I have 2 give the Bengals credit

[membengal]

This is as puzzled about a Bengals team as I have been in a long time. I have no idea what will happen when the ball is kicked off next Sunday with regard to this season.

They are cracking down on players. And they re-sign Chris Henry.

They talk about needing leadership. And cut Willie Anderson.

Chad Johnson has finished going insane and he's hurt. TJ's hamstrings are iffy. Chris Perry is being counted on to be the main back.

7-9? That was my official prediction in the prediction thread.

But, if they went 3-13? I would not be surprised.

If they went 11-5? I would not be surprised.

I have no idea how this bizarre blend of talent, injury, youth, indecisiveness, etc. etc. etc. will play out. None. It's like they have gone through the looking glass. Who knows what will happen next.

2005 seems like a long time ago.

[HoosierCat]

Yeah, that about covers it for me as well. All I'd add is that I wonder where the locker room's collective head is at.

Are they in, "hey, let's fight" mode...or "fuggit this is all screwed up we're outta here" mode?

That seems to me to be the difference between 3-13 and 11-5.

Do they give a sh*t or not?

And at this point, I have no idea.

[volcom69]

I think if they gave a crap and played hard every down this team has a chance to be good. Its a matter of them buying into Marvin and his saying to me this preseason they didnt seem to give a crap what happened so lets hope they changed there minds. Im with you ill take this season a game at a time im tired of getting excited about this football team so ill just root for them like i do every sunday and whatever happens happens its just a game. Lets hope they go out and give a 110% for the team and fans and lets see what happens.

[membengal]

Yeah, that about covers it for me as well. All I'd add is that I wonder where the locker room's collective head is at.

Are they in, "hey, let's fight" mode...or "fuggit this is all screwed up we're outta here" mode?

That seems to me to be the difference between 3-13 and 11-5.

Do they give a sh*t or not?

And at this point, I have no idea.

Word.

Damn fine point.

I have no idea, none, where the emotional level of that locker-room is at this point. I hope they are in "fight" mode, but I have seen that so rarely from this team, I am not holding my breath.

[BengalByTheBay]

Yeah, that about covers it for me as well. All I'd add is that I wonder where the locker room's collective head is at.

Are they in, "hey, let's fight" mode...or "fuggit this is all screwed up we're outta here" mode?

That seems to me to be the difference between 3-13 and 11-5.

Do they give a sh*t or not?

And at this point, I have no idea.

Word.

Damn fine point.

I have no idea, none, where the emotional level of that locker-room is at this point. I hope they are in "fight" mode, but I have seen that so rarely from this team, I am not holding my breath.

Interestingly, I don't know much about "this team." A lot of key positions are now manned by guys I know little or nothing about. Chris Perry is the starting RB. Because of the conditioning (mental not physical) of recent seasons, I would have to say that I would be mildly surprised if he was still playing by week 5. I suppose Keith Rivers and Domata Peko are as close to "leaders" of the defense as anyone. While I have no problem in theory with a good degree of turnover (especially on defense), I just don't know if I even like most of the guys on this team yet.

[kingwilly]

I've thought about this and from the outside it looks like a massive struggle between SoP and Marvin.

All the ingredients are there. Meddling, penny-pinching owner, underachieving HC, talented team that can't seem to get it: malcontents, criminals, Pro Bowl'ers, Hall of Fame talents with .$50 heads....none of whom know what their future holds.

so, yes, what is next? rebound or recoil? reward or remorse?

With this kind of drama, the bengals should have been the Hard Knocks team. Now that would be must-see TV!

[HoosierCat]

I've thought about this and from the outside it looks like a massive struggle between SoP and Marvin.

All the ingredients are there. Meddling, penny-pinching owner, underachieving HC, talented team that can't seem to get it: malcontents, criminals, Pro Bowl'ers, Hall of Fame talents with .$50 heads....none of whom know what their future holds.

so, yes, what is next? rebound or recoil? reward or remorse?

With this kind of drama, the bengals should have been the Hard Knocks team. Now that would be must-see TV!

