Mike Brown on scouting

[GregCook]

http://www.bengals.com/news/news.asp?story_id=6589

I agree with some of this about finding good late round picks with a very small staff. What is striking is Brown not even hinting that the team should do better. Good enough is enough for him. He doesn't concede that his team might do better in player picks by adding just 1 more scout. For a businessman owning a company worth a few hundred million, its astounding to me that he doesn't address how he could do better.

[generaldreedle]

Mike Brown does not care about putting a winning product on the field. As long as all the seats in PBS are filled every Sunday, that to him is a winning season.

[cincyhokie]

http://www.bengals.com/news/news.asp?story_id=6589

I agree with some of this about finding good late round picks with a very small staff. What is striking is Brown not even hinting that the team should do better. Good enough is enough for him. He doesn't concede that his team might do better in player picks by adding just 1 more scout. For a businessman owning a company worth a few hundred million, its astounding to me that he doesn't address how he could do better.

You hit the nail on the head. He's actually giddy as hell that he's accomplished what he has with a small staff. To him as a business man, he is doing the best job of any team. He's saving money AND he providing decent results. He loves the job he's doing.

He has no desire to see what adding 1-2 more scouts would do. Being top 10 is ok with him.

This article is the PERFECT example of the Mike Brown mentality.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

Yes if his drafting and scouting are so darn good - where's the results?

They mentioned lower round picks like Guychick, Andrews, Marvin White and Nduke - 2 of whom are ROOKIES so of course they're going to be on the roster for a couple of years at least. Geesh. And who said Guychick or Andrews were any good? The Bengals? I don't see them getting any praise outside of Bungaldom.

Maybe the problem is they keep too many players they draft who aren't very good? (Justin Smith, Ratliff, Caleb Miller, Rucker for starters) Also that # could change if they let a guy or two go this off-season (Madeiu, Tab). They also hold on to guys who are constantly hurt or suspended (Henry, Odell, Rucker, Henderson, Fanene, Keift).

Just a spin job from Brown during season ticket renewal time.

I'm not buying any of it because I don't see the results in their record. They aren't winning, and a # of their current drafted players just aren't that good.

[James_Brooks21]

Yes if his drafting and scouting are so darn good - where's the results?

They mentioned lower round picks like Guychick, Andrews, Marvin White and Nduke - 2 of whom are ROOKIES so of course they're going to be on the roster for a couple of years at least. Geesh. And who said Guychick or Andrews were any good? The Bengals? I don't see them getting any praise outside of Bungaldom.

Maybe the problem is they keep too many players they draft who aren't very good? (Justin Smith, Ratliff, Caleb Miller, Rucker for starters) Also that # could change if they let a guy or two go this off-season (Madeiu, Tab). They also hold on to guys who are constantly hurt or suspended (Henry, Odell, Rucker, Henderson, Fanene, Keift).

Just a spin job from Brown during season ticket renewal time.

I'm not buying any of it because I don't see the results in their record. They aren't winning, and a # of their current drafted players just aren't that good.

I don't know who nominated Marvin White and Nduke being good, Ohalete and Artrell Hawkins had interceptions that doesn't mean they are good. The jury is still out on those two they have not proved anything yet, give me a year of them starting and the Bengals pass defense improving and then you can brag on them. Who have we drafted in the last five years that went to the pro bowl? How many playoff games have these guys you drafted won? This guy is killing me we made the playoffs one time in the last seventeen years and you are bragging about our scouts are kidding me.

[HoosierCat]

What is striking is Brown not even hinting that the team should do better. Good enough is enough for him.

Yup. 15th out of 32 on a budget? Mike's cool with that.

[BZoner]

My fav part of this "we don't need no stinking scouts" article.

Robert Craft, on buying the pats had dinner with son of brown to "pick his brains" on how to run a successful football team.

Fortunately for the once long suffering pats fans he obviously didn't take too much away from the meeting.

[Kazkal]

I don't know who nominated Marvin White and Nduke being good, Ohalete and Artrell Hawkins had interceptions that doesn't mean they are good. The jury is still out on those two

Ohalete Made you wanna beat your head in against a wall,White & Duke don't.

