for example was rated as high as 2nd-3rd rnd

Jeremiah Johnson RB 5-9, 210 Oregon had the highest YPC of all the major guys in the draft--

rushed for 1201yds 13 td

Otis Wiley SS 6-1, 213 Michigan State a hell of a S that brings the wood.

C.J. Spillman FS 6-0, 197 Marshall see above

Domonique Johnson CB 6-2, 200 Jackson State a very good CB with size

P.J. Hill RB 5-10, 222 Wisconsin rushed for 1569 yds and 15 td

just to name a few

I'm not arguing that the guys they took were the best options. I'm merely stating that your complaint about this draft is such a minimal one that it appears you want nothing more than to bitch. You can't complain about the first 5 rounds because they likely got nothing but players who will contribute right away. So you are left to inflate the value of 6th and 7th round picks you didn't like.

And by the way... since you completely missed my point and decided to leave what appears to be a lengthy bitching session about 6th and 7th round picks... know that it fell on deaf ears. I didn't read a single word of it. My debate with you has nothing to do with the players selected, but the value of the picks themselves, thus your opinion of the players taken vs. the ones available is meaningless.

[HoosierCat]

Jeezus I cannot believe this is being argued.

Andre Smith? Arguably the best player in the entire draft.

Rey-Rey? In the second round???? Game, set, match, they could've forfeited he rest of the draft and I'd be happy. Big Ben's life just became the suck.

Michael Johnson? In the third??? So what if he's unmotivated, he's only got to be motivated 12 snaps a game. Here's a trick, Marvin: tell him every time he comes off without a sack Kevin Huber gets to play ro-sham-bo on him.

Chase Coffman???? Seriously??? A pass-catching threat at TE??? Holy freakin' s**t. When did I die and go to heaven?

As for the rest...gravy. I wouldn't give a crap if they cut all of them tomorrow. If someone emerges, great, but the coaching staff needs to not waste time on them. Make the top picks into the pro bowlers they should be. Bengals need quality, not quantity.

Awesome draft.

Let's hope the coaching staff can do something with it.

[agreen_112]

Jeezus I cannot believe this is being argued.

Andre Smith? Arguably the best player in the entire draft.

Rey-Rey? In the second round???? Game, set, match, they could've forfeited he rest of the draft and I'd be happy. Big Ben's life just became the suck.

Michael Johnson? In the third??? So what if he's unmotivated, he's only got to be motivated 12 snaps a game. Here's a trick, Marvin: tell him every time he comes off without a sack Kevin Huber gets to play ro-sham-bo on him.

Chase Coffman???? Seriously??? A pass-catching threat at TE??? Holy freakin' s**t. When did I die and go to heaven?

As for the rest...gravy. I wouldn't give a crap if they cut all of them tomorrow. If someone emerges, great, but the coaching staff needs to not waste time on them. Make the top picks into the pro bowlers they should be. Bengals need quality, not quantity.

Awesome draft.

Let's hope the coaching staff can do something with it.

I agree... I missed the draft and spent the day at the Cincinnati Zoo with my daughter, then went camping the rest of the weekend with her.. On my way back home I hear on 700 that we drafted Rey Rey. I'm thinking that's great he'll be an awesome pickup. Then 4 hours later I come to find out he was our 2nd round pick and that A. Smith was our 1st! WTF?!

This draft was an A in my opinion. Our top 4 picks plus a punter who can absolutely boot the ball, deserves an A.

[COB]

Teams say all the time that game film represents 90% of a prospects grade and everything else added together shouldn't be enough to push a player up or down more than a single round.

Playing in games is everything. Measuring how linemen perform in track events is meaningless. Seriously, sprints? How many of those fat boys were lining up with sprinters in high school track? Shot put, discus. That's it.

We have a perfect illustration of how impossible it is to determine how good a player is with anything other than actual game play. Chris Perry comes off a muli-year injury. The coaches think he looks great in shorts. He runs great in drills and looks like Superman in reduced contact run-throughs. The Bengals coaches love him so much they install him as the starter. Then the season starts and he sucks. He can't get yards after contact, can't elude, can't hold onto the ball.

