Tired excuses?

[HairOnFire]

According to the NFL Networks busiest talking news head, Adam Schefter, the Bengals will be seeing a much less demanding version of Marvin Lewis when training camp opens this season. Seems Lewis has studied film and spent months conducting interviews that has led him to believe that the single greatest reason for the Bengals long history of poor season starts is due to the team being worked too hard during the preseason, resulting in tired players.

Changes proposed include shorter practices, far fewer two-a-day practice sessions, more practice time devoted to 2nd and 3rd team units in the hope that starting units will stay fresher and sharper, and last but not least important...a new training camp schedule that has the Bengals shutting things down three days earlier than last year.

My first reaction to the news? Well, I have to admit that I immediately attempted to bite my own teeth. But that's just me. How about you?

[jditty47]

something has to change so i dont blame him for trying something different. i for one am sick of the terrible starts.

[BengalPappaw]

According to the NFL Networks busiest talking news head, Adam Schefter, the Bengals will be seeing a much less demanding version of Marvin Lewis when training camp opens this season. Seems Lewis has studied film and spent months conducting interviews that has led him to believe that the single greatest reason for the Bengals long history of poor season starts is due to the team being worked too hard during the preseason, resulting in tired players.

Changes proposed include shorter practices, far fewer two-a-day practice sessions, more practice time devoted to 2nd and 3rd team units in the hope that starting units will stay fresher and sharper, and last but not least important...a new training camp schedule that has the Bengals shutting things down three days earlier than last year.

My first reaction to the news? Well, I have to admit that I immediately attempted to bite my own teeth. But that's just me. How about you?

OH NO!!!!

Please remember -- This is exactly what Dick Lebeau said and did -- AND the problem was we were out of shape by the end of the third quarter and the players were sucking the wind out of the stadium gasping for air.

This sounds tooooo familiar

Lets not go backwards!! -- We lost because we didn't have the talent and teamwork of the other teams. I like seeing our guys going hard to the very end of the game.

I hope and trust that Marvin will not go to extremes.

MARVIN -- PLEASE MAKE SURE THE PLAYERS ARE IN SHAPE!!! We still want/need to win! :player:

[Sox]

I don't buy it.

Marvin seems to believe in his players being in game-shape.Take that report with a grain of salt.

[membengal]

Even if ML changed things up a bit this camp, do you really think he would head north with the players not in game shape? Really?

I don't.

I trust ML to find the right balance.

Really, I think their slow starts are pretty explainable...in year 1, getting used to ML and his system took tome. In year 2, working in pretty much a rookie QB. That will be a much more veteran team with experience at key positions in the first game this year...they will hit the ground running.

I am not bothered by that report or anything ML does in the least.

[jjakq27]

I was concerned when I read that article. After Bruce Coslet took over for Dave Shula they went 7-2. The next year he adopted the "they are professionals" mantra and the team went 1-7 to start the year in 1997. Le Beau takes over for Coslet in 2000 and goes 4-9, then goes 6-10 after a 2-0 start in 2001. We've seen guys take their foot off of the pedal too often to not be sceptical. But I do think this is not your father's Bengals team anymore.

One thing that never used to happen pre-Marvin was the nearly 100% participation in the "voluntary" workouts that start in April. Waiting until training camp to get in shape or working out with a trainer at home isn't the same as being here in the spring. So I believe that most of these guys are already in good shape before camp starts.

Secondly, I don't think the guys will be standing around like they were when LeBeau was here. As long as everyone is moving during practice, I am not that concerned that he wants to shorten it. Hopefully he knows what to do to keep the practices effective.

Palmer is entering year two and should be better than he was during the first half of the season and the run defense also improved during the course of the year. We started off playing the Jets (Curtis Martin), the Ravens (J. Lewis) and the Steelers (Bettis/Staley) in three of the first four and couldn't stop any of them. Hopefully we can upgrade the run-D through the draft and adding Brian Robinson will help too.

I also doubt that we will have anything as weird as the Tampa/Hurricane fiasco of game one of the preseason last year.

[skyline]

I don't think the poor starts have anything whatsoever to do with being tired. I think the above poster's were correct...1st year adjusting to Marvin, and 2nd year having a rookie qb. At the same time, they can't keep making excuses. I think part of it is that they start off playing a little too tight. I think it's more mental than anything else. Regardless, I'm confident that Marvin will have the problem fixed whatever it is...

