I think it's obvious who want to win and who doesn't

[walzav29]

If you TRULY care about winning you go to the OTA's. I thought about TJ wanted to stay with his kids, but if he wanted this team to get over the hump he would be there. That is true leadership. I really hope the new wideouts turn out to be good.

[NJ29]

God, enough with the TJ bulls**t. He's still working out, and he didn't show up last year either (you know, that year where he led the NFL in catches?). The man leaves it all on the field, and that's more than can be said for a lot of the guys on the team. It's a non-story.

[walzav29]

How'd that work out for the team last year? TJ had his best season ever, but maybe if he was helping with the other receivers they wouldn't have been clueless when it came to filling in for Chris Henry. Is this a team sport?

[HAPPYJAQ]

Frankly, I am tired of both Chad and T.J. T.J. is a TOUGH player, but he doesn't appear to be much of a TEAM player. Carson Palmer is obviously upset that the two are not here and you have to ask yourself why is it that the best player on the team (Carson) can show up to camp without making excuses and others don't? Teams win championships in the offseason; it doesn't start in Week 1. I really don't care about stats because we had 2 Pro Bowl receivers and STILL finished 7-9. Being a leader on a team is about leading by example, helping and working with teammates and continuing to be the "coach on the field". You never heard about Jerry Rice or other HOF receivers missing camp, voluntary or not. I still remember the final game last year against the 1 win Dolphins in the blowout where T.J. went all out to catch the pass that would have given him the reception title. I also remember him having "alligato arms" in San Francisco and against Pittsburgh in games that mattered. Good riddance to them both, as they are not players that our rookies should model themselves after.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

Teams win championships in the offseason; it doesn't start in Week 1. I really don't care about stats because we had 2 Pro Bowl receivers and STILL finished 7-9. Being a leader on a team is about leading by example, helping and working with teammates and continuing to be the "coach on the field". You never heard about Jerry Rice or other HOF receivers missing camp, voluntary or not. I still remember the final game last year against the 1 win Dolphins in the blowout where T.J. went all out to catch the pass that would have given him the reception title. I also remember him having "alligato arms" in San Francisco and against Pittsburgh in games that mattered. Good riddance to them both, as they are not players that our rookies should model themselves after.

I'm not buying it. I've never, ever seen TJ get alligator arms. I've seen him drop occasional passes but not because of feared contact. I also saw him absolutely carry the team last year - it was definitely not his fault they were 7-9.

He did just fine missing OTAs last year. If he wants to spend a little more time with his family but shows up to camp ready to go, that's fine with me.

As for training the other receivers - that's the coaches' job. We didn't have that much behind Henry, TJ being at camp wasn't going to make an all-pro out of that turdpile. I'm not buying for a second that TJ spending an extra week or two with those guys would have made a difference.

I really, really don't understand the "blame TJ" thing now.

[HoosierCat]

When it comes to wide receivers, I think this post on espn's Hashmarks blog is on the money:

Johnson, T.J. flap comes with WR territory

April 17, 2008 3:41 PM

Posted by ESPN.com's Pat Yasinskas

Chad Johnson wants out of Cincinnati and T.J. Houshmandzadeh is showing him the door.

This is nothing new. They're just wide receivers being ... well, wide receivers.

"The wide receiver is a very special human being. He shares many features with actors and movie stars. He is narcissistic and vain and basically a loner."

That's a quote from a story I wrote a few years back while I was working for The Charlotte Observer. It comes from Dr. Arnold J. Mandell, who, long ago, was employed as a psychiatrist for the San Diego Chargers. Back in 1973, Mandell was asked by Chargers coach Harland Svare to come up with a psychological profile for each position.

Mandell used handwriting analysis and observations of players to come up with his analysis and he nailed it when it came to wide receivers.

Here's another excerpt from Mandell:

"They love to be the center of attention. They need to be noticed. They have an imperviousness in that they don't seem to mind criticism about being like that. All players want the respect of fellow players. Showing off usually is not an admired characteristic by most players, but by wide receivers it is very admired."

Think about it for a second. Mandell pretty much described Johnson, Houshmandzadeh, Terrell Owens, Randy Moss, Steve Smith, Joe Horn, Muhsin Muhammad, Keyshawn Johnson and the list goes on. Think back even further: Otis Taylor, Tony Hill, Mark Duper, Mark Clayton and Michael Irvin -- they all were flamboyant and more than a little self-centered.

Marvin Harrison and Jerry Rice might not completely fit the profile. But there must be something about the position that requires arrogance and ego because most of the great ones have plenty of both. That comes with more than its share of on-field success -- and off-field headaches.

[Rob]

You wonder why Chad wants to leave? Give these guy some breaks people....if the media reads this they will turn it in to T.J. sucks, T.J. wants out, blah blah b.s.