If an NFL staff with unlimited access to a guy can't tell if he can play, how are you supposed to be able to make the same determination based on a week-long track meet in Indianapolis? People like Al Davis, (and Mike Brown), who draft based on a guy's "athleticism" are doomed.

[TJJackson]

uh, welcome back Hoosier?

[ArmyBengal]

The people bagging our draft must not have a freaking clue to the holes we filled. Disappointed in Andre Smith's decisions that had nothing to do with how he plays the game ?? Go watch game film and that should make you feel better. Oh yeah, check our roster and see who else we have that can do what he can for us. Think Rey was a bad pick ?? How old is Dhani and who is his backup without Rey ?? Michael Johnson needs motivation ?? May I present you with Mr. Zimmer and Mr. Fitzgerald. I'm good there. Chase Coffman had more receiving TD's than ANY OTHER tight end in the draft for his career and provides Carson another weapon in the mold of what we lost in TJ. You don't like taking the BEST PUNTER IN THE DRAFT where we did you say ?? Go take a look at what Larson has done and tell me that wasn't a good move. Can't do it... Plus we got a FB to challenge J. Johnson and provided some depth ?? Can't see the downside at all. Has to be an "A-" at a minimum...

[derekshank]

Jeezus I cannot believe this is being argued.

Andre Smith? Arguably the best player in the entire draft.

Rey-Rey? In the second round???? Game, set, match, they could've forfeited he rest of the draft and I'd be happy. Big Ben's life just became the suck.

Michael Johnson? In the third??? So what if he's unmotivated, he's only got to be motivated 12 snaps a game. Here's a trick, Marvin: tell him every time he comes off without a sack Kevin Huber gets to play ro-sham-bo on him.

Chase Coffman???? Seriously??? A pass-catching threat at TE??? Holy freakin' s**t. When did I die and go to heaven?

As for the rest...gravy. I wouldn't give a crap if they cut all of them tomorrow. If someone emerges, great, but the coaching staff needs to not waste time on them. Make the top picks into the pro bowlers they should be. Bengals need quality, not quantity.

Awesome draft.

Let's hope the coaching staff can do something with it.

Long time no see Hoosier. Hair has been crying over your absence for months.

Anyway... you forgot about Luigs. Maybe not the best C in the draft... but currently the best C on the roster. Also, the Punter is likely going to be far better than Larson.

That means that the first 6 players the Bengals drafted will likely have an immediate impact on the team. How do you not give that an A?

[HairOnFire]

Teams say all the time that game film represents 90% of a prospects grade and everything else added together shouldn't be enough to push a player up or down more than a single round.

Playing in games is everything. Measuring how linemen perform in track events is meaningless. Seriously, sprints? How many of those fat boys were lining up with sprinters in high school track? Shot put, discus. That's it.

The track events matter, but too many people put too much into the results...especially when evaluating positions where track timings aren't important. Furthermore, too many people just assume every draft prospect has spent every waking hour preparing for combine events they've never done before, and will likely never do again.

For example, I've always liked Asher Allen as a much better than average Nickle CB prospect who could be had somewhere around the 3rd round. But I watched as he ripped off some fairly mediocre timings at the combine, and that suprised me....because he never looked slow when I watched him play. But I remained interested in him due to me desire for an upgrade at the Bengals 3rd CB spot.

Weeks later I read an article about how Asher didn't train at all for the 40 yard dash, explaining how he always felt he was as fast as anyone else and incorrectly assumed he could produce a pretty respectable time without training for track events. Regardless, after the combine he began a 6-week training program designed to improve his start in the 40. The results were said to be immediate and Asher reportedly ripped off a series of 4.32's when working out for teams in private workouts. And that's pretty freaking fast, right?

But in the end the stopwatch timings don't count for much because he's still the exact same football player he always was.

[chrishcovga]

ALLRIGHT ***dammit !!! , I have Resurfaced !!! , It seems the Bengals only draft wisely when I stay away from this board ???? Why the Hell is that ???

