What do you think of our offseason moves so far

[combatbengal]

Well it's draft week and I can't wait to see what the Bengals do. I have to say that I'm really glad that we kept TJ, and Rudy. I'm not going to try to predict who we'll draft, but I do hope it's a def player. I do believe that this team will get over that hump this year and make the playoffs. What are your feelings about our off season so far.

[HoosierCat]

The offseason so far? Shrug. Beyond swapping out Tony Williams for Bryan Robinson (a marginal upgrade at best) they've done nothing to improve the team vs. last year.

Yes, yes, yes, I know: we'll have all of last year's wounded back, last year's rooks will have more experience, we'll have fresh talent from this Saturday's draft, etc. All of which is true...and all of which can be said for every other team in the league.

Like many, many offseasons before, we've been given big doses of happy talk...but little concrete evidence of improvement. Well, maybe this is the year all the happy talk turns out to be something more than just hot air. I certainly hope so.

But I'd trade a truckload of that hope for a Pat Williams or an Ed Hartwell or either of the Sharpers right about now, y'know?

[BengalszoneBilly]

Beyond swapping out Tony Williams for Bryan Robinson (a marginal upgrade at best) they've done nothing to improve the team vs. last year.

I view Robinson for Williams swap-out as a good step for the defensive line. Certainly not "huge" or "great" by any means, but well above the level I consider "marginal."

Don't worry though. If it does to turn out to be as little improvement as I consider the word "marginal" to define, we'll be finding out about it real fast, and they'll be hearing about it (again) from me! Loud and long.

[redsfan2]

The offseason so far? Shrug. Beyond swapping out Tony Williams for Bryan Robinson (a marginal upgrade at best) they've done nothing to improve the team vs. last year.

Yes, yes, yes, I know: we'll have all of last year's wounded back, last year's rooks will have more experience, we'll have fresh talent from this Saturday's draft, etc. All of which is true...and all of which can be said for every other team in the league.

Like many, many offseasons before, we've been given big doses of happy talk...but little concrete evidence of improvement. Well, maybe this is the year all the happy talk turns out to be something more than just hot air. I certainly hope so.

But I'd trade a truckload of that hope for a Pat Williams or an Ed Hartwell or either of the Sharpers right about now, y'know?

What he said.

[schweinhart]

Beyond swapping out Tony Williams for Bryan Robinson (a marginal upgrade at best) they've done nothing to improve the team vs. last year.

I view Robinson for Williams swap-out as a good step for the defensive line. Certainly not "huge" or "great" by any means, but well above the level I consider "marginal."

Don't worry though. If it does to turn out to be as little improvement as I consider the word "marginal" to define, we'll be finding out about it real fast, and they'll be hearing about it (again) from me! Loud and long.

Robinson looks like a decent upgrade, especially compared to the 2004 offseason when no one was brought in at DT other than a total non-factor in Askew.

Robinson and Thornton should make a halfway decent DT pair. Gotta figure either Big Duane, Powell, or Langston Moore will come in on likely passing downs for Robinson. Maybe Askew shows up this year. Shaun Smith and Terrance Martin look like the odd DTs out but I hope Smith sticks because he's a major load in the middle.

[HairOnFire]

Well, speaking only for myself I think the Bengals start each offseason with a grade of F and move up or down from there.....usually down. (((Heavy Sigh)))

Sorry, just kidding. I just wanted to see what the wet blanket thing was like. Not really feeling it though.

[skyline]

I'm very pleased with our offseason. Getting Rudi and TJ were the moves that made me happy. I think that's what set our offseason apart from quite a few other teams out there.

[The_Next_Big_Thing]

I'm holding out for the draft before making my decision. A good draft changes everything. Look at least year. We got our players from Marvin's drafting, not free agency. Yes, we signed a couple of guys, but what we DIDNT sign in free agency made the difference. We didn't sign Artrell last year, and we didn't sign the open gate we called a defensive tackle this year.

Draft another Madieu Williams caliber player this year and the offseason will be great.

Robinson, to me, allows Thornton to move away from the double teams, improving our line. Askew and Geathers would be first day picks this year, and we got them on day 2 last year with extra picks we wouldn't normally have had. I think (hope?) they will improve our line this year as they mature.