Treat people this way and soon T.J. will think everyone hates him and wants him out. Post with some respect to the players and their lives, they are people, not drones or football players, but they are people, like you and me. He is away from his family all season long and even months before the season start, don't try to make him give up his family in the summer too when he doesn't have to anymore.

T.J. has earned to miss these workouts guys.

[HAPPYJAQ]

Teams win championships in the offseason; it doesn't start in Week 1. I really don't care about stats because we had 2 Pro Bowl receivers and STILL finished 7-9. Being a leader on a team is about leading by example, helping and working with teammates and continuing to be the "coach on the field". You never heard about Jerry Rice or other HOF receivers missing camp, voluntary or not. I still remember the final game last year against the 1 win Dolphins in the blowout where T.J. went all out to catch the pass that would have given him the reception title. I also remember him having "alligato arms" in San Francisco and against Pittsburgh in games that mattered. Good riddance to them both, as they are not players that our rookies should model themselves after.

I'm not buying it. I've never, ever seen TJ get alligator arms. I've seen him drop occasional passes but not because of feared contact. I also saw him absolutely carry the team last year - it was definitely not his fault they were 7-9.

He did just fine missing OTAs last year. If he wants to spend a little more time with his family but shows up to camp ready to go, that's fine with me.

As for training the other receivers - that's the coaches' job. We didn't have that much behind Henry, TJ being at camp wasn't going to make an all-pro out of that turdpile. I'm not buying for a second that TJ spending an extra week or two with those guys would have made a difference.

I really, really don't understand the "blame TJ" thing now.

I'm not saying "blame T.J" at all. All I am saying is that he is not being a team player. The voluntaries are a time to develop the chemistry between QB's and WR's. Before camp, is the only time that this can be simulated while being monitored and coached by Bengals coaches. If you remember early last year when the passing game was out of sync, it could be said that it was at least part of the reason the Bengals lost 4 of the first 5 games. If they beat Seattle, Kansas City and Cleveland (games the Bengals should have won), they finish 10-6 and go to the playoffs. Football is a team game; it's not about stats or individual accomplishments. I call that The Madden/EA Sports factor, where fans think that individual stats should lead to wins or indicate how well/poorly a player is performing. If Cris Carter doesn't take Moss (Rice take T.O., Bruce take Holt, etc.) under their wings on and off the field, there is less of a likelihood that they develop into the Hall of Famers they are. Leadership on the team is more than letting a younger player emulate your stance, patterns or first-down gestures; It's being an example for what the coaches and organization expect the others to follow (and not just on Sunday).

[ShulaSteakhouse]

Hell if it's ok for TJ, why don't the rest of the veterans just not show up? Who needs any of them? Palmer can stay home too then, surely he's earned enough cred to do that too right?

[mgilgris]

I agree with Shula, heck Carson could do the same thing. It is not about one player coming in productive. The problem with this team is there are too many players who are looking out for themselves. This is a team game, and having ALL of the TEAM there is more important.

The bengals have been missing this team mentality. Yes TJ had a great year last year, but the problem is that when you have one of your best players not included in the voluntary workout then there is (1) no leadership and (2) no team mentality. Do you ever hear H. Ward or other true team leaders working out by themselves??? No because working out by yourself is the ME instead of the TEAM.

While the argument that he wants to be closer to his kids is compeling, the guy could bring his kids to cincinnati. This players are not normal individuals. They have the assets to fly their family in every weekend (if the kids still have school) or otherwise just have the kids go to school in cincinnati.

This is and will be the problems with the bengals, no leaders and no team mentality.

Anyone who disagrees has bought into their B.S. These guys are PAID to play a game that many of us love and would play for free with their abilities.

Go to minicamp be a leader, then when minicamp closes go home and spend time with your family, and if your a real class act donate your minicamp bonus to people who need it like people in mynamar etc.

[BersMrnsT]

It is what it is. Will it affect TJ's overall productivity very much? Probably not. That being said, there's no denying that TJ's presence would be a welcomed one as he'd provide a needed dose of leadership, and he would be sending a message to the rest of the team about dedication to making next season a successful one (and if nothing else, it'd give him and Carson a chance to get some work in together). So while it is clearly his prerogative not to go, his decision just adds to the evergoing struggle of creating a winning and team-oriented environment amongst the team and its newcomers.

[volcom69]

Yep i agree if you want to win you show up for your teammates who count on you. Even if you dont do much at least your there giving a helping hand to those who need it or want it.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

I'm not saying "blame T.J" at all. All I am saying is that he is not being a team player. The voluntaries are a time to develop the chemistry between QB's and WR's. Before camp, is the only time that this can be simulated while being monitored and coached by Bengals coaches.