[HoosierCat]

According to the NFL Networks busiest talking news head, Adam Schefter, the Bengals will be seeing a much less demanding version of Marvin Lewis when training camp opens this season. Seems Lewis has studied film and spent months conducting interviews that has led him to believe that the single greatest reason for the Bengals long history of poor season starts is due to the team being worked too hard during the preseason, resulting in tired players.

Changes proposed include shorter practices, far fewer two-a-day practice sessions, more practice time devoted to 2nd and 3rd team units in the hope that starting units will stay fresher and sharper, and last but not least important...a new training camp schedule that has the Bengals shutting things down three days earlier than last year.

My first reaction to the news? Well, I have to admit that I immediately attempted to bite my own teeth.

Yeah, me too.

I have a tough time accepting the "tired" line. If they're so tired, why do they start winning games as the season goes on? I have trouble believing the regular season is more restful than camp!

That said, given the lack of roster change this year compared to the last two, there's arguably less of a need for intensive drilling. And I've little doubt that Marvin will spin things up if he sees players slacking off or not giving 100%, even if the workouts are shorter.

I wonder, tho, if this isn't a reaction to all the injuries the Bengals suffered in camp last year. Perry, Abdullah, Simmons, Deltha, Braham, Steinbach...all of 'em were already down for the count or missed early games because of injuries in camp or surgeries that hadn't fully healed. If anything made Marvin rethink his camp style, I would bet it's that, not the tired "tired" line.

[BengalszoneBilly]

Like my high school coach used to say: "Are you ladies tired!?! Awwwww. Well that just means we need some more wind sprints!! " After a few sessions of that, nobody was "tired" again, wheather or not they really were!

[HairOnFire]

I was concerned when I read that article. After Bruce Coslet took over for Dave Shula they went 7-2. The next year he adopted the "they are professionals" mantra and the team went 1-7 to start the year in 1997. Le Beau takes over for Coslet in 2000 and goes 4-9, then goes 6-10 after a 2-0 start in 2001. We've seen guys take their foot off of the pedal too often to not be sceptical.

I think you've summed up my own reaction very well. Simply put, despite our faith in Marvin some of us remain skeptical exactly because we've heard this sort of explanation before and we remember the results far too well. Sheesh, after the ax fell one of the players claimed that LeBeau's greatest failing as a head coach was the incredibly flawed decision to treat his players "like men". And that decision meant, among other things...letting the players take greater control over their own conditioning programs.

Granted, we all believe that Marvin is a different breed of cat. He's earned our respect and trust. But I'll admit without hesitation that after hearing the news it felt familiar enough to cause me to shift uneasily in my chair.

[HairOnFire]

Really, I think their slow starts are pretty explainable...in year 1, getting used to ML and his system took tome. In year 2, working in pretty much a rookie QB. That will be a much more veteran team with experience at key positions in the first game this year...they will hit the ground running.

I agree, the slow starts of the last two seasons are easily explainable. So why propose some fairly dramatic changes in how practices are conducted if none of us can remember examples of poor conditioning under his watch?

[membengal]

Really, I think their slow starts are pretty explainable...in year 1, getting used to ML and his system took tome. In year 2, working in pretty much a rookie QB. That will be a much more veteran team with experience at key positions in the first game this year...they will hit the ground running.

I agree, the slow starts of the last two seasons are easily explainable. So why propose some fairly dramatic changes in how practices are conducted if none of us can remember examples of poor conditioning under his watch?

Well, I happen to think their conditioning is going to be just fine, and wouldn't be affected by backing off a tad in the camp.

Differences from 2005 to LeBeau's disaster? Too numerous to mention, but the main one that comes to my mind as being pertinent here is the on-going off-season strength and conditioning program. When they report to camp now, they are light years ahead of where they were. So that's one thing. Changing some aspects of how ML runs camp does not mean that he would change the intenisty of his practices or their preparation, and I am sure that if he were asked about that concern he would laugh.

I don't see it as a valid 2005 concern that they will all of a sudden go back to being lumpy and out of shape if ML pulls back in a spot or two in August. Too much work goes into it before then for me to ever worry about the LeBeau days.

[HairOnFire]

I have a tough time accepting the "tired" line. If they're so tired, why do they start winning games as the season goes on? I have trouble believing the regular season is more restful than camp!

Didn't the pre-Marvin explanation of the annual "Dead Cat Bounce" claim that the early season conditioning level of past Bengal teams was so poor that the team become competitive only after playing itself into shape? Funny thing about that is the argument was thought to be obsolete after Marvin revamped the weight room, changed the menu in the lunchroom, emphasized more aerobic conditioning, and increased the length and pace of practice sessions.