[Scottishbengal]

Holding the Offence together to remain at "status quo" is NOT an improvement. It is however an important piece of the puzzle but it only equates to not being a step backwards. Should the O upgrade their game tactically and in performances then obviously you made headway.

The addition of Robinson is not the end to the Bengals woes on the defensive side of the ball. I would have liked the Sharper deal to have been fruitful but there ya go.

Drafting rookies is usually a look to the future - how many impact players do we need on the D? How many draft picks will we use to bring in players that can make an immediate impact? It's all down to the drafts from the previous years - players need to step up and play NOW or the season will be over by the bye-week!

Sorry if I sound like the Prophet of Doom but that's the way I see it. Isn't that right Barbarian - wherever you are!!

[membengal]

Joisey, at the least please stop ignoring the fact that they kept TJ off the market and solved the long-term Rudi issue at a decent price.

Those were the two biggest issues facing this team heading into the off-season.

From that standpoint, it has been a very successful off-season. And, I think Robinson is a marked improvement from Tony Williams, but we will have to wait for camps and games to know for sure. I like it that his presence is going to allow John Thornton to return to Thornton's preferred spot in the middle and give Thornton more of a chance to be disruptive.

[HoosierCat]

Joisey, at the least please stop ignoring the fact that they kept TJ off the market and solved the long-term Rudi issue at a decent price.

I'm not. Hell, I was one of TJ's biggest advocates around here. But while keeping him and Rudi were good moves...they don't constitute an improvement. That's just holding steady. Which can probably be justified on offense, but certainly not on defense.

Now, maybe all the happy talk will come true: Webster will come back 100% and blossom into mini-Ray-Ray. Landon will become a younger, faster Jamie Sharper. Bryan Robinson stuffs the run and a more svelte John Thornton gets penetration and disrupts the middle. Geathers gets 10+ sacks. We find a hard-hitting safety to play up close and help stop the run. Tory James doesn't lose too many more steps. Deltha's really back. Etc., etc., etc.

Or maybe we just put (almost) the same guys out there and get the same (crappy) results.

[The_Next_Big_Thing]

Joisey, at the least please stop ignoring the fact that they kept TJ off the market and solved the long-term Rudi issue at a decent price.

I'm not. Hell, I was one of TJ's biggest advocates around here. But while keeping him and Rudi were good moves...they don't constitute an improvement. That's just holding steady. Which can probably be justified on offense, but certainly not on defense.

Now, maybe all the happy talk will come true: Webster will come back 100% and blossom into mini-Ray-Ray. Landon will become a younger, faster Jamie Sharper. Bryan Robinson stuffs the run and a more svelte John Thornton gets penetration and disrupts the middle. Geathers gets 10+ sacks. We find a hard-hitting safety to play up close and help stop the run. Tory James doesn't lose too many more steps. Deltha's really back. Etc., etc., etc.

Or maybe we just put (almost) the same guys out there and get the same (crappy) results.

Joisey,

You do realize that players get better with experience in the system don't you?

Keeping TJ and Rudi is an improvement, not just status quo because they are more mature than the year before. TJ will have even more confidence and Carson will have more confidence in TJ than he did at the start of last season when TJ was just another guy who hadn't played for a full year.

Keeping Rudi while lowering his cap number from the franchise tag number is an improvement because it lets you spend money elsewhere.

[Kirkendall]

Keeping Rudi while lowering his cap number from the franchise tag number is an improvement because it lets you spend money elsewhere.

Like where and what?

In comparison to the AFCN, only Pittsburgh's off-season seemed more dormant. Cleveland and Baltimore really attacked the free agency.

[HairOnFire]

In comparison to the AFCN, only Pittsburgh's off-season seemed more dormant. Cleveland and Baltimore really attacked the free agency.

I think it can be argued that Pittsburgh took a small step backward in FA. Nothing major, but the loss of Burress will likely dictate they address the WR position in the draft....underscoring how re-signing your own talent allows you to look elsewhere.

Baltimore lost a couple of good players that were quickly replaced with better ones, but they also lost Hartwell, one of those free agents that Joisey coveted so much. Isn't that a step backward? They also made major changes on the right side of their O-line that could turn out fine or quickly become a nagging concern.