Ok. Gotta give them an A++++++ for who and when they took each player!! Only knock is not grabbing a higher rated runningback, but I'm not going to hold that against them.

I watched film of Bernard Scott, and yes he looks Like Allen Iverson after a Georgetown rape-fest, but he has great vision and very solid hands. But back to the other picks.

1. Andre Smith - Can't really argue with this pick. At the beginning of the draft process he was considered to be the overall top player in the draft next to Crabtree. His long arms make up for his height, and just like you can't teach speed, you can't teach a 300 + pound man balance. He either has it or he doesn't and Smith excels at it.

2. Rey Maualuga - I would've picked up my 36 inch 200lb television and thrown it on my cat if the Bengals passed on him!!! ( You HEAR THAT KHUFU - YOU WOULD'VE BEEN ONE DEAD p***y) if they passed on the drafts second best linebacker!!

3. Michael Johnson - I was actually arguing with my best friend and Aiken Highschool graduate( we both live in Georgia now) Roy, that Michael Johnson would be there at # 38. He refused to hear it, and as luck would have it, We get him at # 70. I like this pick for several reasons. ONE - I'm a Georgia Tech. fan, and watched him live, and TWO - the player he could become with Zimmer pushing him.

3b. Chase Coffman - GOODBYE NATE LAWRIE! DAN COATS!, And since Ben Utecht didn't do anything but collect a check last year, He can grab his cheese sandwich and bus ticket too for all I care. Watching film of this kid catch pass after pass with one hand, dive for balls and he's 6'6.... That's just amazing! Great effort player and has natural talent too boot. If he learns to block, Palmer has his very own Dan Ross !

4. Jonathan Luigs - The knock on him is his strength ??? I don't get it.., Look at the game film of him against Marcus Thomas DT, Florida, or Glen Dorsey DT, LSU... and he's killing them!! He must know AKIDO or something because he's very adept at letting defensive tackles go where they want to go, but NOT where they need to be. He'll start, I guarantee it!

5. Kevin Huber - Bout damn time is all I can say. We haven't had a decent punter here since the early days of Lee Johnson.

6a. Morgan trent is a very solid cornerback. But he's a better athlete than football player. Getting a guy like this in the 6th round is smart. If the light comes on early, you've got a solid backup and good special teamer, if the light doesn't come on early, exit stage right to the practice squad.

6b. Bernard Scott has talent. He reminds me of a taller Warrick Dunn. And stats don't lie. Just like 5 years ago, I told you guys about Derrick Ward out of little known Ottawa (Kansas), Scott has that type of potential.

7a. Fui Vakapuna - At some time in this draft, we had to get a fullback. He's got some injury history, but also on the BYU boards, they rave about his toughness, and unselfishness. Jeremi Johnson is back too, so either way, it's an upgrade over Dan Coats.

7b. Clinton McDonald dominated the EAST WEST SHRINE game. 6'2 290 with a very squatty base. I would not be surprised if he's the 4th tackle. SHIRLEY you must be kidding, I'm very serious, and Don't Call me "SHIRLEY"

7c. Freddie Brown - His best football is ahead of him, I just don't think it will be here. Too many spots are already taken.....But atleast he'll keep somebody important from getting hurt in preseason.

A++++ easily !! Any time you add 4 all americans to your team, your draft is a success!!!

[derekshank]

4. Jonathan Luigs - The knock on him is his strength ??? I don't get it.., Look at the game film of him against Marcus Thomas DT, Florida, or Glen Dorsey DT, LSU... and he's killing them!! He must know AKIDO or something because he's very adept at letting defensive tackles go where they want to go, but NOT where they need to be. He'll start, I guarantee it!

I like that last line... "very adept at letting defensive tackles go where they want to go, but NOT where they need to be."

The thing I like the most about Luigs are his smarts. Yes, I was vocal about preferring Caldwell. I think Caldwell is the better athlete, and a far better run blocker. But Luigs best attribute is how he is very aware of what is happening around him, especially when pass protecting against blitzes.