[BengalszoneBilly]

My fav part of this "we don't need no stinking scouts" article.

Robert Craft, on buying the pats had dinner with son of brown to "pick his brains" on how to run a successful football team.

Fortunately for the once long suffering pats fans he obviously didn't take too much away from the meeting.

Is that a joke?

[James_Brooks21]

I don't know who nominated Marvin White and Nduke being good, Ohalete and Artrell Hawkins had interceptions that doesn't mean they are good. The jury is still out on those two

Ohalete Made you wanna beat your head in against a wall,White & Duke don't.

I'm hoping that they don't but we have not yet had to depend on them from the start of the season, once they really got good playing time this season the season was already dead and we had no expectations. Let them start from game one and then we can judge them. I'm still hoping that we can sneak Zibikowski in round 3 our maybe we can get an extra second round pick and get him. If the Bengals can do that with Ndukwe they can have Zibikowski in the probowl, because Zibikowski was clearly the better player at Notre Dame.

[BengalszoneBilly]

I don't know who nominated Marvin White and Nduke being good, Ohalete and Artrell Hawkins had interceptions that doesn't mean they are good. The jury is still out on those two

Ohalete Made you wanna beat your head in against a wall,White & Duke don't.

I'm hoping that they don't but we have not yet had to depend on them from the start of the season, once they really got good playing time this season the season was already dead and we had no expectations. Let them start from game one and then we can judge them.

These guy had to do their jobs behind a questionable defensive line. Overhaul that, and IMHO they'll be far better.

[kentjett]

I never really understood how stupid Mike Brown was until I read that article. He is too arrogant for his own good. He thinks he never makes mistakes and he is ahead of the game but he is to stubborn to realize that we are actually falling behind. He is satisfied with being in the middle of the pack. He has been running the show for around 20 years and hasn't done a damn thing, he is still living in his dads legacy and he thinks he is King s**t. I'm not trying to merge threads but his attitude is the main reason the Bengals will never get rid of Chad. Chad gets a lot of publicity which gives the Bengals media time and in turns sells tickets and merchandise. I personally want Chad on the team but I think he will always be a Bengal even if Marvin hates him. Marvin will be shown the door before Chad and thats pretty sad to say.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

I just want to ask Mike Brown how he explains not winning a playoff game in 17 F**KING YEARS. Longest streak in the NFL. What do you blame that on?

[HairOnFire]

For those of you who are blasting away with guns as empty as your minds, can I suggest you begin responding specifically to the things mentioned in the article. Because if you do that you'll quickly find that Brown is on very solid ground in almost everything he says, and in fact....actually punks each of your rants.

Go on, give it a try.

[HairOnFire]

Here, let me get you started.

" Mike Brown stands by a streamlined philosophy that has yielded 11 Pro Bowlers or alternates since 1996."

"....the 43 players the Bengals have drafted [since 2003] have played a total of 1,104 NFL games and started 525. The Bengals say that ranks them 11th and 12th, respectively in the league in those categories."

"They are higher than that in percentage of players still with the team (fifth with 67.4), percentage of players still in the NFL (fifth at 81.4 percent) and percentage of players no longer in the NFL (fifth at 18.6)."

"This is the product. Not the number of employees, but what the group as a whole produces. I would argue that we do well." --- Mike Brown

"So it is clearly a mix of veterans, free agents, scheme, coaching, continuity, injury, and, as Brown sees it, having the most important piece, the quarterback. "And we have a good one," Brown said of Carson Palmer.

"When you talk about the Bengals, I don't think anyone is saying they aren't able to find talent," said Rob Rang, senior analyst of NFLDraftScout.com. "They've made solid picks. They usually don't reach. Given their small staff, it would seem that they work well with Marvin and his coaches."

"We've had some good drafts that have been hugely impacted by injuries. We've had more than our share and they've been devastating. Not for one year or half a season, but longer. Maybe even career-ending. It's hard to explain why that has been so, but it has been." --- Mike Brown

The Bengals say they've known about the character flaws before the draft and that they simply took the gamble. No more, Lewis has been saying.

But Rang gives them high grades for second-day finds. He agrees that critics can't have it both ways.