Frankly, I can't remember anything related to the starts of the last two seasons that implied the Bengals were tired or poorly conditioned.

[HairOnFire]

Changing some aspects of how ML runs camp does not mean that he would change the intenisty of his practices or their preparation, and I am sure that if he were asked about that concern he would laugh.

Marvin might have good reason to laugh at the idea that he's gone soft, a point that not even Schefter attempted to make, but he'd have to be a very cruel man to laugh at the teeth gnashing and occasional squirming worry of any Bengal fan who has lived through the lost decade. We're a wounded bunch that needs to be handled with care.

Besides, it seems to me that almost all of the proposed changes mentioned directly impact the intensity level of practices. They have to, right? Shorter practices. Shorter camp. Fewer two-a-days. Less practice time devoted to the starting units in the hope that they remain fresher. It's all about reducing the overall intensity level, right?

[membengal]

Changing some aspects of how ML runs camp does not mean that he would change the intenisty of his practices or their preparation, and I am sure that if he were asked about that concern he would laugh.

Marvin might have good reason to laugh at the idea that he's gone soft, a point that not even Schefter attempted to make, but he'd have to be a very cruel man to laugh at the teeth gnashing and occasional squirming worry of any Bengal fan who has lived through the lost decade. We're a wounded bunch that needs to be handled with care.

Besides, it seems to me that almost all of the proposed changes mentioned directly impact the intensity level of practices. They have to, right? Shorter practices. Shorter camp. Fewer two-a-days. Less practice time devoted to the starting units in the hope that they remain fresher. It's all about reducing the overall intensity level, right?

See, I don't read shorter practices as equaling less intense practices. If anything, I can see ML and coaches taking the intensity up several notches as they seek to get done what they need to get done in a shorter timeframe. So, no, I don't read shorter as "less intense" and, actually, I kind of laugh myself at the poor Bengals player who might test ML on that and make the "shorter" practices lengthen out to a standard sized practice as punishment.

As for the end of camp, everyone always seems ready to break camp by that point anyway, and I would expect that ML will get them right back to work up at PB.

I know what you are saying about the past, man, I for sure am right there with you, but this just seems like unnecessary worrying to me. I know it is the slow time news wise, but I am guessing when camp gets here, it's going to look a whole lot like the past years in terms of intensity.

[HairOnFire]

I know what you are saying about the past, man, I for sure am right there with you, but this just seems like unnecessary worrying to me.

Well, let's not overstate the worry angle. Obviously I'm just having a little fun at my own expense when I joke about trying to bite my own teeth. Ehhh?

For the most part I'm simply wondering out loud about what prompted the changes? If we agree that the slow starts under Marvin can be explained by other factors why make potentially dramatic changes when there's been little evidence of a conditioning problem? Seriously, has anyone previously questioned the shape players were in the last two seasons? Not likely, right? In fact, I'd say the opposite was true. Huge strides were made.

As for the slow news angle, I didn't bother mentioning that the very same program included a long interview with Akili Smith due to my belief that it would be an obvious waste of time. But news about changes in the conditioning programs, practice schedules, and preseason goals seemed like fair game....especially if something about the news seemed eerily familiar.

[membengal]

Yeesh...thanks for avoiding the Akili Smith mention. Maybe they can go find David Klingler too?

ML is confused about the slow starts, and concerned about them, as I think I recall him mentioning that as a point of emphasis, and I am guessing he does not not want to assume it is what we think it is (new program and then rookie QB) without tinkering? Maybe that's it.

Could be what else was mentioned on this thread, that he is simply a bit concerned about the gawdawful injuries that hit this team last camp. Arguably, the injuries had a good bit to do with their slow start as it really bit into their depth, so maybe he is trying to figure out how to avoid that. If so, it's kind of pointless, as injuries happen, and contact cannot be avoided. That WOULD smack of the LeBeau regime.

I am guessing, when push comes to shove, it will look a lot like the camps we have come to expect from ML.

[Tampa Bengal]

I also doubt that we will have anything as weird as the Tampa/Hurricane fiasco of game one of the preseason last year.

Yeah thats it blame Hurricane Charlie for the slow start.

I for one didn't think the team started slow due to bad conditioning but the factors of a new QB vs. good teams.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

Frankly, I can't remember anything related to the starts of the last two seasons that implied the Bengals were tired or poorly conditioned.