Ghiaciuc would just get bull-rushed into the backfield, which is why many are immediately concerned about his strength issues. But if as you point out, he is smart enough to allow a big DT to work to get someplace that he doesn't even need to be, that's almost as good as just overpowering them. They are out of position and can't make a play.

That is where brains come in. Work smarter not harder. Save your energy. Use your knowledge of the play to your advantage, rather than trying to overpower a guy who is strong enough to push you straight backwards.

[derekshank]

Consensus top 6.

The Eagles had the highest consensus GPA with a 3.56

The Patriots were next with a 3.44

The Jets and Packers both had a 3.33

The Giants had a 3.30

The Bengals and Lions were tied at 6th with a 3.19.

It seems like pretty much everyone talks about the fact that the Bengals took the most talented players with their first several picks... but many continue to argue that the Bengals completely ignore red flags... thus the B- instead of a B+ or A.

[membengal]

It's a wonderful catch-22 for such grousers. IF the bengals had passed on a guy because of alleged "red flags", then they would have gotten killed for passing up the more talented player. If they do what they did, take the gifts that fell to them, they are dinged for "ignoring red flags". Frankly, that's why any such considerations tend to amuse me. Take the highest rated player on your board, make no apologies, and move on. The bengals did that, and it's a good thing.

[derekshank]

It's a wonderful catch-22 for such grousers. IF the bengals had passed on a guy because of alleged "red flags", then they would have gotten killed for passing up the more talented player. If they do what they did, take the gifts that fell to them, they are dinged for "ignoring red flags". Frankly, that's why any such considerations tend to amuse me. Take the highest rated player on your board, make no apologies, and move on. The bengals did that, and it's a good thing.

Yep. Guys like Aaron Curry with no notable flaws don't last until the 3rd round. Thus, if you want a guy who is going to contribute, you've got to take some boom or bust type moves.

This year the boom seems much more likely than the bust for the first 5 rounds. I don't see much to fault here.

[HoosierCat]

Anyway... you forgot about Luigs. Maybe not the best C in the draft... but currently the best C on the roster. Also, the Punter is likely going to be far better than Larson.

That means that the first 6 players the Bengals drafted will likely have an immediate impact on the team. How do you not give that an A?

I like Luigs. He probably needs a year, though. He'll have a shot, but the Bengals have been pretty open for months about how happy they are with Cook/Santucci/Crummy, especially Kyle Cook. He would have replaced Ghiacuic last season if he hadn't gotten hurt, ironically in warmups for the game he would have started, IIRC. I expect Cook to be the starter opening day.

Huber will definitely help. While I loved the Maualuga pick, Kevin's was the only one I actually jumped up and cheered about. Scared the hell out of the dog.

As to grades, I dunno. Ask me again in three years. I do know I like the draft, I like the potential, I like the needs addressed, I like everything.

[Dadraftnick]

Pete Prisco of CBS Sports gives out draft a B+

B+

Best pick: They didn't get scared off of Andre Smith because of his post-playing issues. This is a Pro Bowl tackle.

Questionable move: Taking Rey Maualuga in the second round. He's a thumper, but he lacks the coverage skills.

Second-day gem: Third-round pick Chase Coffman is a tight end who should be a factor as a rookie in the passing game.

For a team that has been ripped for poor drafting the past decade or so, they did a really nice job. This draft might just make them a playoff team

For the rest of the NFL

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/story/11680126

[ArmyBengal]

Questionable move: Taking Rey Maualuga in the second round.

So taking arguably the best MLB in the draft, a top 10 talent, after he fell to the #38 spot in the second round is questionable ??

Someone please slap the sh*t out of that guy !!!

[NJ29]

What evidence does he have to knock Rey's coverage skills? I'm not disagreeing, I've just never seen a problem with them. He seems to take good, deep drops and he makes a lot of plays to me.

[HairOnFire]

They should ask OSU's coaching staff for their opinion of Rey's coverage skills.