Exactly. I have no idea which way this team will go...do the players care? Does Marvin care? Does Mikey care? I don't know what the hell is going on in Cincy right now, and frankly I don't think anyone really knows, either. We will start to find out vs. Baltimore.

[GregCook]

The Bengals are no different than other hard nosed NFL teams. If you're an all pro and its been a couple years since you were good, then you had better get real good real quick, or you're gone. Be a backup at starter pay, then you're gone.

The difference between TJ and Rudi is that TJ was an all pro last season and its been years since Rudi hit 1400 yards.

Willie is 33 and not playing like he did at 30 and a backup.

Deltha was exposed constantly during the preseason and the Bengals have younger guys just as bad, so why keep the high priced guy?

These moves were surprising because Willie and Rudi meant alot, but the guys game had diminished.

Now lets get it on.

[HAPPYJAQ]

Clearly, the Bengals are in rebuilding mode, although they won't openly say it. How else can they rationalize some of the roster moves? It's realistic to expect a 6-10 and 7-9 season, especially with the schedule and the fact they will undoubtedly will hoping that unproven or questionable players produce this year.

[volcom69]

Not so sure i would say they are in a rebuilding year why do you say that because they got rid of Willie (he was going to backup Andrews this year anyways he is getting older and might not be 100% still will miss him though). Rudi (Already said was going into the year as a backup to Perry plus he might not have been 100%) Deltha ( would have been a nickle back this year and never really seemed to give a crap about the team). They got rid of what they had to to save some money to use else where im not really seeing rebuilding here just geting rid of older players that would have backed up anyways.

[ArmyBengal]

I'll agree with the opening statement of not knowing how things are going to be from one week to the next.

The thing about saying I'm not to concerned and will take it a game at a time and not get excited is, that it takes the fun out of following football to begin with. I'm one of those guys that talks football all week long at work and give a good natured ribbing to the guys who follow other teams regardless. When my team takes a beating or does something stupid, I hear about it nonstop. I want to see a winning football team in Cinncinnati so bad I can't stand it.

Bottomline is, as a fan, I get excited about it all and am just in a position where there is nothing I can do unless I just stop following the Bengals as a whole. That and wait for the day Mike Brown no longer owns the team. By then it will be his daughter, so nothing is EVER going to change. I think I said it in another thread and I will say it again here. I'm just sickened by this team...

WHODEY !!!

[BengalszoneBilly]

But, if they went 3-13?

Mike Brown and Marvin Lewis would take a beating from the fans and the press so utterly brutal, it would make the Rodney King assault look like a school yard shoving match.

[Sandwedge]

I'm probably in the minority here, again, but I believe the cutting of Willie and Rudi were needed... Please hear me out... For years we heard about MB and his loyalty to vets.. For years our vets have pretty much coasted and did what they wanted... This just sent a message to players, you are not going to walk in here and be handed anything... I had the unfortunate duty of "ringing the bell" whenever a recruit didn't make a unit... It sucked and it pretty much destroyed the recruits pride, however it made the units much stronger.... I think we will be surprised by this team... I'm not so niave to think there won't be growing pains, but I see no reason that when it comes to the end of the season why we can't be a player in the division race...

[COB]

This just sent a message to players, you are not going to walk in here and be handed anything...

Come to think of it, I just read something about a practice today in ninety degree weather. All the regulars worked except Ndukwe. Funny how the training room empties out when chronically nicked guys are shown the door.

[chrishcovga]

I'm probably in the minority here, again, but I believe the cutting of Willie and Rudi were needed... Please hear me out... For years we heard about MB and his loyalty to vets.. For years our vets have pretty much coasted and did what they wanted... This just sent a message to players, you are not going to walk in here and be handed anything... I had the unfortunate duty of "ringing the bell" whenever a recruit didn't make a unit... It sucked and it pretty much destroyed the recruits pride, however it made the units much stronger.... I think we will be surprised by this team... I'm not so niave to think there won't be growing pains, but I see no reason that when it comes to the end of the season why we can't be a player in the division race...