TJ and Carson have played together for 4 years (5 if you count his rookie year). They spent a lot of time together this offseason. They'll have all camp to work on it. It's not that big a deal.

If you remember early last year when the passing game was out of sync, it could be said that it was at least part of the reason the Bengals lost 4 of the first 5 games.

TJ's catches in the first 5 games: 9,8,10,12,8. TJ's not the reason they lost - he did his part and more.

Football is a team game; it's not about stats or individual accomplishments. I call that The Madden/EA Sports factor, where fans think that individual stats should lead to wins or indicate how well/poorly a player is performing.

Obviously, but to say that these two weeks in May end up dramatically affecting the Bengals' passing game in January - I'm not buying it. They've played together 4 years. They'll be fine.

If Cris Carter doesn't take Moss (Rice take T.O., Bruce take Holt, etc.) under their wings on and off the field, there is less of a likelihood that they develop into the Hall of Famers they are. Leadership on the team is more than letting a younger player emulate your stance, patterns or first-down gestures; It's being an example for what the coaches and organization expect the others to follow (and not just on Sunday).

From what I can tell TO never listened to anybody in his life, including the greatest player of all time. Holt developed fine in the Rams' system. I'm confident that TJ will have plenty of time to spend with the young 'uns and turn them into mean SOBs.

I'm pretty sure this is a big deal out of nothing.

[BengalChamps]

I wonder if TJ's presence at OTA's would help the DB's?

The rookie WR's have coaches but nothing they say will mean as much as help from a veteran like TJ.

Tj's me first attitude is different than Stincho's but it still doesnt help.

FOOTBALL IS A TEAM GAME!

Tj's attitude does not help this TEAM.

[BengalszoneBilly]

If you TRULY care about winning you go to the OTA's.

Well give some grief to Thurman too. Send it in care of his grandmothers funeral home.

[GregCook]

I agree with Shula, heck Carson could do the same thing. It is not about one player coming in productive. The problem with this team is there are too many players who are looking out for themselves. This is a team game, and having ALL of the TEAM there is more important.

The bengals have been missing this team mentality. Yes TJ had a great year last year, but the problem is that when you have one of your best players not included in the voluntary workout then there is (1) no leadership and (2) no team mentality. Do you ever hear H. Ward or other true team leaders working out by themselves??? No because working out by yourself is the ME instead of the TEAM.

While the argument that he wants to be closer to his kids is compeling, the guy could bring his kids to cincinnati. This players are not normal individuals. They have the assets to fly their family in every weekend (if the kids still have school) or otherwise just have the kids go to school in cincinnati.

This is and will be the problems with the bengals, no leaders and no team mentality.

Anyone who disagrees has bought into their B.S. These guys are PAID to play a game that many of us love and would play for free with their abilities.

Go to minicamp be a leader, then when minicamp closes go home and spend time with your family, and if your a real class act donate your minicamp bonus to people who need it like people in mynamar etc.

Fact, OTA's are voluntary.

Fact, many vets don't attend the early OTA's throughout the NFL.

Fact, the sky doesn't fall because of it.

Fact, the first NFL game isn't until August, its now May.

Whether the Bengals win in 2008 has nothing to do with OTA's in May, IMHO.

[mgilgris]

Fact: The bengals season last year was horrible

Fact: The veteran leadership is horrible

Fact: Having your veterans in camp sends a good message

Fact: PRACTICE MAKES PERFECT

Fact: Timing with a QB and a WR is IMPORTANT

Not so much a fact: When a team is struggling with all the B.S. that is going on around them (Henry, Chad), they need all the veteran leadership they can get as earlier as they can get it. If TJ was truly a leader he would lead by example and get his butt into the voluntary work outs.

Look at the message boards, we talk about stuff that has nothing to do with football 80% of the time. Do you not think that all the outside stuff effects the teams play on the field?? Get in camp, dont be a distraction and play the game.

[TJJackson]

True enough - how many times last year did we hear that Carson and Chad were "not on the same page"?

Reps are important

TJ should be here, agreed. Unfortunately, as a voluntary activity, it can't be forced.

[Oldcat]

True enough - how many times last year did we hear that Carson and Chad were "not on the same page"?

Reps are important

TJ should be here, agreed. Unfortunately, as a voluntary activity, it can't be forced.

But Chad showed up for the Voluntaries. TJ is the one who did not.

[HoosierCat]

I'm pretty sure this is a big deal out of nothing.

Maybe it is...maybe it isn't. There's been plenty of discussion among Bengals fans recently about the trouble you get into when there are more than one set of rules for players. TJ can blow off the voluntaries because, well, he's TJ. If some third-string special teams LB did this, you know that in the coaches' book that guy's chances of making the final roster just slipped, "voluntary" workouts or no.