Me neither, I always thought it was a result of how the roster was managed and the general management handling of the team itself more than anything.

I also think ML's changes might be a bit of a reward/show of respect for all of the off-season work and enthusiasm the players are doing on their own now versus in the past. These guys want to win and have leaders now versus the dregs and cry babies that have been here in the past, who didn't show up for camps, came in out of shape etc...,

I've heard comments from players that ML pushes them pretty hard even in mini-camps. They acted like it was unusual in the NFL.

But, whatever, he is focusing on their start - that is important - it breeds confidence and sets your team up for the rest of the year obviously.

They have to get over that hump somehow. I remember having dead legs constantly going into the first game of a season in college - only when the routine lightened up during the season did you get them back after a couple of weeks. Granted as a WR/DB/KR I had a lot more running to do than anyone else. But it's something to try and a fine line as a coach to walk - never knowing what's too much or too little until you get used to your players' limits and reactions etc...,

[jjakq27]

I also doubt that we will have anything as weird as the Tampa/Hurricane fiasco of game one of the preseason last year.

Yeah thats it blame Hurricane Charlie for the slow start.

I for one didn't think the team started slow due to bad conditioning but the factors of a new QB vs. good teams.

I didn't say Tampa Bengal I said Tampa/Hurricane. Lighten up. Two games, in what, four days is pretty normal.

[HoosierCat]

Frankly, I can't remember anything related to the starts of the last two seasons that implied the Bengals were tired or poorly conditioned.

Neither can I. Which is why I think it's more likely an attempt simply to come out of camp healthier. Clearly, guys were being pushed, or pushing themselves, last year, and IMHO it turned around and bit the team in the arse. Go check the bengals.com files from before the Jets game. Guys like O'Neal and Simmons were dinged in camp, kept practicing the week leading up to the game, but then were out come gameday. Braham made it through a few plays, trying to play a week and a half after getting scoped. It's all well and good to talk about toughing it out and playing through pain, but all it got us last year was down three starters on opening day -- and given how close the game was it's not hard to argue that that was the difference.

[HairOnFire]

Neither can I. Which is why I think it's more likely an attempt simply to come out of camp healthier. Clearly, guys were being pushed, or pushing themselves, last year, and IMHO it turned around and bit the team in the arse.

Perfectly logical. So why do I still have at least three problems with the idea?

1 - The previous season the same conditioning program and practice schedule produced one of the healthiest Bengal teams in memory. Well, that's not exactly true as Marvin was able to schedule an additional minicamp due to it being his first season as head coach. So the workload was actually greater and the practice schedule was as long as NFL rules allow. In addition, you have to assume that Marvin started his first year with a poorer conditioned team than the one he coached last season. So why assume that it was the demands of the conditioning program and the heavier practice load that resulted in more injuries last year? Isn't it just as likely that the Bengals simply got rudely fingered by fate?

2 - None of the proposed changes deals directly with injured players continuing to practice or play....probably due to the desire to evaluate each example on an individual basis. So if mistakes were made last year concerning players being asked to practice and play in preseason games despite nagging injuries...well...don't you have to wonder why those mistakes wouldn't be repeated should they somehow occur despite a reduced practice load.

3 - Last, preventing injuries wasn't specifically mentioned as one of the reasons prompting the changes....probably because most aren't predictable....unless the subject being discussed involves Chris Perry. (Sorry, I couldn't help myself.)

[BengalsOwn]

Marvin Lewis announced that training camp would be shortened like a month ago at least.

Why are we still talking about this?

[HairOnFire]

I also think ML's changes might be a bit of a reward/show of respect for all of the off-season work and enthusiasm the players are doing on their own now versus in the past. These guys want to win and have leaders now versus the dregs and cry babies that have been here in the past, who didn't show up for camps, came in out of shape etc...,

I agree, and if true then it's not only understandable why it feels so uncomfortably familiar...yet different.

Regardless, I guess we all sit back and watch how things play out, right? No need to worry about conditioning or injuries until there's a reason to worry, ehh? Besides, now that I've actually tried to bite my own teeth I can appreciate more fully what an act of futility it is. (((Shrug)))

Anyways, now that we've covered all of the bases......who wants to talk about the Akili interview?

[williamnminor]

Without the horrible starts of the last 2 seasons, we would be sitting here talking about trying to make the playoffs for the third straight year. It is an obstacle that we MUST overcome if we are to take the next step. So, I am for any change, as long as it does not come at the cost of us being out of shape. I trust Marvin to find a happy medium and have us fresh and ready.