You know I can honestly understand the cuts, but for a team that doesn't have much depth at the positions that were cut ( let alone the people that were cut ) it leaves you scratching your head.

Willie Anderson - If I remember correctly, Willie Anderson had to relieve Andrews during the Saints game,because he continued to get beat ?

Deltha 'ONeal - I know he's not the same player of '04 and '05. But there is a "Comfort-factor" having him as your nickelback over David Jones ( who looked like toast and french toast ) in the preseason games. And though I'm very high on Simeon Castille, he's extrememly raw, and if he's your fourth cornerback, without a clear 5th, - that is an EXTREMELY huge risk to take with teams like the Colts,Browns, on your schedule that CAN pass the ball.

Rudi - This is the biggest head scratcher... - Chris Perry has never shown that he can stay healthy. Even at Michigan he didn't finally earn the starting spot until halfway through his Junior year. I like his quickness and you guys know that I've said the " OFFENSE " needs a quicker back, but letting Perry brunt the load seems pretty Idiotic!

Ahmad Brooks - Football Intelligence ? Health ? - If he's healthy this year, then you still have to explain to me, how the defensive coaches couldn't see a place for him backing up Dhani Jones or pass rushing in different packages. - Seems to me that if you have a stupid player with all the athleticism in the world, you simplify what you ask him to do. I.E. Peter Boulware, Boulware was NO-Rocket scientist, so the coaches told him... Ok You go get the Guy taking the Snap. And you Do that every play...Seemed to work out for him??

We saved 8 million on the salary cap, the cap is 116 million, and the Collective Bargaining Agreement says that the payroll has to be 100 million.

- So it's clear to me that the reason why we've risked our depth at key positions is because Mike Brown's "pusher" has gone up on his prices of cocaine!!

[Sandwedge]

I'm probably in the minority here, again, but I believe the cutting of Willie and Rudi were needed... Please hear me out... For years we heard about MB and his loyalty to vets.. For years our vets have pretty much coasted and did what they wanted... This just sent a message to players, you are not going to walk in here and be handed anything... I had the unfortunate duty of "ringing the bell" whenever a recruit didn't make a unit... It sucked and it pretty much destroyed the recruits pride, however it made the units much stronger.... I think we will be surprised by this team... I'm not so niave to think there won't be growing pains, but I see no reason that when it comes to the end of the season why we can't be a player in the division race...

You know I can honestly understand the cuts, but for a team that doesn't have much depth at the positions that were cut ( let alone the people that were cut ) it leaves you scratching your head.

Willie Anderson - If I remember correctly, Willie Anderson had to relieve Andrews during the Saints game,because he continued to get beat ?

Deltha 'ONeal - I know he's not the same player of '04 and '05. But there is a "Comfort-factor" having him as your nickelback over David Jones ( who looked like toast and french toast ) in the preseason games. And though I'm very high on Simeon Castille, he's extrememly raw, and if he's your fourth cornerback, without a clear 5th, - that is an EXTREMELY huge risk to take with teams like the Colts,Browns, on your schedule that CAN pass the ball.

Rudi - This is the biggest head scratcher... - Chris Perry has never shown that he can stay healthy. Even at Michigan he didn't finally earn the starting spot until halfway through his Junior year. I like his quickness and you guys know that I've said the " OFFENSE " needs a quicker back, but letting Perry brunt the load seems pretty Idiotic!

Ahmad Brooks - Football Intelligence ? Health ? - If he's healthy this year, then you still have to explain to me, how the defensive coaches couldn't see a place for him backing up Dhani Jones or pass rushing in different packages. - Seems to me that if you have a stupid player with all the athleticism in the world, you simplify what you ask him to do. I.E. Peter Boulware, Boulware was NO-Rocket scientist, so the coaches told him... Ok You go get the Guy taking the Snap. And you Do that every play...Seemed to work out for him??

We saved 8 million on the salary cap, the cap is 116 million, and the Collective Bargaining Agreement says that the payroll has to be 100 million.

- So it's clear to me that the reason why we've risked our depth at key positions is because Mike Brown's "pusher" has gone up on his prices of cocaine!!