We also talk a lot about veteran leadership, or rather the noticeable lack thereof, on this team. I find it kind of sad that many years we end up talking about how this or that rookie will be that leader. Examples include Pollack and Rivers. This year, many of our most veteran players, not just TJ, are someplace else. Again. Compare that with, say, the Ravens, for whom the only vets absent were Suggs (contract dispute) and Ogden (said to be retiring).

Yeah, I know, everyone has their reasons, some more compelling than others. But in the final analysis this is a team that's gone from 11-5 and the playoffs to 8-8 to 7-9 and is staring at a tough 2008 sked and predictions that even 7 wins may be hard to reach. Given that, I just find the "it's no big deal" line of thinking less than compelling. Maybe that wouldn't be the case if this team had fewer question marks and an easier road this fall, but they don't, and I wonder where the sense of urgency is.

[Oldcat]

Fact: The bengals season last year was horrible

Fact: The veteran leadership is horrible

Fact: Having your veterans in camp sends a good message

Fact: PRACTICE MAKES PERFECT

Fact: Timing with a QB and a WR is IMPORTANT

If our veteran leadership is so horrible, perhaps its best they dont show up and corrupt the Rookies. And the value of timing in May

is questionable, when the games are in September.

We have a whole mess of new and raw recievers to evaluate before camp to fill Henrys and possibly Chad's slots.

TJ will make the team, so theres not a lot to learn there. Better to work on the other guys in this camp, and see if

any of them are worth keeping.

And TJ has earned the right, by showing up for all those years, and being even better last year when he took off.

I'd like him to show, but I'm not going to burn him for it.

If you have to flame someone, flame Henry for being an idiot, or Chad for being a jerk. We can use another Chad thread, can't we?

[HoosierCat]

And TJ has earned the right, by showing up for all those years, and being even better last year when he took off.

I'd like him to show, but I'm not going to burn him for it.

And I doubt anyone else would either -- if the Bengals had, say, won 10 or 11 games and made the playoffs in 2007.

But they didn't. They went 7-9. Yes, TJ put up great personal stats. But the team took its second consecutive step backwards. I think that makes it very difficult for some people, myself included, to issue routine "benefits of the doubt" to any player's behavior.

Didn't we hear a whole lot just after the season about how disappointed all the players were and how frustrated everybody was and all that? Yet what changes in behavior are we seeing? Is TJ here? Willie or Levi? Deltha? And of course Chad's being an ass.

Same old same old is fine if you're a perennial playoff contender. When you are one-winning-season-in-the-last-five, not so much.

[TJJackson]

His absence also means one less veteran voice to mentor\coach the newbs

His absence means the DBs are practicing against 3rd/4th string receivers, which can't help their development

His absence means that revisions\tweaks to the offense everyone else already knows due to the OTAs are not known to him. Several folks will have to stop and review the same material with im personally, for his benefit alone - time better spent elsewhere - when he could have picked up the new material at the same time everyone else is getting it.

His absence fortifies the "there are rules for everyone on the team except Chad and TJ, and seperate ones for them" nonsense.

His absence means that revisions\tweaks to the offense everyone else already knows due to the OTAs are not known to him. Several folks will have to stop and review the same material with him personally, for his benefit alone - time better spent elsewhere - when he could have picked up the new material at the same time everyone else is getting it.

His absence proclaims louder than any words: I am all about me, not about my team.

Hoosier is right - we need team-oriented guys, not individuals

[rwalling]

His absence also means one less veteran voice to mentor\coach the newbs

His absence means the DBs are practicing against 3rd/4th string receivers, which can't help their development

His absence means that revisions\tweaks to the offense everyone else already knows due to the OTAs are not known to him. Several folks will have to stop and review the same material with im personally, for his benefit alone - time better spent elsewhere - when he could have picked up the new material at the same time everyone else is getting it.

His absence fortifies the "there are rules for everyone on the team except Chad and TJ, and seperate ones for them" nonsense.

His absence means that revisions\tweaks to the offense everyone else already knows due to the OTAs are not known to him. Several folks will have to stop and review the same material with him personally, for his benefit alone - time better spent elsewhere - when he could have picked up the new material at the same time everyone else is getting it.

His absence proclaims louder than any words: I am all about me, not about my team.

Hoosier is right - we need team-oriented guys, not individuals

Couldn't agree more. Apply this to winning organizations. You think Tom Brady blows off OTAs? LT? Ray Lewis? Peyton? Roethlisberger? Uh, no. Winning is about TEAMwork, not individual work.

[Thurmanation]

Fact: PRACTICE MAKES PERFECT

Practice does not make perfect, you've obviously never been on a losing football team before.

PERFECT PRACTICE MAKES PERFECT

Just thought id correct you.