Free agent warriors Cleveland has made some nice moves, but many of the things they're being complimented for relate to addition by subtraction, and I doubt they're done purging their own talent and potential. Many of those moves will dictate that the Browns address very familiar positions in the draft. Call those moves understandable if you want, but it's still spinning in place. They're also going to have to deal with new schemes and the loss of last seasons top two QB's. The Browns will probably have to draft yet another QB, and is it really so hard to picture Dilfer having a tough adjustment playing for a bad team?

Bottom Line: The argument that the moves the Bengals made don't represent improvement ignores the fact that they allow the Bengals to consider addressing other areas.

[HoosierCat]

You do realize that players get better with experience in the system don't you?

Oh, yes, I do. And you realize that the same can be said for Ben Roethlisberger and Troy Polamalu and Ed Reed and most of the other players around the league, don't you? Net-net, it's not a competitive advantage; we don't get better relative to the rest of the field, we just hold steady. Which is great if you're 15-1 Pitt but questionable if you're 8-8 Cincy.

[bengalboomer7]

We were 8-8 last year. We only have to marginally get better to make the playoffs anyway. It means a lot that the rookies got some experience and we get a lot of injured players returning. I am very happy with our offseason because we kept our core, made a marginally improvement at a neccessary position, and given Marvin his third draft to work with(and got 17 roster spots in the last two years from his drafts) Call me an optimist, but I didnt think that much needed to be done in the first place. If we improve enough to eek out some of those close games like last year then we'll be money come January! :player:

[redsfan2]

Joisey, at the least please stop ignoring the fact that they kept TJ off the market and solved the long-term Rudi issue at a decent price.

I'm not. Hell, I was one of TJ's biggest advocates around here. But while keeping him and Rudi were good moves...they don't constitute an improvement. That's just holding steady. Which can probably be justified on offense, but certainly not on defense.

Now, maybe all the happy talk will come true: Webster will come back 100% and blossom into mini-Ray-Ray. Landon will become a younger, faster Jamie Sharper. Bryan Robinson stuffs the run and a more svelte John Thornton gets penetration and disrupts the middle. Geathers gets 10+ sacks. We find a hard-hitting safety to play up close and help stop the run. Tory James doesn't lose too many more steps. Deltha's really back. Etc., etc., etc.

Or maybe we just put (almost) the same guys out there and get the same (crappy) results.

Got to go with Joisey on this one. Keeping your own players that have proven themselves should be a given ( like it is with any other winning team in the NFL ) and not a reason for celebration. Confusing doing that with improving the team just shows how low the expectations have gone.

Drafting well is great, but you need older .... established guys in lead roles on the team to help the rooks out. ( see Patriots )

As far as players improving with experience ...... we have about 17 guys who used to play in Cincinnati that can debunk that theory to anyones satisfaction.

Choose from Klingler to Smith to anyone you want going back about 10 years or so.

I'm done now.

[skyline]

Keeping your own players that have proven themselves should be a given ( like it is with any other winning team in the NFL ).

Should be a given, yes...but it seems to me as if more and more teams are having a hard time doing this. The ones that don't lose a lot of their proven players, as you said, are the winning teams. It's good to see Cincinnati following that mold rather than the tactic of many other teams out there that seem to rely so heavily on the free agent market.

[Kirkendall]

Keeping your own players that have proven themselves should be a given ( like it is with any other winning team in the NFL ).

Should be a given, yes...but it seems to me as if more and more teams are having a hard time doing this. The ones that don't lose a lot of their proven players, as you said, are the winning teams. It's good to see Cincinnati following that mold rather than the tactic of many other teams out there that seem to rely so heavily on the free agent market.

Now it's time to prove it. A lot rides on the 2005 season, IMHO, in terms of expectations.

[redsfan2]

Keeping your own players that have proven themselves should be a given ( like it is with any other winning team in the NFL ).

Should be a given, yes...but it seems to me as if more and more teams are having a hard time doing this. The ones that don't lose a lot of their proven players, as you said, are the winning teams. It's good to see Cincinnati following that mold rather than the tactic of many other teams out there that seem to rely so heavily on the free agent market.