Not really a head scratcher to me... They didn't want to practice.. Willie nor Rudi or even O'neal also couldn't stay healthy...

You can count me in the group that wanted Brooks to be our beast at MLB, but you can't keep dumbing down stuff so he gets it.. That puts to much pressure on other players because he's to stupid to understand his assignments..

[jjakq27]

I'm probably in the minority here, again, but I believe the cutting of Willie and Rudi were needed... Please hear me out... For years we heard about MB and his loyalty to vets.. For years our vets have pretty much coasted and did what they wanted... This just sent a message to players, you are not going to walk in here and be handed anything... I had the unfortunate duty of "ringing the bell" whenever a recruit didn't make a unit... It sucked and it pretty much destroyed the recruits pride, however it made the units much stronger.... I think we will be surprised by this team... I'm not so niave to think there won't be growing pains, but I see no reason that when it comes to the end of the season why we can't be a player in the division race...

This just sent a message to players, you are not going to walk in here and be handed anything...

Come to think of it, I just read something about a practice today in ninety degree weather. All the regulars worked except Ndukwe. Funny how the training room empties out when chronically nicked guys are shown the door.

I think that was the knock on LeBeau and Coslet before Marvin got here. Unfortunately I think guys were taking advantage of the situation. I for one am glad that he is trying to regain some control of things if this was his intention.

The jury is still out on Marvin's tenure here but I don't want to here him say that he learned from his mistakes here, etc. a few years from now when he is somewhere else. Hopefully he got everyone's attention and he has guys in that locker room that are committed to his program.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

I'm probably in the minority here, again, but I believe the cutting of Willie and Rudi were needed... Please hear me out... For years we heard about MB and his loyalty to vets.. For years our vets have pretty much coasted and did what they wanted... This just sent a message to players, you are not going to walk in here and be handed anything... I had the unfortunate duty of "ringing the bell" whenever a recruit didn't make a unit... It sucked and it pretty much destroyed the recruits pride, however it made the units much stronger.... I think we will be surprised by this team... I'm not so niave to think there won't be growing pains, but I see no reason that when it comes to the end of the season why we can't be a player in the division race...

I wouldn't have minded those cuts 6 months ago when they could have done something useful with the money. As it is, it smells like either desperation or incompetence.

[Ænigma]

Only time will tell what this team has in store for its fans. We've been through alot this off season with the players, Chad wanting to leave, Carson bashing Ohio State, Injuries, Cuts etc. Maybe this is a sign that its finally our time to win. Fingers crossed and maybe toes.

[HoosierCat]

I wouldn't have minded those cuts 6 months ago when they could have done something useful with the money. As it is, it smells like either desperation or incompetence.

If I were a cynical bastard, I might think that they didn't make these cuts six months ago because that would have left them without their favorite excuse -- OMG $8 million cap hit!!! No way!!! -- for not trading Chad.

If I were a cynical bastard.

[chandon]

I agree with a lot of you on here, and with the opening post.

I just don't what they are going to do this year.

But I think I know why.

It's not really about the players or the schemes or the tactics...or even who stays healthy or not.

It's about the leadership.

Every manager / coach who has ever run a team in a competetive environment has to make the best of what he / she has got. If look at the really successful managers / coaches thoughout history in sport you will see people who are natural leaders who inspire / lead / discipline / motivate their team into a winning side. Regardless of the base talent level you see them get the best out of their players consistantly, and you see a mutual respect built on trust. The owners trust the coaches and let them get on with it. The coaches trust the owners to provide the funds as necessary, and the players see a bond between the two and buy into it. That breeds success.

We don't have that here.

This is why I don't see the Bengals as a consistant top-flight football team anytime in the near future. ML and SoP just don't seem to be on the same page. For whatever reasons. Don't they realise the players see this too? And if ML cannot and will not get into motivating this team then he is failing as a Manager / HC right from the start.

Because that is his job.

So they may go 11-5..or it could be the opposite end of the scale...or it could be 8-8. Who knows.

I will watch and support and scream and shout.