[HairOnFire]

If there's a problem with the way the Bengals do business I'd say it's touched upon in the following, but few if any of you have ever mentioned this point in any of your meandering rants, probably because the dips**tted Paul Daugherty didn't put the thought in your heads before you staggered to your keyboards.

"There has been a media buzz that Lewis is unhappy with the personnel situation, but there is no evidence that what Lewis wants is a general manager. He seems satisfied that there are no layers between himself and the three people that incorporate the job of GM in Brown, executive vice president Katie Blackburn and vice president Troy Blackburn.

Indications are the buzz may be about adding a scout or two dedicated just to pro personnel. The Bengals are one of the few teams that don't divide their department into college and pro. There are seven other teams that don't have a pro personnel director, including the Patriots."

[HairOnFire]

More....

"The Bengals argue that it's advantageous for scouts to be well versed in both the college and pro game in order to keep perspective in judging which players can make the jump. Plus, Brown says the Bengals are one of approximately 13 NFL teams using PROSCOUT, Inc., "that we use as a starting point."

(The Bengals also use National Football Scouting, Inc. A total of 11 teams provide a scout. The other eight, including Cincinnati, pay an additional fee equivalent to the total costs of one scout in lieu of club scout costs.)"

"With the communications you have today, we don't have a scout that's not a button away," Brown said. "And we use our coaches more than maybe others do in personnel decisions."

"I don't think so," said Brown when asked if the work load is too much for the coaches. "We don't have (players) here until mid-March. "This gives them access to the pool of players they potentially could be dealing with. They want to have that. It's important that they have a voice in who comes here."

The coaches don't make half as many college visits during March and April as they did before Lewis arrived in 2003. They check out the top 10 prospects or so at their position. The scouts are on the road all fall and hit nearly every prospect.

"By the time we make the pick, we'll have six, seven, eight opinions," Mike Brown said.

This gets to the heart of Brown's management philosophy. Far from wielding an iron fist with a closed mind, Brown has a full room on draft day between all the coaches and scouts and he listens to everyone and anyone before each pick. He has the final say. But on many NFL teams, the assistant coaches and even some scouts are sitting in their own offices Draft Day watching it on TV.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

For those of you who are blasting away with guns as empty as your minds, can I suggest you begin responding specifically to the things mentioned in the article. Because if you do that you'll quickly find that Brown is on very solid ground in almost everything he says, and in fact....actually punks each of your rants.

Go on, give it a try.

I have an argument that punks everything that you and your sweetie Mike Brown says: our record since he took over is the worst in the NFL. We have no playoff wins in 17 years and only one appearance. What the hell else do you need to know?

[kingwilly]

For those of you who are blasting away with guns as empty as your minds, can I suggest you begin responding specifically to the things mentioned in the article. Because if you do that you'll quickly find that Brown is on very solid ground in almost everything he says, and in fact....actually punks each of your rants.

Go on, give it a try.

The premise here is that the Bengals do not invenst enough in scouts and player evaluations and overly involve/burden the coaches with these tasks thus leading to either lost opportunity, (ie. players that don't make the team when a different, better/more thoroughly scouted player would) or continued investment in players who are kept but do not produce at a high level, by NFL standards.

Two things:

1. The argument that the Bengals draft well based on the percentage of players either, a). still with the team, or, . still in the NFL, falls flat since it is just as likely that they keep players because they are not as demanding (comment on committment to winning?), or that they don't know talent when they find it, thus cutting a talented guy who then does well on another team.

This is the same argument college teams use when talking graduation rates: "We graduate 87% of our guys". Yeah but you went 2-9! The goal is to win, so soley based on that, the Bengals have drafted poorly in the last 17 years.

Sitting here, claiming to have a great "retention rate" for players only counts if you win. Sitting here claiming that you drafted well because even the guys you cut are still in the NFL is undercut by the idea that this team couldn't recognize their talent ot develop them, a comment on coaching.