I agree ... to that point. You keep your best players on the team with rewards for doing well. Shows the new guys what they have in store for them when they produce and gives them Positive role models. Importance of that can't be overstated. At the same time, you can't sit on your thumb and ignore holes on your team that could be filled ..... for the most part in the interim by Quality free agents.

Now can you build a team of free agents ????????? Closest thing I can think of off hand would be George Allens Redskins in the 70's nicknamed the Over the Hill Gang ... for obvious reasons. Put a good team together by sacrificing picks that actually did pretty good for a couple of years ... before it went straight to hell on greased rails.

All's not lost. Like you said, we're doing the first part. Now all we have to do is the second. We've got the makings of a really good team here that is going to make some noise over the next couple of years. A good .... note good, FA here and there would just help shore things up while it finishes taking shape.

But that's just what I think .... that's all.

[skyline]

Keeping your own players that have proven themselves should be a given ( like it is with any other winning team in the NFL ).

Should be a given, yes...but it seems to me as if more and more teams are having a hard time doing this. The ones that don't lose a lot of their proven players, as you said, are the winning teams. It's good to see Cincinnati following that mold rather than the tactic of many other teams out there that seem to rely so heavily on the free agent market.

I agree ... to that point. You keep your best players on the team with rewards for doing well. Shows the new guys what they have in store for them when they produce and gives them Positive role models. Importance of that can't be overstated. At the same time, you can't sit on your thumb and ignore holes on your team that could be filled ..... for the most part in the interim by Quality free agents.

Now, that I agree with. I think Marvin Lewis has tried to fill needs via free agency.

The reason it hasn't happened, I think, is not for lack of trying, but because Lewis placed a value on those guys and refuses to overpay. While it may hurt now, because we see all these people walk through our doors and go to another team, I think it's a strategy that will pay off in the long term. I think Lewis is more interested in building a Patriots type of dynasty than a team that gets a burst of improvement with the addition of a free agent, and then falls back a step or two when they can't afford everyone the following season.

Now, you may disagree with the Bengals on who is or is not worth the sacrifice, but I think the philosohpy is the same...

[bengalindian]

Couldn't have said it better myself, skyline. The Bengals don't have to try and pick FAs like every other team to improve. Marvin needed some time to get everyone he wanted/needed, and this will be the year they get over the hump.

[HairOnFire]

Here's what I find interesting.

I hear complaints that the Bengals didn't do more. But I'm not hearing anyone claim that the other playoff contending teams in this division have significantly improved themselves in free agency. Apparently it's okay for the Steelers to stand pat based upon their won/loss record, but why ignore the fact that they just lost in free agency a past 1st round pick (Burress) as well as a 2nd rounder (Bell). And again, the Ravens made several upgrades, but lost Hartwell, one of this years premier free agents.

And oh my freaking gawd, have you seen what Cleveland has done this offseason? We're talking about a potential dynasty awakening and rising from the cellar like some dream crushing hellbeast. Fear the 'stains!!!!!

Worry, worry, worry.

[HoosierCat]

I hear complaints that the Bengals didn't do more. But I'm not hearing anyone claim that the other playoff contending teams in this division have significantly improved themselves in free agency.

For my part, I've made that point several times. I can go dig up the threads if you care.

But to repeat myself, Pitt could easily take several steps back and still finish with 10+ wins. And so far their only real step back has been letting Burress go, and that was a small one at most. Hard to consider Bell much of a loss, considering they went 15-1 almost completely without him.

Baltimore lost Hartwell, but more than made up for that in their other signings. Net-net they look like a much better team to me right now...and they still have draft picks to come, just like us.

Cleveland is rebuilding, yes. But so what? Must I remind you that last year the Cleveland Browns completely totally and absolutely sucked...yet they still beat the Bengals once (soundly) and the next time the two teams met we needed 58 points to even the score?

[The_Next_Big_Thing]

Net-net they look like a much better team to me right now...and they still have draft picks to come, just like us.

You're crazy to think they are a much better team right now. A little better? Maybe. But the guys they got have to learn the system. Our guys don't. They have had a season to get comfortable, and this makes a huge difference.

Signing high profile free agent after high profile free agent and expecting them to immediately fit the system doesn't work. Just ask Dan Snyder in Washington.