Business as usual I guess!

[TippCityRick]

I'm not so sure I agree. The cuts this weekend had a lot to do with changing the leadership roles in the lockeroom. To lead you must be present and neither Rudi nor Willie were present much last year. I think they had both become distractions that weren't producing at a level that much better than their competition . . . ie Chad is a distraction (maybe the ultimate distraction) but he produces at a high level. I believe Marvin wants the leadership mix to change to Palmer / Hoosh / Witworth / Peko / Rivers and this was the way to do it.

[BengalByTheBay]

I'm not so sure I agree. The cuts this weekend had a lot to do with changing the leadership roles in the lockeroom. To lead you must be present and neither Rudi nor Willie were present much last year. I think they had both become distractions that weren't producing at a level that much better than their competition . . . ie Chad is a distraction (maybe the ultimate distraction) but he produces at a high level. I believe Marvin wants the leadership mix to change to Palmer / Hoosh / Witworth / Peko / Rivers and this was the way to do it.

Interesting points. Somewhat lost in this is the fact that Willie has a history of making veiled complaints in the media, nothing rising to the Dillon or CJ level, but he's always been good for a quote or two. Although I still don't know why they feel comfortable with Andrews (if they even do) I suppose it was simply too much $$ at the position.

[HairOnFire]

This is as puzzled about a Bengals team as I have been in a long time.

Agreed. However, in my case the uncertainty isn't linked to the typical optimism that comes with a new season. And that's due to an unshakable core belief that this is a team in transition, and isn't really prepared or built to win now.

They are cracking down on players. And they re-sign Chris Henry.

IMHO the last few months have featured an odd and almost unfathomable mixture of moves made with one eye on the present and another on the future. Obviously that's true of all teams, but most teams have a better sense of who they are and where they're going. As for the Bengals, not so much.

They talk about needing leadership. And cut Willie Anderson.

Months ago I wrote about the wisdom of not paying Anderson the multi-million dollar roster bonus that kept him in stripes for a few more months....an idea that wasn't greeted with any support. For their part, the Bengals disagreed and paid a handsome price for the opportunity to kick Willies tires one more time. So debate the wisdom of their actions all you want, but if I'm second guessing this one it's because Anderson wasn't cast off earlier than he was. Because for me the real issue wasn't whether Anderson could show he could still play a few pre-season drives at a higher level than Stacey Andrews. The issue was if Anderson had any future with this team after this season.

Chris Perry is being counted on to be the main back.

Isn't this exactly what most Bengal fans have been screaming for? Let's face it, this team needs answers about the future of it's RB corp, and for years the biggest questions it has faced revolve around Chris Perry. So lets get some answers. After all, 2009 will be here sooner than you might think. As for letting Rudi go, he coud no longer offer what had been his greatest asset. Durability.

I have no idea how this bizarre blend of talent, injury, youth, indecisiveness, etc. etc. etc. will play out. None. It's like they have gone through the looking glass.

I'm no more optimistic about this teams chances this year than I was earlier, but I can finally admit that my interest level has improved.

So there's that.

[Spor_tees]

Hair, how can you go into the season counting on a guy that is in the last year of his contract. Let's say for example that Chris Perry has an above average season. Knowing how the NFL works, there will be a team out there willing to throw big money at him based solely off one productive season. This leaves the Bengals in quite a quandary, do they let Chris Perry become an unrestricted free agent at that point, or do they franchise a guy who has only produced for the most part, only one season. Personally I can't see justifying a free agent tag that guarantees top 5 runningback money to a one year wonder. Sadly, there really isn't anyone behind Perry at this point on the roster that has the potential to be a franchise back in the future. This season is a lose-lose situation for the Bengals. If Perry has a good year, he will undoubtedly price himself out of the Bengal's range, and if he has a bad season, the Bengals will pretty much suffer from it. There really isn't a good outcome for the Bengals at the runningback position beyond this year. Best case scenario, the Bengals play badly enough that they can draft Wells from OSU, or they find someone willing to trade a young runningback with some potential for Chad Johnson.