2. The mitigating factors surrounding the nature of the game itself, like coaching, injuries, luck, etc., do take some of the heat off the front ofice. However, the "character" risk/issue, to me, is a very big one, given little play when a Red Herring like retention rates is dangled about. The issue of character is not one that has bitten the team since ML arrived, it began earlier, Dillon, Pickens, etc. with the real constant being SoP. Granted, some of these players could have turned bad once they arrived, poisoned by a team mired in losing.

Noone will dispute that injuries decimated a large chunk of potential from this season. BUT it must be noted that the front office was ill prepared, as in delayed action to address the decimated LB group as evidenced by starting Chinny and Geathers at LB, for these injuries. I feel a larger, better prepared group in the front office could more quickly address an injury plague since they could have a greater volume of reviews and advance work on available players to call. Mr. Brown does nothing to convince me, as a fan, that this club is any better prepared to address another injury outbreak. Look, other teams in the NFL overcome injuries, why can't the Bengals?

The character issue is the one that is most telling and Mr. Browns response, effectively silence, speaks volumes. This can be interpreted as just rolling the dice, knowing the guy has warts but, heck, maybe it will work out. Or, we don't have enough time with the staff we have to get a true read on this guys issues but, heck, he sure can run the deep route, draft him!

Either way, it is something that has burned this team, starting at the top. Mr. Brown's choices to utilize an "average" scouting department, who knowingly drafted high-risk players have cost this team lost opportunity with other draftable players and in game results. More/better scouts could overcome this issue with more player options and better info on the rotten apples.

Inujuries happen and other teams overcome them by having better information on available players, gained as a result of more, better scouts and player evals.

4 games over 500 after 5 years means the other stats on retention rates are really meaningless if the goal is to win. Sometimes that means changing how you do business, over-hire for a certain group, overspend to get out of the rut.

Mr. Brown says,

"Isn't that what matters?" Brown asked. "This is the product. Not the number of employees, but what the group as a whole produces. I would argue that we do well."

Sir, I would argue that the product you have "produced" is the best, most amazing piece of s**t ever made by you and your 8 or 9 people.

[cincyhokie]

As Marvin Lewis would say: "I see better than I hear." How many seasons in a row without a playoff win? That's the only numbers the fans should really care about.

[HairOnFire]

I have an argument that punks everything that you and your sweetie Mike Brown says...

I doubt it. In fact, I can almost guarantee that whatever argument you offer won't have anything to do with scouting and drafting.

We have no playoff wins in 17 years and only one appearance.

Yup, looks like I was right again. You ducked the draft/scouting debate entirely....even after I challenged you to attack the specific points being made.

What the hell else do you need to know?

Whatever I need to know I can't get from you...at least until you're willing to address the points made in the article, which I suspect none of you have any intention of doing.

And that's true because the old man just punked almost every draft and scouting rant you hide behind.

Go on...give it ANOTHER try.

[HoosierCat]

Go on, give it a try.

Why? As Brown himself notes:

Brown admits you can make numbers do whatever you want.

It's all spin. The only thing that isn't is:

One winning season in 17 years.

One Playoff appearance in 17 years.

Zero playoff victories in 17 years.

[HairOnFire]

How many seasons in a row without a playoff win? That's the only numbers the fans should really care about.

You should care about the truth enough to test your conspiracy theories. Instead, you can't be bothered to write more than a line or two when confronted with facts, rankings, and more than a dozen quotes that convincingly trash your ravings.

But no worries, right?

Because it's never difficult to find another Bengal fan who is just as lazy and bitter, ehhh?

[HairOnFire]

It's all spin. The only thing that isn't is:

One winning season in 17 years.

One Playoff appearance in 17 years.

Zero playoff victories in 17 years.

The King of Ducking leads his troops away from battle. Why am I not suprised?

Again, absolutely tons of stuff on scouting and drafting and in response all you clowns can do is duck.

Pretting telling, isn't it?

[COB]

It's all spin. The only thing that isn't is:

One winning season in 17 years.

One Playoff appearance in 17 years.

Zero playoff victories in 17 years.

Not to sound like a broken record, but since he went through the rennaisance: winning record over five year period, won the division, 7-3 versus division rival Cleveland, 7-3 versus division rival Baltimore. The 17 year record is undeniable. I just find the most recent five years a more accurate reflection of the state of the organization than what happened in 1991.